War: Russia vs. Ukraine?

[Beorning]

That was unexpected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BowjATQloVA

[Bezukhov]

This war is terrible, I have family and friends overseas. So far not so good, I think the worst thing is that many times people will say it is not Russian citizens fault. To a degree, I agree. But also, I feel there should be some form of ability for Russian people to accept they did indirectly cause this war by never really opposing their governments. Both Ukraine and Belarus, were under dictatorships and both protested. Belarus's was crushed because the West provided no support to protestors despite promising to do so. Ukraine's succeeded for different reasons. But most Russians do not protest their government.

Now to be clear though, that is not to say there are no Russians who protest. But those that do is a miniscule number in the grand scheme of things. I think the main thing that bothers me, is that more often than not Russians are protesting not because Ukrainians are dying. But because their pocketbooks are being hurt by sanctions. This level of protests never existed in Chechen wars, Georgia war, 2014 or Russias other military excursions. Most Russians supported the annexation of Crimea. I feel many times people are not trying to hold Russian citizens accountable for their government and we give them a pass. But none of the Russian citizens protested past wars until their own livelihoods were endangered.

I am likely biased, due to my personal attachment to people in Ukraine and Belarus. But I feel there should be more accountability being held to Russian citizens. I believe those protesting are hero's but, the truth is that the majority are not protesting. Getting accurate numbers for amount of people who support Putin is also difficult. But, I personally think that unfortunately if these sanctions had not been as hard hitting as they had majority of Russians would not have cared or would have even been fine with this war just like they were in 2014. My opinion is, this is a disaster, but if Ukrainians and Belarusians could protest their governments in far larger numbers (comparatively by populations), there's no reasons Russians can't either.

I fully understand your take on this, but I rather disagree on your views about holding Russian citizens accountable for what's happening right now. Just like you with Ukraine and Belarus, I guess my bias is due to having friends scattered around Russia – just to be sure, people who are certainly not supporting Putin's criminal actions in Ukraine and who were already very much hostile to his government before the war.

I also believe the political contexts of these three countries – Russia, Ukraine and Belarus – can hardly be compared. Take Ukraine: the West, whatever that means, did play a major role in fostering the development of a domestic civil society there, mostly by the means of financial support to pro-democracy organizations, which ultimately led to Yanukovych being toppled in 2014. Seeing what was happening in neighboring countries, the Russian government has so far prevented the risk of any domestic color revolution in Moscow, mostly by cracking down on NGOs and other potentially relevant political actors.

I really can't blame the majority of Russians for not taking to the streets against Putin's regime. The heritage of the first, catastrophic post-Soviet decade and the attempt at democratizing Russia is what they call "dermokratiya" (shitocracy, if you pardon my French). Alas, it'll take work to rebuild trust in liberal-democratic institutions... at a time when they are currently under attack in many liberal-democratic countries, if I may add.

Could this war provide a serious blow to Putin's regime? I really don't know, but I guess we'll have to see.

[TheGlyphstone]

As far as previous Russian attacks, do we have any reason to believe Russian state TV was more honest about what it was doing in Georgia or Crimea? One of the things we've learned here is how few people even bother to go looking for Western news, rather than blindly trusting the state propaganda.

[gaggedLouise]

Just curious, but being a bibliophile and a library fan I've been wondering about this for some time: when you see Joe Biden making press announcements and speeches from the White House, there's a shelf of bulky books in varying colours with gilt lettering right behind him. Does anyone have an idea what books these are; are they codes of US law? :)

I'm thinking of this setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T05PDq-0aDE

(I scouted for similar info about the Oval Office at another site sometime back, and it turned out that a photographer had identified a vintage edition of the works of George Washington, and another of Longfellow, on the presidential bookshelves.. He had been comparing a couple of different photos and used close-ups. These editions are legacies of some earlier men (or first ladies?) in the house of course, they did not change under Trump and have likely been there since the last century.)

[Humble Scribe]

That's the mantelpiece in the West Wing's Roosevelt Room. If you watch this clip, they look like official Presidential biographies. Certainly they run from John F Kennedy to Barak Obama. I think the one of Trump is probably hidden by the Presidential Flag - presumably deliberately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SkPrNkKjlY

[Oniya]

There may be a lag time on when a president leaves office and when the book is produced.  Considering all the stuff still coming out about the Trump presidency, the biographer might still be doing edits.

[TheGlyphstone]

Though the idea does remind me of how when George W. Bush took office, the Clinton administration staff removed the W's from every keyboard and typewriter in the White House before leaving. Incredibly petty and somehow amusing.

[Beorning]

Though the idea does remind me of how when George W. Bush took office, the Clinton administration staff removed the W's from every keyboard and typewriter in the White House before leaving. Incredibly petty and somehow amusing.

... what?

[greenknight]

Rumor has it...

[Azuresun]

Not a good time to be an oligarch.

[Saria]

Though the idea does remind me of how when George W. Bush took office, the Clinton administration staff removed the W's from every keyboard and typewriter in the White House before leaving. Incredibly petty and somehow amusing.

