The appropriation of Indigenous/Ethnic Cultures in RP: A discussion

[ladia2287]

This is a potentially prickly issue but an interesting thing to discuss; I'm sure we've all seen roleplayers pick up characters that appropriate certain aspects of a culture that said character is not a part of, or maybe they are but the player isn't and they don't fully understand why it might be an issue. Maybe we've done it ourselves (guilty as charged here). Getting it right is tricky. How do we as roleplayers and partners tackle this issue and where is the line drawn between valid inspiration from a particular culture, and something uncomfortable, privileged or racist?

So, context. I'm an Australian-born of mixed mostly European heritage (predominantly Italian and English with some French and a couple of others mixed in there). I've also been surrounded and intimately involved in Australian Indigenous culture for most of my life as my Mum worked very closely with Indigenous communities to help raise awareness and education about their culture, history, spirituality and way of life in schools. I wouldn't say I'm an expert but I do have a healthy realm of knowledge and experience and enough of a clue of where to go if I want to clarify something ultra-specific. I've seen portrayals in RP of Indigenous Australian and Italian culture in particular that have been done really well, some that were kind of cringy and some that were uncomfortably racist and/or ignorant.

I personally have come across some that were just blatantly offensive and made me very uncomfortable. But I try to give the other player the benefit of the doubt that perhaps they just aren't aware that something is off so if I can I'll try to educate them in the hope that they will use that information to improve the character and their portrayal of the culture they're appropriating, or at the very least that it might inspire them to do a bit of research so they can be more authentic to what they're trying to show. If they listen (and many times they do), fantastic, but there's always that one who, no matter how much you try to explain that what they're doing is icky, just power on through and either ignore those points completely or dismiss it as not being that big a deal.

How would you handle that situation (whether inside of E or in general)? Discuss.

[Lustful Bride]

Your concerns are very legitimate. I myself only ever play within cultures and groups I have a good enough understanding of to portray in ways I feel are accurate and not too stereotypical. But even then those bad writing habits can slip out since I am human and we are all flawed and bombarded with stereotypes and inaccuracies 24/7. This isn't helped by the fact that people are complex and different and no one group is exactly the same. We are not a static species and we are constantly changing in ways that are big and small.

Not every person of Group X is going to be 100% Y or practice Z 100% of the time.

But I feel like E is kind of an awkward place for this topic (despite it being very valid). We are not writing our stories for mass consumption, only for ourselves and one other person (or a small group), with these stories not really meant to be shared outside of our little bubble. But at the same time this is one of the healthiest sites I've ever had the pleasure of being part of on the entire internet. I feel like part of the reason for that is our collective self awareness, recognition of our failings, and attempts to improve.

I was going somewhere with this but now I've gotten all turned around. I think you are right to bring this up though. It is a discussion worth having, but perhaps might be more of a case by case basis than a blanket yes/no.

[Azy]

It is a potential prickly topic, and one I have a lot of unpopular opinions on.  If a person is going to play a character of a certain ethnic group, they should be at least somewhat educated on that culture.  That being said, this site in particular, is a site of writing and creativity.  It's something made up, and even if based on an actual culture, no one that wasn't raised in said culture is going to get everything completely correct as some think they should.  When I write a Medieval type fantasy I don't make sure I have every detail of that time period exact, because it's fantasy. 

Some of those people who don't seem to appreciate your corrections may not be trying to be ignorant, just not appreciative of being corrected and expected to be politically correct on a writing forum.  I know it would get on my nerves.  I may be pro giving everyone basic human respect, but I think political correctness goes a little too far at times.  Even though some Buddhist philosophies such as mindfulness have helped me deal with my mental issues, I've been told I can't sit on my living room floor and meditate to try and curb a panic attack because my ancestors aren't from that culture and that is appropriation.  I told that person to stick it where the sun don't shine. 

