Electric Vehicles and Renewable Energies

[Azy]

You're not stupid for asking the question, because it is a legitimate question to ask.

It's a matter of scale and efficiency. Gasoline engines are capable of converting approximately 30% of the energy in gasoline into actual motive force, while the rest is lost as heat energy. While coal and natural gas still require releasing pollutants into the air, they are closer to operating at around 95% efficiency. That's because any heat produced by the burning of coal or natural gas is used to boil the water that turns turbines. Even with the losses of going through transformers and transmission lines, you still have a cleaner source of power than gasoline on its own.

Plus, a single power plant, even accounting for the losses in the system, is providing electricity to homes that might also be using stoves and ranges that are electric compared to natural gas. Same for heating. By using electricity instead of fossil fuels, we're able to centralize system and scale up the production of electricity in a way that makes it more efficient than hundreds of small, scattered systems. A single plant can also bolster other nearby grids where necessary.

Also, consider this. Right now, yes, that power plant may burn coal or natural gas, but what happens when it's decommissioned? What will the next generation power plant use? By the time it is shut down for good, most homes might have EV charging stations already so that when they install a large solar farm and wind farm to generate electricity, then except for the new power lines and other components to actually get it operational, then you already have customers who are using EVs and the conversion is seamless.

In other words, the system gets more efficient and produces less pollution in the long-term than waiting for key infrastructure to move away first. By taking steps now, even small steps, the system as a whole becomes more efficient.

That makes some sense.  I do know someone who owns a Tesla, and right now his big problem is charging it.  He recently moved into a brand new building, and the parking garage has no charging stations. 

[Annaamarth]

Hey Gloom - knowing you work in utilities, what do you think of the idea of nuclear power making a comeback (assuming we can get past the NIMBY problem)?  Historically, I've been a proponent of nuclear power as a means to safely provide the stable baseline that coal, natural gas, combined cycle and what-have-you provide to underpin ... occasionally volatile renewable sources.  (For those who aren't familiar, solar and wind tend to have wildly variable, "noisy" power outputs that are not terribly well-suited to a grid that doesn't pop your phone battery like an overripe melon)

I've worked in nuclear before, and came out of the experience as a strong supporter of "can I please have nuclear power back now", but I'd love your take.

[GloomCookie]

Hey Gloom - knowing you work in utilities, what do you think of the idea of nuclear power making a comeback (assuming we can get past the NIMBY problem)?  Historically, I've been a proponent of nuclear power as a means to safely provide the stable baseline that coal, natural gas, combined cycle and what-have-you provide to underpin ... occasionally volatile renewable sources.  (For those who aren't familiar, solar and wind tend to have wildly variable, "noisy" power outputs that are not terribly well-suited to a grid that doesn't pop your phone battery like an overripe melon)

I've worked in nuclear before, and came out of the experience as a strong supporter of "can I please have nuclear power back now", but I'd love your take.

I work in power distribution for commercial buildings. The only interaction I actually have with utilities is the handoff from the utility transformer into the building. That said, my understanding of the nuclear situation is that the reason there's a lot of push back on it is that the groups interested in renewables made an alliance with the anti-nuclear crowd to get more support, which kinda cemented the opposition to nuclear power. Myself personally? I feel like we could and should go towards nuclear. Technology in the nuclear field has stagnated, at least in the United States. Other nations, especially France, are very well versed in nuclear technology and I think we should be tapping that potential.

I know that years ago I saw IEEE was talking about small, truck mounted nuclear piles for providing power and heat to construction sites. To me, this is a brilliant solution for small applications, as those piles are the same concept NASA uses for long range probes, including Voyagers 1 & 2. A large truck rolls up on site and they now have hot water and power for building and then it can move on down the road. The pile is small enough that it can't go critical so even if you don't have water connected, it's just going to get a little toasty.

One of the biggest mistakes I think we ever made here in the US was shutting down Yucca Mountain, the facility specifically built to handle nuclear waste long term. As it sits, a lot of plants have large piles of nuclear material just sitting around doing nothing but being a hazard. I understand Green Peace is to thank for that particular fiasco. I get it, you worry about nuclear meltdowns and such, but that group has single handedly probably caused more cancer as a result of anti-nuclear policies by forcing utilities to rely on coal and gas instead of cleaner nuclear power.

And yes, you are absolutely right that renewable sources are "dirty" (that's what we refer to it as), because you have different sources kicking on and off at different outputs constantly. That, and motors/generators used in wind farms are notoriously dirty in general because of their very nature.

