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Author Topic: To "British" RPers...  (Read 6842 times)

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Offline Cheka Man

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2010, 10:33:43 PM »
I have Asperger's Syndrome. And I give my benifits to my parents who look after me, I only see 50 a month of it in pocket money,although I'm 31 years old,so I certainly don't live like a proverbial prince. Still, I have my freedom.If I could be a paid writer I would, but I have nothing publishable.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2010, 10:08:00 AM »
What again is wrong they are still not breaking any laws and the government in the UK is Allowing This, so maybe the government is the one being immoral they make the laws and regulations that are followed. This family is just taking advantage of the system and that is natural if a wolf has a choice of hunting or going after unprotected livestock they will generally go after the easy meal barring a gatekeeper such as a farmer with a gun and dog being in the way. The government can be seen as the farmer.

So if the government fails in its role is it really the fault of the family to have the majority of the blame or the ones that are supposed to be in the decision making char as to who gets these benefits.

Offline Stan'Topic starter

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2010, 11:40:25 AM »
Quote
So if the government fails in its role is it really the fault of the family to have the majority of the blame or the ones that are supposed to be in the decision making char as to who gets these benefits.

This was the origin of my argument.  I wasn't only moaning about the fact they were spounging off of the Government.

It is titled "To "British" RPers..." because I'm warning people not to vote Labour in when the General Election is next month, otherwise we're going to keep seeing more and more of this happening.  Between paying benefits to able-bodied people like Mr Davey, and giving immigrants free things, it's only going to get worse under Labour.  Of course, there's no guarantee that things will be different under Tories or Lib Dems, but a change is what we need.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 11:42:10 AM by Stan' »

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2010, 11:50:21 AM »
Quote
So if the government fails in its role is it really the fault of the family to have the majority of the blame or the ones that are supposed to be in the decision making char as to who gets these benefi

Also...

The government that makes the laws is in place to do so because of those who vote for them as well as those who don't vote at all.

I have a friend here in the States who used to moan and groan about a particular political issue and when I got tired of listening I suggested he get up off his bum and do something.

He's gone from a whining layabout who never voted to a very active supporter for his issue and votes in every election. 

So if you see something you don't like get out there and campaign against it.  Write, email and/or phone your government representatives.  Join groups that support your point of view and give the time they need to get the message across.  It's as simple as "put up or shut up" and instead of sitting around complaining, work to change the law or keep your mouth shut.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2010, 01:20:54 PM »
This was the origin of my argument.  I wasn't only moaning about the fact they were spounging off of the Government.

It is titled "To "British" RPers..." because I'm warning people not to vote Labour in when the General Election is next month, otherwise we're going to keep seeing more and more of this happening.  Between paying benefits to able-bodied people like Mr Davey, and giving immigrants free things, it's only going to get worse under Labour.  Of course, there's no guarantee that things will be different under Tories or Lib Dems, but a change is what we need.

I'd be curious to see how the Lib Dems would do if they took charge. I wouldn't vote Tory if you paid me :) However, since I'm not in the UK anymore, my vote is a moot point anyway.

Offline Jude

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2010, 03:17:49 PM »
This was the origin of my argument.  I wasn't only moaning about the fact they were spounging off of the Government.

It is titled "To "British" RPers..." because I'm warning people not to vote Labour in when the General Election is next month, otherwise we're going to keep seeing more and more of this happening.  Between paying benefits to able-bodied people like Mr Davey, and giving immigrants free things, it's only going to get worse under Labour.  Of course, there's no guarantee that things will be different under Tories or Lib Dems, but a change is what we need.
I see your anecdote, and raise you this:  http://www.nowpublic.com/germany_unemployed_man_dies_from_starvation_as_welfare_cutback_reform_in_germany_shows_effect

VOTE LABOR IN UK UNLESS YOU WANT PEOPLE TO STARVE TO DEATH.

Disclaimer:  the preceding post isn't intended to be taken as a serious, literal argument.  It is only intended to point out the absurdity of endorsing voting out an entire political party based on an example cited by one news story without statistics to look at the broader picture.  Product not safe for children under the age of seven.  Please use in a well ventilated room.  Side effects may include:  prosticular fortitude, intestinal-spontaneous-invitro-exposion, and anal warts.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 03:19:20 PM by Jude »

Offline Cheka Man

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2010, 07:48:32 PM »
Vote Lib Dem if you want PR to freeze the Tories out for good.

Offline Stan'Topic starter

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2010, 07:25:22 AM »
It is only intended to point out the absurdity of endorsing voting out an entire political party based on an example cited by one news story without statistics to look at the broader picture.

You clearly don't live in the United Kingdom, and thus do not know how bad the Labour Government actually is.