To me there is a big difference between ripping a culture off for personal profit, and being interested in it.  Me doing a meditation on my living room floor, well, I got the information for free off a website.  The only thing I get from it is stopping the panic attack and better focusing my mind.  I see no issue with that.  However, if I started teaching a class and charging a lot of money, that would be a little different.     

[Chulanowa]

The issue of fantasy does muddle it up a bit. How deep into "similar to," "inspired by" and "draws elements from" does it go? Because let's be real, it's probably impossible to write a fictional culture that doesn't draw heavily on existing ones to varying degrees.

I think ultimately the important thing is intent and respect; If you're not going out there to cause insult, it'll be okay. of course the closer you get to "real world" the more on-point you've have to be... meaning, don't be like White Wolf, naming a whole book after a racial slur and claiming a semi-accurate portrayal of real people that is in fact really gross and backwards even for the 1990's.

But if you're like, writing a setting in a big jungle, it's probably okay to draw from a bare-bones grasp of Amazonian peoples to design your culture of elves who live in kapok tree-towns or something.

[Tolvo]

It's definitely a tricky subject. An issue I often worry about is what to do as a GM when someone makes a character that seems to fall into a stereotype or seems to borrow from cultures in a possibly ignorant or insensitive way, and how to approach it with them. Obviously there are various aspects to consider, like if person is from said culture/group so it's really no harm no foul. But there are people who will be outraged if you point it out when they aren't from said group. Especially it is difficult given just  how many racist depictions of people there are in media throughout history. Even among the many beloved things, though others people are often more aware of. Like if you say to people "Warcraft is really racist" a lot of people who enjoy would agree it is. Something I often think about is why are they borrowing, what, and how. For instance a Warcraft example for the brown skinned Orcs around the time of Mists of Pandaria they started getting Maori chin tattoos, something considered incredibly culturally important and personal, put upon the big hulking "savage" villains(Such as Garrosh). No one on the dev team would ever address it or respond to Maori people asking them about the usage. It was pretty insensitive of the devs and they clearly didn't want to acknowledge what they were doing. That is a more cut and dry situation that is obviously a problem. While these things are fantasy, our media does impact us and can hurt people. It can condition people to view certain groups negatively, it can reinforce certain beliefs, and hurt those who are having their culture used.

For me when running a game I'd probably just directly address it with the person and tell them to change the character. If someone joined an RP of mine with a character who was like a young shaman from a tribe taking clear inspirations from Native Americans without actually being one themself, describing them wearing a headdress with many feathers, I'd tell them they have to change it. How awkward it would be for me, how angry they might get, I'd feel far worse to let something so insensitive slide. When writing with someone we are making a world together, it is both mine and theirs. So when someone does that I feel responsible, and that they're taking something fun, interesting, a good experience, and corrupting it. And if they refuse then I'd be done writing with them period. Which they might rationalize as my loss, but I don't want to create or take part in racist art. I don't want to create anything ignorant or hateful, anything that spreads such harmful ideas or reinforces them. This goes for any form of prejudice and/or bigotry. We're creating a fantasy, so why does it have to be hurtful to real people? Especially I run into the issue when people can view any world as only having our same sort of history. So they'll make characters homophobic, racist, transphobic, ableist, etc. Then treat it as the norm when I made it clear in the world building those things aren't the norm, that there are various issues which are different. Because I want anyone to be able to play someone that is like themself without having to weigh negatives and positives and if it's worth it to make a character like them.

[Azy]

I do think intent matters a great deal.  With your examples, making orcs brown skinned.  I can see how that might be offensive because many humans around the world are brown skinned.  But was the person who did that trying to paint darker skinned people as savages, or were they just trying to make something different?  Sometimes it seems to me like people are looking for things to be offended about.  You could argue that brown skinned orcs maybe wasn't consciously intentional, but subconscious and that's how they see darker skinned people.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  And I have no idea what you're getting at with the chin tattoos.  Admittedly, whatever culture that comes from, I don't know much about.  It could be argued that the artist didn't either.  They just thought it looked badass.  I don't know, I can't get into other peoples' heads. 