This might go over a few peoples heads so I'm going to break it down as much as I can, because this is getting deep into electrical theory.

Direct Current (DC) power is pretty solid because it only flows one way and so current and voltage are in line. Alternating Current (AC) moves back and forth, and so you can have a disconnect between voltage and current called power factor. Most generation sources have unity, meaning voltage and current align, but that almost immediately gets tossed out the window the second you start encountering transformers and the like. Still, we try and get as close to unity as we can because the further you stray on your power factor, the more total power you have to have, even if the 'real' power remains the same.

Example. If you have 100% power factor, then 100W will require 100 Volt-Amps produced by the generator. The Volt-Amps is the total power output, but 100 Watts is how much 'work' is being done. But, a power factor of about 85% (about the furthest we prefer to stray) will require 118 Volt-Amps for the same 100 Watts. Your generator works harder to produce the same amount of total usable power.

For the past three decades, power factors have, frankly, gone to shit. Increased reliance on computers and the widespread adoption of LEDs is to blame for that, though LEDs are still overall more efficient than incandescent bulbs for the same light output. Anyway, the reason this all trickles back to solar and wind is because solar must go through an inverter to convert it from DC to AC power, which means it must be artificially changed to an AC signal and that generates some weird harmonics in there. That's not so bad. Wind power though, those motors are what's causing a lot of dirty power because motors/generators are essentially tightly wound induction coils, and induction coils drag power factor down.

That wouldn't be so bad, slap a couple of capacitors on the line to even that power factor out, no big deal right? Well, there's one other tiny problem... a generator that's not producing power becomes a motor. That means that there are situations where the wind turbines could potentially become giant fans. Now, I'm sure that there's plenty of electronics onboard to disconnect them in that eventuality, but that also means any time there's not enough input torque on that shaft, the turbine is drawing power, not producing it.

We're producing plenty of power, but I just get this sneaking suspicion we're shooting ourselves in the foot on some of this stuff. Overall its better, but I fell like we'd have a much better system with nuclear power than trying to rely solely on renewables the way we have been.

[GloomCookie]

I realize I didn't do a terribly good job of explaining things so I'm gonna do my best.

The reason Alternating Current (AC) power is the backbone of our electrical grid is because it allows us to use electrical transformers to step up and step down voltage and current in a uniform ratio. However, there are drawbacks, the principle being that unlike Direct Current (DC), AC power can lead to starts and stops as motors and other equipment have positive, then negative, then back to positive voltage. To counteract this, we have three-phase power.



With three-phase power, we can normalize the output so that we get roughly equivalent to DC power without having to have a rectifier that converts from AC to DC power. It's all the benefits, none of the drawbacks... at least, usually. The problem is that some components, mainly inductors and capacitors, alter the performance of current and voltage, respectively. When the voltage or current no longer aligns, we call that power factor (pf).



When power factor isn't 100%, you can run into serious problems. First, utility companies hate large power factors, and even charge commercial and industrial customers if it's bad enough, because not only is it putting more strain on the generators, it's also causing the synchronous motors to drift away from the standard frequency (60 Hz in North America, 50 Hz in most of Europe). If the synchronous motors drift too far, they must be shut down to avoid damage, which can lead to things like brown and blackouts. Joy!

But even with decent power factor, you still have to produce the total amount of power the system demands, measured in Volt-Amps. At 100% power factor, the total Watts is equal to the total Volt-Amps, but if you have any power factor at all, Watts < Volt-Amps.



Your utility meter at home can only measure Watts, so the power company isn't really a fan of high Reactive Power. But, in our ever changing world, there's a reason LED bulbs are still replacing incandescent bulbs, and it's to do with that Apparent Power.

A 100W incandescent bulb has a power factor of 100%, so it's total Apparent Power = 100 Volt-Amps. BUT, an LED equivalent uses 10W of power. LEDs have atrocious power factor, somewhere around 65%, and the quick equation is usually S = P / pf. So S = 10W / 65% = 15.38 Volt-Amps. Even with its horrible power factor, an LED equivalent bulb is 84.6% more efficient than an equivalent incandescent bulb.



Now, why do we have 'dirty' and 'clean' power? Well, remember when I mentioned we can create the equivalent of a DC circuit using AC power? Well, that only works for things like motors. Computers, meanwhile, use standard 120V or 220V to ground (depending on country), and they require DC power to operate the complex components inside your computer. So, they use a rectifier to 'fix' AC power and turn it into DC power.



