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Author Topic: Evolution and Religion  (Read 16554 times)

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Online Doomsday

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #150 on: March 29, 2011, 01:54:10 AM »
Well, proofs are best left to mathematics. It's all about evidence, and there is overwhelming evidence for gravity and evolution.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #151 on: March 29, 2011, 02:01:25 AM »
First, remember that everything in science is always just a theory.  Nothing is proven.  Gravity is still a theory. 

Please read this with regards to the definition of scientific theories.

Offline Will

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #152 on: March 29, 2011, 02:06:59 AM »
If you're going to call creationism a theory (which it's not; see Oniya's post), and use that as sufficient reason to have it taught in schools, then I could easily come up with any number of outlandish, off-the-cuff 'theories' with little to no supporting evidence.  And then demand that they be taught in schools.

Offline Noelle

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #153 on: March 29, 2011, 07:17:03 AM »
First, remember that everything in science is always just a theory.  Nothing is proven.  Gravity is still a theory.  Scientists have come to accept that not everything can be proven, but they can make educated guesses and come to a conclusion of what is the most likely answer.

This brand of thinking is dangerous, as I see it as only a half-step away from saying "how do we know anything?!" which is a whole different brand of thinking that I'm not sure I can begin to even touch on and is counterproductive to any kind of discussion anyway.

Quote
I realize that I've gone off on this huge tangent trying to answer your question, so I'll pull myself back to my original point.  In my opinion, both should be taught in schools as theories (which they both are).  Evolution, though there is a lot more evidence that backs it up and is the answer that most fits what we already know about evolution and animals today, is still a theory.  Creationism has nothing to back it up and is pretty much just a story, but it is still a theory.  If we want to be fair, we will teach both of them as such, and lay out all of the evidence to let people make their own informed decisions.

Here is the interesting thing about your post -- you use the word 'myth' to describe what the ancient people used to teach their people. Myth is what we use to describe those narratives that the Greeks and Romans used in terms of their religion, but Christianity's take on the matter is suddenly a theory. Why is it any different? Both are using faith and religious techniques to try and explain the supposedly unexplained, but nobody is pushing for stories about the Yggdrasil or Zeus to be taught in our schools. Why is one religion given more legitimacy when the others are simply entertaining myths? That's blatantly against our separation of church and state, for one, and that doesn't even begin to cover the fact that religion is not on the same level as science, full stop.

Offline Jude

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #154 on: March 29, 2011, 07:19:25 AM »
There's nothing wrong with teaching people in school what Christians think.  The problem is, it has no place in a science class.  Creationism belongs in a world religions course, as does discussions of the specific forms that it takes, not in a biology class where evolution is discussed.  No one's trying to pretend religion doesn't exist or expunge it from reality, we just want it discussed in its proper context.

Offline ShadowRaven4d4

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #155 on: March 29, 2011, 08:16:40 AM »
Figured I would drop in on this discussion...

I can agree to something like Creationism being taught in a religion studies course...but is creationism itself  outlined in the bible? I'm not that familiar with Religious texts so I am not privy to specifics.

I had always believed Evolution had evidence in that, to my knowledge, we have not found ANY remains of modern animals in the Jurassic period, or really any period where our large reptilian friends the dinosaurs lived. If no proof  exists these animals existed at that point in history, where did they come from?

I find the whole "Creationism vs Evolution" idea to be rather ridiculous, my experience in dealing with Creationist beliefs is that its Evolution with the phrase "God does it" slapped on the package.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #156 on: March 29, 2011, 09:44:37 AM »
I can agree to something like Creationism being taught in a religion studies course...but is creationism itself  outlined in the bible? I'm not that familiar with Religious texts so I am not privy to specifics.

Creationism is, very specifically, the origin of life as described in the first chapter of Genesis.  There is a second creation narrative in the second chapter (starting at verse 4), but it seems to be mostly overlooked by most people who wish to teach creationism vs. evolution.

(Interestingly, in the second version, man is created before the plants and animals.  Also, 'Adam and Eve' as separate creative thoughts don't show up in the Chapter 1 narrative - mankind is created 'male and female' in one stroke.)