I get called racist alot for what I think are knee jerk dumb reasons.  For instance, when I saw that they were doing a live action Little Mermaid, and were casting a black woman to play Ariel, I didn't like that.  Much of the internet was screaming being upset about that had to be a racist thing.  Maybe for some.  For me it had much to do with childhood nostalgia.  The Little Mermaid was the first movie I ever saw in a theater at the age of five.  I would've been just as upset if they would've cast a white woman with blonde hair.  Ariel is a readheaded mermaid dammit!  I would've been upset if when they did the live action Aladin if they would've cast a white woman with a tan to play Princess Jasmine.  I'm annoyed at what I grew up with being changed.  If you want people of color to be better represented, make new characters with new story lines.  I'm behind that a thousand percent.  Leave my childhood alone please.   

There are some things like the way Asians used to be portrayed that were bad, and we should learn from that and do better.  But if someone watched a lot of older Kung Fu movies as a kid, and makes a character based in those movies, that's probably what they know.  I don't disagree that education is a good thing, but I'm not sure roleplaying is the time and place to do it.  We roleplay to escape the crappy world.  If someone were to do something highly offensive I might say something.       

[Tolvo]

Orcs in Warcraft directly have a lot of real world parallels to black people, these things are intentional. Many groups in that series draw from real world races and ethnicities explicitly. Keep in mind the Orcs originally being brown was added already after the plotline about how they were enslaved by humans and forced to live in camps before Thrall led them to break out and become free. Even later adding the element of him saying "Thrall is my slave name, Go'el is what my parents wanted to call me." There comes a point where I don't think the subconscious excuse even works there for personal intent. When it happens again and again with various real world elements constantly tied in, including clothing, accents, hell sometimes direct quotes and names.

In Maori culture their tattoos are considered personal and sacred. Each one is designed to represent the history and ancestors of the one the tattoo is on. It's taking something sacred from a highly oppressed group and applying it to villains to make them look scary.

In regards to innocent ignorance, with my example about the person making a native inspired character. I wouldn't just yell at them obviously, I would directly address them and mention the need to change the character. If they asked why, I'd explain that the feathered headdress is considered rather sacred and is also mainly for veteran soldiers. And how if they do plan to make such characters in the future they should do more research into the cultures they want to use and write about first. Especially if they can get first hand sources from indigenous people. If they just go "oh shoot sorry I didn't meant to be insensitive, I'll change my character" then obviously no harm no foul. How someone responds to others pointing these things out is often a better indicator of intentions. With that Maori example Blizzard wanted to brush it under the rug, keep it, but pretend it wasn't significant. They didn't apologize or say they'd change it which would be a good response and build good will. When people point out a problem and someone just sticks their head in the sand and continues to do it, they don't get to feign ignorance.

[Azy]

 I did say I don't know what the intent of the Warcraft creators are.  I said it was possible that perception and reality are different.  You, and I'm guessing many others don't think so.  You know what the chin tattoo thing means.  I didn't.  You said it is sacred to the Maori people.  I'd have to do a google search to even know who they are.  I've seen white people with chin tattoos.  The orcs were enslaved, but they broke free.  It's a game.  Egyptians enslaved the Hebrews.  Romans enslaved everyone, including their own people.  They forced men to fight each other to death, which was a little sick.  The Nazi's put Jewish people in concentration camps.  If you go through all of human history, humans with a lot of military power liked to conquer and enslave others.  If orcs existed, I'm sure humans would want to enslave them too.

I don't see orcs in a game having chin tattoos taking anything away from the Maori culture.  Those people can still live their lives and have those sacred tattoos.  All I really know about Blizzard is they at least sold World of Warcraft to a Chinese company, and everything went to hell after that. 