This is a full-wave rectifier, and it is a passive device that turns AC into DC. As you can see there is some trade-off in that it's not a 'perfect' signal, but it's good enough for our purposes. The reason you don't want 'dirty' power is because if big loads turn on and off, it can affect voltage and lead to issues with computers when the nice output signal gets disrupted.



This is why we aren't a fan of renewables like this because it can often lead to issues with power quality. Having nuclear power would be a nice, clean, reliable baseline that we can then augment as needed, instead of having lots of devices turning on and off in quick succession.

[TheGlyphstone]

Lessons from Professor Cookie are always the best.

[RedRose]

I can't remember if I said my neighbor has solar panels. Apparently it's worthless most of the time.

[CopperLily]

We're apparently in an area that's really good for solar panels, but there's so many predatory companies, etc. that it's really hard to actually *do*.

[greenknight]

The first solar panel question to ask is whether you won them or they own them. If they're yours, it's a home improvement and everything that goes along with that. If it's them:

   
• Who is them. If it's the power company, that should be reasonably safe as they are very unlikely to go belly up. If not, what happens when the company fails?
• What easement is granted to the equipment?
• What are the terms of lease they are requesting to use your roof?
• What happens to the contract on change of ownership?
• What are your termination rights?

There are several other questions, but these are the big ones. You are leasing your property to a business entity that probably knows much more about the specific laws governing the transaction than you. Sometimes lawyers are a good thing.
My personal experience was buying from an industry leader. As my install teams came from out of state, that explains the almost 9 month lead time. They seem to be very overbooked. Installation was done a month ago. I'm still waiting for the power company to install the production meter (their requirement to know how much they owe me for excess production going  back into the grid) so I can turn on the system.

[GloomCookie]

Let's talk about this hot garbage right here a moment please.

So, yes. Last week the citizens of California were told to please not charge their electric vehicles because the electrical grid was being taxed higher than normal. And yes, assholes like this took that ball and ran with it. So, let's talk about why it's still good that we're using more EVs and why situations like this are going to happen.

First, electric vehicles are going to demand power. Shocker, I know. They also take a while to charge. We're working on that. But I'm not a fan of how this entire thing has basically become "This is why I'll never give up a gas car!" I just... this is bad, but it's because of a whole host of factors that are going to contribute more to people digging in their heels to stop EVs.

The entire situation in California boils down to power companies being unable to produce the necessary power to accommodate a growing electrical grid. It's a problem that has plagued rapidly growing areas for decades, and there's only so much you can do. Electrical power production can only be built so fast because while you can order a 100 megaWatt power station, if the electrical infrastructure can't handle it, then it doesn't matter how many you install, you're gonna be screwed over. And in some areas, it's going to be difficult to do for a whole host of reasons. The main one being costs.

California and some other states are required to do Net Metering, where if you produce any kind of power be it a solar panel or gas generator and feed it into the system, they have to run your meter backwards. Sounds great until you realize that power companies like Southern California Edison and Florida Power and Light (two I know off hand) are now seeing so much input from users that they're losing a lot of revenue. That same revenue, btw, that is needed to install new power lines. Those things are not cheap to build, install, or maintain, since any time you have a storm you need dedicated technicians to go out and fix the problem and they get hazard pay because it's usually in torrential downpours while lightning zaps all around them. FUN! And upgrading these lines is difficult because you need to redirect that power or build AROUND existing infrastructure while it's active. It's a bitch just getting work done under a single section of power lines, imagine how much fun it is to know you have to maintain 10 to 30 feet of clearance at all times for miles and miles of work?

The US electrical infrastructure, like a lot of crucial infrastructure, is aging and it's not helped by bad policy decisions. I get it, these things are acts of God and we can't predict them, but we can take action to fix some of it. Unfortunately, I fear that we're going to get a lot of finger pointing by idiots who go "But you said not to charge your EVs! That means you know it doesn't work!" and then when the response comes they plug their ears and turn to the voters and go "He uses big words, don't listen to him, listen to me!"

Sorry, bad policies that lead to people delaying what I feel is a good thing like EVs just really annoys me and I felt this needed talking about. I'm gonna go nibble a cupcake and calm down.

[Vekseid]

Didn't they also lose something like 2GW of capacity because of the heat?