Offline Trieste

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2010, 08:01:09 AM »
You clearly don't live in the US, and thus do not know how bad the other side of the governmental coin can get.

Perspective from outside the country, especially on alarmist views like what you've prevented, are not a bad thing. :P

Offline Jude

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2010, 03:25:35 PM »
I'm gonna guess your countrymen don't know how bad things can get either if you feel the need to post this here in an attempt to influence people by blind irrational knee-jerk journalism.

Offline Stan'Topic starter

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2010, 06:15:43 PM »
We know how bad it can get.

Of course it's interesting to hear people's perspective from other countries, but I think it's safe to say I know more about what's happening in my own country than someone living in North America or mainland Europe, just like I can't give thorough opinions on minor stories in other countries.

Offline Trieste

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2010, 06:30:47 PM »
Ok.

How has the Labour party specifically brought this about? How will another party fix it? What potential problems will that bring up? How will they be solved?

You forget that we already went through our elections more recently, and we have plenty of hot-button topics of our own. I'm sure the US is not the only country to do so, and I'm sure the UK is not the only country that has had a welfare debate. "You don't know! You just don't know!" is not a valid argument. It's perfectly easy to point something out that you don't like, but the real rub is fixing it.

So.

How would you fix it, and why should people vote the way you're saying they should?

Offline Neroon

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2010, 06:15:13 AM »
Looking at it, my cynical answer is that the Labour Party has brought this state of affairs about simply by being in power for the last thirteen-odd years. The fact is, that when one party becomes so dominant, the other side- in this case the Tories- will become increasingly vehement in its condemnations and stories like this will find their way into the news.  The fact that the benefits should have been cut when the husband dropped his job seems to have passed most people by.  Either the story isn't giving all the facts or the family is guilty of benefit fraud.  In either case, it is not the system that is to blame but the individuals making and assessing the benefit claims.  Of course, it is easier to make a party-political point by ignoring these inconvenient facts.

It was exactly like this in '97 when Labour ousted the Tories.  Their campaign was essentially negative, focusing on party sleaze, the unequal society and a damaged economy produced by the previous 18 years of the Conservative government.  The fact that the economy wasn't in that bad a shape (for the first four years of the Labour government, the Tory fiscal plans were strictly adhered to by the then Chanceller, Mr Gordon Brown) passed the electorate by.  Quite simply they were tired of the Conservatives and they wanted the change that Labour, under Tony Blair, promised and as a result, they were willing to swallow the extravagant claims of New Labour about what they would do and about how incompetent and corrupt the Tories were.

The situation today is essentially similar. Gordon Brown is a deeply unpopular figure with the majority of electorate and as a result they are willing to overlook David Cameron's and Nick Clegg's lack of substance if it will get rid of Brown.  Personally, I find this a deeply unfortunate situation as it shows that the campaigns are focusing more on the personalities- and the perceived personalities more than the real personalities, to boot- of the party leaders than on the policies that the parties stand for.  In a sense, this is nothing new: Margaret Thatcher's Conservative win against Michael Foot's Labour Party in the '83 election was essentially a matter of personality.  People were prepared to vote for "that bloody woman" if only because the public's perception of Michael Foot was so poor.  Despite and Oxford degree and a distinguished career in journalism and in parliament, he was portrayed by the press as a bumbling, senile eccentric and as such he- and by extension his party- became unelectable.  It was then, that the Labour party re-evaluated its methods and, to a great extent, its core beliefs to become the powerful publicity machine that won the election in '97.

The trouble with the effectiveness of the New Labour election machine is that it has been copied by the Tories and Liberal Democrats.  Thus we have the Blair-like figures of Cameron and Clegg leading their parties and the emphasis is all on how the country needs a change from Labour and not on the actual policies these two parties represent.  The introduction of the party leader's debates- and Clegg's impressive performance in the first of these- has skewed attention even more to the personalities of the leaders, which is something that I find deeply distasteful.  In Britain, we elect a party to form a government and not a president to rule.

Tony Blair's approach was essentially presidential and it worked in elections against such personality vacua as John Major, William Hague and Iain Duncan Smith.  However, its result has been a weakening of parliamentary democracy to such an extent that the government has been able to introduce most of what it wanted pretty much impeded.  As a result, the Labour party has been able to backtrack on the significant promises that it made in '97.  In education, they removed Grant Maintained Schools only to replace them with Academies, which are essentially the same thing, just with fewer checks on their power.  They promised to widen participation in Higher Education and yet one of their first acts was to impose tuition fees, when even Thatcher's Tories shrank from abolishing free university education.  And they promised to reform the Welfare and Benefit system, the better to close the gap between the rich and the poor.