Offline ShadowRaven4d4

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #157 on: March 29, 2011, 10:03:34 AM »
Creationism is, very specifically, the origin of life as described in the first chapter of Genesis.  There is a second creation narrative in the second chapter (starting at verse 4), but it seems to be mostly overlooked by most people who wish to teach creationism vs. evolution.

(Interestingly, in the second version, man is created before the plants and animals.  Also, 'Adam and Eve' as separate creative thoughts don't show up in the Chapter 1 narrative - mankind is created 'male and female' in one stroke.)

Now that seems a very interesting little error doesn't it? I have always looked at the stories of the bible as just that, stories. Moral lessons not a literal description of humanities origins.

Offline Silk

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #158 on: March 29, 2011, 11:49:40 AM »
But only a small portion of biblicle stories have any value as moral lessons. I don't think anyone would dispute that the guidelines on how to keep slaves, or stoning rebellious children is of no moral value in the modern world.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #159 on: March 29, 2011, 12:48:00 PM »
Remember, though, that most casual exposure to biblical stories is to the ones with some sort of lesson, and not to the endless lists that you find in books like Leviticus (laws), Kings (genealogy), and Numbers (censuses).  Ask a group of thirty people what their favorite Bible story is, and I'm willing to bet that none of those books is mentioned.  Heck, I surprised my catechism teacher by pulling something out of Revelations.  I liked the one with the dragon and the woman clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet.  The teacher couldn't find it.   O:)

Offline ShadowRaven4d4

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #160 on: March 29, 2011, 02:55:21 PM »
Remember, though, that most casual exposure to biblical stories is to the ones with some sort of lesson, and not to the endless lists that you find in books like Leviticus (laws), Kings (genealogy), and Numbers (censuses).  Ask a group of thirty people what their favorite Bible story is, and I'm willing to bet that none of those books is mentioned.  Heck, I surprised my catechism teacher by pulling something out of Revelations.  I liked the one with the dragon and the woman clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet.  The teacher couldn't find it.   O:)

I had to read bits from the bible when I was in a private christian school during my middle school years, I guess the teacher never had us read any impacting stories because I don't remember anything from that time.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #161 on: March 29, 2011, 03:09:16 PM »
I was raised Catholic, and I'm also a compulsive reader.  (The first month I spent living in the same house as Mr. Oniya was very... enlightening.)  So, my exposure was a bit more than the 'average' Catholic.  Even so, I've seen books of 'Favorite Bible Stories' in book stores, and you get things like Jonah and the Whale, Noah's Ark, the Nativity Story, Daniel in the Lions' Den, David and Goliath, Samson and the Philistines - those are the ones I'm just pulling out of the air.  You definitely don't get things like the Song of Solomon - which is actually some fun reading, as a dialogue between two lovers. 

Basically, what I'm saying is that there are certain stories that are definitely moral lessons, and those are the ones that someone who doesn't study it, or go to services (you get some of the less exciting stuff during the readings) is likely to be familiar with.  It's the same way that most people know a handful of Greek myths, but wouldn't recognize many of Aristophanes' or even Ovid's works

Offline ShadowRaven4d4

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #162 on: March 29, 2011, 04:26:34 PM »
I was raised Catholic, and I'm also a compulsive reader.  (The first month I spent living in the same house as Mr. Oniya was very... enlightening.)  So, my exposure was a bit more than the 'average' Catholic.  Even so, I've seen books of 'Favorite Bible Stories' in book stores, and you get things like Jonah and the Whale, Noah's Ark, the Nativity Story, Daniel in the Lions' Den, David and Goliath, Samson and the Philistines - those are the ones I'm just pulling out of the air.  You definitely don't get things like the Song of Solomon - which is actually some fun reading, as a dialogue between two lovers. 

Basically, what I'm saying is that there are certain stories that are definitely moral lessons, and those are the ones that someone who doesn't study it, or go to services (you get some of the less exciting stuff during the readings) is likely to be familiar with.  It's the same way that most people know a handful of Greek myths, but wouldn't recognize many of Aristophanes' or even Ovid's works

Most of what people learn about any particular story is hearsay from family or friends rather than an actual source. A friend of mine thought that The wife of Hades(forget her name) was a mortal, but I told her "no her mother was the goddess of the harvest, thus she was a goddess herself." which she argued against until she looked it up. It doesn't help people get their stories straight when sources don't agree with one another.