... what?

Apparently there’s a White House tradition that the outgoing staff plays pranks on the incoming staff. It’s not really meant to be a petty or cruel thing, just a silly, collegial prank. Keep in mind that, back then, American politics wasn’t as nasty or crazy as it is these days; the parties disagreed, but didn’t go as far as “lock her up” bullshit. This kind of pranking and joking around was all in good fun.

The prank in 2000 was that they removed all the “W” keys from all the keyboards… which is a pretty hilarious prank, I think.

For those who don’t get it, George W. Bush was the 43rd president… his father, George H. W. Bush, was the 41st, but he usually went just by “George Bush”, so without the “W”, there’s no way to distinguish between “George Bush” and “George W. Bush”.

[greenknight]

I mean, it's better than pranking yourself and losing all the pandemic playbooks that were left for you....

[gaggedLouise]

There may be a lag time on when a president leaves office and when the book is produced.  Considering all the stuff still coming out about the Trump presidency, the biographer might still be doing edits.

One can't help wondering what the Trump Presidential Library is going to look like... :)

[Lustful Bride]

So Russia tried to blame the EU and the US for an alleged attempt at assassination by Ukrainian Nazis within Russia. And the footage of their raid is like something out of a meme, as well as clearly showing how staged all of this was. You need to read/see this to understand how much they failed in making a convincing false flag.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-spies-hilariously-screw-putin-221946536.html

[Azuresun]

So Russia tried to blame the EU and the US for an alleged attempt at assassination by Ukrainian Nazis within Russia. And the footage of their raid is like something out of a meme, as well as clearly showing how staged all of this was. You need to read/see this to understand how much they failed in making a convincing false flag.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-spies-hilariously-screw-putin-221946536.html

Bear in mind that this probably isn't aimed at being convincing to a wider audience. It's some more meat being thrown to state TV and the conspiracy sphere.

In ongoing Botski watch, the trolls seem to have been issued new talking points by their handlers. Current MO is to claim weapons being shipped to Ukraine are being sold to the black market, and also to claim that the US / UK axis of evil is going to do a false flag operation with chemical weapons. Getting their excuses in early.

[TeamVelma]

...and also to claim that the US / UK axis of evil is going to do a false flag operation with chemical weapons...

The UK does have considerable stocks of Marmite.

[Oniya]

The UK does have considerable stocks of Marmite.

Vlad better hope they don't upgrade to the Australian version.

[TeamVelma]

Vlad better hope they don't upgrade to the Australian version.

There's Chilli Marmite as well.

[HannibalBarca]

Quote from: Oniya on Today at 03:48:41 pm

    Vlad better hope they don't upgrade to the Australian version.


There's Chilli Marmite as well.

It could be worse.  It could be Vegemite.

[Norwegian One]

Putin better hope Sweden doesn't join NATO and bring their dreaded Surströmming :p

[Beorning]

Marmite is the new termite! 

[Dice]

It could be worse.  It could be Vegemite.

Better you mean? Vegemite is fantastic.

On topic. There is this set of vids I have been enjoying. Here is the playlist and its not so much about what is going on in the war as a whole and more a look at what things are happening and the reactions that have come from it.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbCbj03gdsWwxEZNyy_b0aHKFgmVT3G-3

[Beorning]

I don't know if you guys heard of the rumours for Russia's plans for the coming Victory Day parade?

Apparently, the Russians are considering marching a group of 500 Ukrainian POWs as part of the parade...

If this is true, then - what kind of medieval barbarity is this??? What else, maybe a bunch of captive Ukrainian women in chains, followed by slavemasters cracking whips..

Also, I must say that I'm really concerned about some of the opinions on the war that appeared in Europe in recent days. In Germany, a group of left-leaning intellectuals published an appeal for Germany not to give Ukraine weapons... as this only serves to "escalate the conflict"... and might cause Putin start firing nukes. And nobody wants a nuclear war... so, we need to sacrifice Ukraine to Putin, apparently... This is Munich 1938 all over again 

And I'm honestly dumbfounded by Pope Francis' comments on the situation. In a new interview, he claims that the war could've been provoked by "NATO barking at Russia's doorstep"... And that he doesn't want to visit Ukraine - but he wants to try meeting Putin...

Oh, and an Italian TV station conducted an interview with Lavrov, giving him a golden opportunity to spread his propaganda to Italian public...

[Dice]

Tankies were always traitors, I have no idea why anyone is shocked by their behaviour.

[stormwyrm]

I don't know if you guys heard of the rumours for Russia's plans for the coming Victory Day parade?

Apparently, the Russians are considering marching a group of 500 Ukrainian POWs as part of the parade...

If this is true, then - what kind of medieval barbarity is this??? What else, maybe a bunch of captive Ukrainian women in chains, followed by slavemasters cracking whips..

Good grief, does he think he now think he's a Roman Emperor celebrating a Triumph? Maybe he'll even show up at the head of the parade wearing a toga picta and a crown of laurels! 🤦‍♂️