We're going to be facing a lot of extremes like this. : /

[GloomCookie]

Wouldn't surprise me. As wires heat up they lose capacity to carry amperage, which means that if you heat the wires enough, it adds a lot of losses into the system just from things like voltage drop. Normal ambient is measured at 26C to 30C. Anything beyond that like 90 to 100F (32C to 38C) then you can lose something like 4%-12% of your total capacity. And that's like, normal conditions. You hit 105F (40C) and you're down 18% of your capacity.

Temperature extremes do horrendous things to electrical efficiency.

Btw handy chart from Schneider Electric if you're interested. https://www.productinfo.schneider-electric.com/na-std-ref/5c0fee4b347bdf0001de4d55/Conductor%20Ampacity%20Tables/English/Data%20Bulletin%20-%20Conductor%20Ampacity%20Tables%20(bookmap)_0000264293.ditamap/$/CorrectionAndAdjustmentFactors-F20BC8E5

Don't worry overly much about the 60, 75, and 90C columns, that's more for people like me to worry about because it depends on specific wire types and their applications.

[Dashenka]

I don't think it's a "This is why I'll never give up a gas car!" situation. Not for me at least. (I know there are those who say that but fuck them.


To me, it's like selling your house before you've bought another.

Why are countries, the UK where I live has done the same, setting dates as to when ICE cars are no longer being sold new (you can still drive your ICE car you already own) while the power grid cannot handle it and there is no guarantee or plan to ensure that it does by that time.

If California and all the other places had a plan and could guarantee the people that when the time comes, there will be enough power, I think a lot of intelligent people would gladly switch to an EV. But there isn't a guarantee. Not in the UK and I don't think in California either.

The other problem you'll get with the network is that most people in a country charge their cars at the same time. At night. So when you come home from work, let's say around 5 or 6, it's already dark so the lights are on, kids are watching television, spouse is making dinner with the electric cooker and the oven on. The demand at those times is so much higher than other times, but the network has to be able to deal with it because I (and most people with me) don't like the government telling us when to charge our cars.

So for a lot of people it's not a matter than I prefer ICE cars, it's just a simple matter of there not being a reliable alternative yet and being very sceptical about there being one when ICE cars are banned from being sold.

[GloomCookie]

Peak usage for most places in the US and Europe both are during the day, which is offset somewhat by the rapidly expanding solar network that is generating power during those peak times. Lots of power companies charge businesses and industry for on-peak, near-peak, and off-peak demand. The evenings aren't that bad comparatively because offices like mine almost entirely shut down after 5pm. Lights go to occupancy mode, HVAC is by zone only, etc. And so an office that might need 1000kVA during peak use times might drop to just 100kVA or even less depending on a host of factors.

There will naturally be some businesses like grocery stores and the like that run 24/7 for things like walk-in coolers/freezers, lights, etc., but they still have peak times. HVAC loads are always heaviest in the middle of the day/early evening because that's when the most heat affects the building. If the grid can handle peak-use, then plugging your car in during the evening is still better.

But I'm also not a huge fan of banning ICE just yet, not when there are a lot of issues still being worked out. California's banning of car charging during certain times... they can't enforce that. The best they can do is hope a percentage of people comply and shifts the peak just a bit. While I said they have Demand Response controls, that's newer buildings. I'm working on a project straddling San Jose (like literally the city jurisdiction runs through the mall) and the mall was built in the mid-80s, long before these controls became standard. I guarantee you they don't have the demand response controls, so the best the power companies can do is ask them to turn the HVAC to use less.

Also... while we're on the topic, can we find the idiot who put Auto-Off in cars? And just slap the ever-loving shit out of them? That scared me so bad when I rented a 2019 Silverado and went to make a turn and the engine was dead in the middle of traffic. That shit is dangerous and is gonna kill someone.

[Annaamarth]

Let's talk about this hot garbage right here a moment please....

100% agree.

As an addendum to this particular topic, PG&E can go die in a fucking fire.  They keep trying to kill everyone else in one with their shoddy fucking maintenance.

It's not acts of God once it's been happening for over a decade,, and PG&E's investor profit numbers have usually been quite good over the years, sometimes double-digit-growth good.  They needed to be allocating their investor profits out after fixing their shit, and probably should have been a publicly traded company for that reason.

California needs to fund their fucking infrastructure, even if that means buying out PG&E and replacing the company with one less profit-driven.