I have not heard half of the stories you listed and I thought I had at least a moderate familiarity with biblical stories, but tell me, in short, what is the Song of Solomon? At its core not word for word, the setting and circumstances

Offline Oniya

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Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #163 on: March 29, 2011, 07:33:40 PM »
It's supposed to be a dialogue between a man and a woman, moving from courtship to consummation.  It's about as erotic as anything in the Bible ever gets, which is why I say it's fun reading.  The priests say it's an allegory about the relationship between God and the Church, or God and Israel - but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Offline ShadowRaven4d4

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #164 on: March 30, 2011, 08:22:04 AM »
It's supposed to be a dialogue between a man and a woman, moving from courtship to consummation.  It's about as erotic as anything in the Bible ever gets, which is why I say it's fun reading.  The priests say it's an allegory about the relationship between God and the Church, or God and Israel - but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Ahhh, I do find it amusing when any individual tries to say something akin too "That's not a cigar that's a glass of wine." Clearly it is in fact...a cigar. But then so many things in the bible are open to interpretation the Priests might just be assuming The Song of Solomon is also so, at least at a level deeper than it really is.

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Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #165 on: March 31, 2011, 12:00:47 PM »
oooh colls I just saw a special on the vatacan on the history channel.
they've embraced science a LOT more than I thought, in fact many priests are still part scientist.
The Vatacan actually has a scientific division, which does a lot of cool stuff. and the pope's summer residence has an observitory right next door.

Also around in the early 1900s they completely abandoned the idea of biblical literalisim. and started catching up with the times. Pope John paul the second completely changed the way the place works and thinks towards the media and science.

They seem to have silently remained at the forefront of theoretical research, because the vatacan doesn't have to compete for grant money or prove their research has a "practical financial or industrial pourpose"

interisting quote from one of an astrologer priest "people always ask me, if you find aliens out there, would you baptise them? my response is, yes if they asked, we never know, H2O might be poisonious to them"

it was an interisting special... and I'm not even cathloic.
oh cool thing, the vatacan now has a website, and you can actually chat with the pope nowadays thanks to the internet.

Offline meikle

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #166 on: April 01, 2011, 01:54:52 PM »
Ahhh, I do find it amusing when any individual tries to say something akin too "That's not a cigar that's a glass of wine." Clearly it is in fact...a cigar. But then so many things in the bible are open to interpretation the Priests might just be assuming The Song of Solomon is also so, at least at a level deeper than it really is.

It doesn't help that the man and wife metaphor has precedent earlier in the bible (Hosea is a good example, using his relationship with his wife to suggest that Israel is like a disloyal prostitute but the Lord loves her anyway, more or less.  Yeah, there's a little more to it than that.)  That's more explicitly set out as a metaphor, though.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #167 on: April 01, 2011, 02:11:47 PM »
Right.  The Song has been compared and found similar to other Middle Eastern 'love poems' that have nothing to do with religious themes.

Offline Shjade

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #168 on: April 10, 2011, 01:15:44 PM »
Which begs the question: why is it in the Bible?

Offline Silk

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #169 on: April 10, 2011, 04:23:53 PM »
Which begs the question: why is it in the Bible?

Why is there as much as there is in the bible, most of it rarely gets mentioned. A prime example is the book of ruth.

Offline meikle

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #170 on: April 11, 2011, 03:45:33 PM »
Which begs the question: why is it in the Bible?

Because when someone like King Solomon writes a love poem, you don't just throw it out. :p

Offline Shjade

Re: Evolution and Religion
« Reply #171 on: April 17, 2011, 05:11:38 PM »
Of course you don't throw it out. You publish it in Solomon's Soul Songs Vol. 2: Solomon Got His Groove Back.

King Solomon may have been a cool guy, but that doesn't translate into, "We should put his serenade in this religious text!"