The trouble is, the reforms that were brought in, with tinkering in the tax system and abolishing the 10% income tax band to replace it with a 20% tax band meant that suddenly, people who were working were faced with such a tax bill that it proved better to be on benefits than to work.  A system of Tax Credits was introduced to prevent this.  However, the claiming of these has proved to be such a complex process that billions in such credits are unclaimed each year, predominantly by those who need them most.  So rather than face such a complex system, people choose not to take low paid jobs, because it's easier and more lucrative to claim Job Seekers' Allowance than it is to take a low paid job and claim Tax Credits.

So to reform the system I would do the following:

1) Abolish tax credits and instead alter the income tax allowances, raising the threshold before income tax is due and reintroducing that 10% tax band

2) Cut a great deal of the bureaucracy out of claiming Job Seekers' Allowance.  Having been in the position of claiming this in January, I have to say that it was a system designed not so much as to help me find work but instead to generate figures for the Office of National Statistics.  The claims advisors wanted me to predominantly reach for unskilled office work rather than teaching work as a) they had no expertise in how to find such jobs and b) teaching counts as professional work and they were facing pressure to downplay the number of professionals unemployed as a result of the economic situation.  As a result I had to run through hoops that had no impact on my finding a job and actually hampered my attempts to find work.

3) Remove the culture of league tables that distort activity.  Benefits offices are judged on how many claims are processed not on how the accuracy of how each claim is dealt with.  People talk with horror about means testing but, in the end, it exists already.  It should be formalised to prevent anomalies of either excessive stinginess or excessive leniency.

I think, that pretty much covers it after my somewhat historical digression.

Offline Stan'Topic starter

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2010, 07:37:26 AM »
Excellent answer.  Thank you.

Not to mention the fact that Gordon Brown, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, sold HALF of our gold reserves between 1999 and 2002, when the market was at it's lowest for 20 years.  Thanks to his incompetence, we lost BILLIONS of pounds1.  And the Labour Government let it happen.  Tony Blair led us in to an illegal war, and his sheer ignorance to keep refusing to admit he was wrong, is pathetic.  They've already turned us in to a police state, with the millions of CCTV cameras watching everything we do2, and trying desperately to implement biometric ID cards to be carried by everyone, in order to prevent terrorism.  Neither the Tories or Lib Dems want this, nor does the majority of British public.  That's what sums up New Labour.

The majority of Britain does not agree with their policies, nor anything they actually want to do.

Offline Jude

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2010, 02:46:16 PM »
If what you say is true, it sounds like they should not be elected, but you see, this is the difference between cogent debate and perspectiveless journalism.

Offline Neroon

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2010, 02:54:40 PM »
The majority of Britain does not agree with their policies, nor anything they actually want to do.

Given the average turnout in elections, the majority of Britain don't give a toss and, consequently, get the government they deserve unfortunately for the rest of us.

Looking at things clearly, Stan, do you honestly believe that any of the parties offers a realistic hope of being able to give Britain what it needs?  Frankly, I don't: they are all style over substance and necessarily so to survive the media circus long enough to stand a chance of being elected.

Offline Cheka Man

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2010, 03:25:18 PM »
Personally I think the big parties are the same, and the small parties are nutty.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2010, 03:31:05 PM »
Then I suggest try NUTTY for a change and see if they are any better. Seriously.

Offline GeekFury

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2010, 04:05:51 PM »
Given the average turnout in elections, the majority of Britain don't give a toss and, consequently, get the government they deserve unfortunately for the rest of us.

Looking at things clearly, Stan, do you honestly believe that any of the parties offers a realistic hope of being able to give Britain what it needs?  Frankly, I don't: they are all style over substance and necessarily so to survive the media circus long enough to stand a chance of being elected.

Give us a 'None of the Above' option I say.

Offline Cheka Man

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2010, 04:15:07 PM »
But that might ruin the whole election (is only semi-joking) "And the next Government, is "None of the Above," having secured an amazing 52% of the seats."

Offline Trieste

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2010, 04:32:24 PM »
Heh. "Oh, crap, what do we do now?"

"Well, sir, the nearest runner up is this 'tea party' from the US... they seem to have gotten themselves on the ballot by accusing the legislation of racism..."

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2010, 04:42:17 PM »
Just as long as you keep the British Nazi Party out, its ok.

Offline Cheka Man

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2010, 04:53:24 PM »
To get in  the BNP need two things as well as PR, the ecomony to totally eff up even worse then now, and a Hitler figure with charisama, and the leader of the BNP is no Hitler figure.

Offline GeekFury

Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2010, 05:34:22 PM »
If the BNP got in, I'd leave the country, I'm scottish and I don't even support the SNP, fully. *Has to be slightly patriotic.* I say get the Monster Raving Looney party in!

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: To "British" RPers...
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2010, 05:47:42 PM »
They are at least entertaining.