[Dashenka]

Also... while we're on the topic, can we find the idiot who put Auto-Off in cars? And just slap the ever-loving shit out of them? That scared me so bad when I rented a 2019 Silverado and went to make a turn and the engine was dead in the middle of traffic. That shit is dangerous and is gonna kill someone.

Auto-Off?

You mean the engine shutting down when you're stationary?

[Oniya]

Also... while we're on the topic, can we find the idiot who put Auto-Off in cars? And just slap the ever-loving shit out of them? That scared me so bad when I rented a 2019 Silverado and went to make a turn and the engine was dead in the middle of traffic. That shit is dangerous and is gonna kill someone.

Also curious about this - not that we're likely to be able to buy/rent a car soon, but I want to make sure Mr. Oniya doesn't end up encountering one.  (My eyes aren't great, to the point that I don't like driving these days.)

[Annaamarth]

Auto-Off?

You mean the engine shutting down when you're stationary?

Yeah

Also curious about this - not that we're likely to be able to buy/rent a car soon, but I want to make sure Mr. Oniya doesn't end up encountering one.  (My eyes aren't great, to the point that I don't like driving these days.)

basically, when you stop your car for a bit - car full-stopped, holding the brake in place - the engine actually stops instead of idling.  This may not be really helpful for a short drive to somewhere, but if you're stuck in a 3 hour stop-and-go commute it saves a lot of gas.  Typically, the engine restarts automatically when you start disengaging the brake, giving time for the engine to start before you go foot-to-accelerator.  There may be a slight delay, and you may find that you are removing your foot from the brake in anticipation of desiring acceleration rather than at need of acceleration - e.g. the light turns to GO and you start coming off the brake before the cars ahead of you start to go.

This has more value in traffic-congested areas like Los Angeles, New York, Beijing, London and India than rural areas, but it's a way for auto manufactures to improve some of their stats for regulatory purposes, so ... yeh.

[GloomCookie]

To add to what Annaamarth said, the Auto-Off also comes with a way to disable it, but to me it's incredibly dangerous. I've only been in one traffic jam that lasted more than 5 minutes and that one was because an 18-wheeler on a winding road. I personally hate it because I feel it's INCREDIBLY dangerous and while I'm going to keep my own vehicle currently, it's something I intend to permanently disable it and it will be a major consideration on all future purchases.

I found this video and I imagine there are a ton of ways to get around the Auto Stop.

https://youtu.be/bG_-Ibvrdn4

[Dashenka]

I think it's what we call Stop Start over here...

If that is the same, I don't understand why it could be dangerous. It just shuts the engine down temporarily while you're stationary. The moment you let go of the brake in an automatic gearbox, the engine turns on and you have propulsion again.

[GloomCookie]

I think it's what we call Stop Start over here...

If that is the same, I don't understand why it could be dangerous. It just shuts the engine down temporarily while you're stationary. The moment you let go of the brake in an automatic gearbox, the engine turns on and you have propulsion again.

While they make it sound nice, when I was driving there was a time or two the engine took a second or two to crank again. I don't know if it was just that vehicle or not, but it was long enough that I felt it was dangerous. I almost took it back and demanded a different vehicle, one without the silly feature, because I didn't feel safe driving the vehicle. I later found out how to turn it off temporarily so I could at least do that. But I genuinely did not feel safe driving the first few times it happened.

[Dashenka]

My cars all have that feature and none of them take a few seconds to crank up so I never felt it was dangerous. It also only enables at lights or in traffic jams where you dont really need to accelerate quickly in my experience.

It's a feature to cut down on emissions so I doubt we'll see it on EV's.

Also a feature like that on a Silverado, presumably a V8, feels a bit unnecessary. If you drive one of those, fuel consumption usually isn't foremost on your mind

[Oniya]

If you drive one of those, fuel consumption usually isn't foremost on your mind

Depends on the price of fuel and your budget.  *shrug*

[Swidi]

i keep reading the words 'power company' and i am confused. don't your governments own the utility services who you pay a fee to?

[Vekseid]

In the US the only utility usually owned by the local government is water.

[GloomCookie]

Some municipalities own their power companies but it's also extremely common that they're corporate entities and such. Off the top of my head I can think of Duke Energy, First Corp Energy, Entergy, Southern California Edison, Puget Sound Power, Arizona Public Service, Rocky Mountain Power, and a couple of others. It's a pain because different utilities have different standards and requirements but for the most part they are still bound by a bunch of rules and regulations put out by the Department of Energy. As long as they meet those guidelines, they're usually allowed to operate as they see fit.