Slavery and all sorts of horrible things still happen in underdeveloped parts of the world.  My thought has always been and will always be instead of getting offended over a video game, why don't we make the lives of those people still suffering better?             

[Tolvo]

The people still suffering are the ones who were offended and hurt. Maori people historically have had their traditions suppressed by those ruling over them. They still face discrimination, generally have little power as a collective, and often have limited job opportunities in various placed and are viewed negatively due to their tattoos. Which white people get to use and get treated better while sporting or using than the actual people they belong to. Like you mention you'd have to google these things to understand them and talk about them, then I suggest doing it. When we have the opportunity to educate ourselves on a matter we are speaking about we should. Speaking out of ignorance can only bring harm.

Additionally this sort of thing can be handled in such a better more impactful way. It'd be such a different response if they'd introduced a character with those tattoos that was actually played by someone who is Maori, while consulting with Maori historians or writers to make the character, with a story that actually ties into their culture. You'd end up with something far more rich, something likely not seen by the general audience making it new to them, while respecting a culture and people while also giving them representation in that fictional world. Instead we got something lazy, uninspired, overused, and hurtful in its usage. Taking these sorts of things into consideration I'd say is important more so I'd say in regards to how they effect how people are viewed, but as a side benefit it generally makes the actual product better too.

[Skynet]

To the OP's initial, I feel that there's differing degrees. A for-profit work vs free fanfic, and also to what degree certain cultural aspects are sacred and not meant for casual use by outsiders. A lot of mainland Chinese people don't mind foreigners wearing the cheongsam, and many Japanese people were upset when Western liberals were speaking on behalf of them in claiming that people of other races shouldn't wear kimonos. To both groups it's merely a dress style. Contrast this with the Lakota war bonnet that is more commonly known as an "Indian headdress." Only warriors are allowed to wear it, meaning that it's restricted in modern times to active-duty soldiers and veterans; for anyone else to wear it is no different to them than stolen valor of civilians falsely claiming military service.

Generally speaking, if it's something that has religious or spiritual significance, you should tread carefully.

In regards to the Maori, many of their tattoo designs are copyrighted. Which means that if someone wishes to use them in a for-profit manner, they have to financially compensate the Maori tribe which holds ownership of the IP. But such a thing is the exception rather than the norm; a lot of Indigenous folklore, art, and spirituality is in the public domain which is why you see dreamcatchers and vision quests all over the place. This is also why a lot of such traditions are deliberately kept secret from the majority of the world, knowing that outsiders have more social capital to determine what such symbols mean to society at large.

[Tolvo]

Regarding things of a lesser degree or that aren't held as taboo for outsiders such as kimono, mainly what I've seen is if it's appropriate for the person to be wearing it. Such as various ceremonies where if one is in Japan and that's the standard attire, or if someone is somewhere where that's just what people wear, that's just fine. "Does it make sense for the person to be wearing that? Then it's fine." If in a fantasy setting someone is traveling through wide open lands with the sun beating down on them wearing a kasa is just practical.

Free Fanfic vs For-Profit is also why I have such different exceptions for someone just in an RP vs a multi-million dollar international company. I wouldn't tell someone in an RP they need to hire a consultant, just to try to learn more. If I know what to search for I'd mention such things to them. Or refer them to places/people that know more than me if they wish to check them out.

[Skynet]

But I feel like E is kind of an awkward place for this topic (despite it being very valid). We are not writing our stories for mass consumption, only for ourselves and one other person (or a small group), with these stories not really meant to be shared outside of our little bubble. But at the same time this is one of the healthiest sites I've ever had the pleasure of being part of on the entire internet. I feel like part of the reason for that is our collective self awareness, recognition of our failings, and attempts to improve.

I was going somewhere with this but now I've gotten all turned around. I think you are right to bring this up though. It is a discussion worth having, but perhaps might be more of a case by case basis than a blanket yes/no.

I feel that another thing to discuss which is related is how writing stories on Elliquiy is a bit of a limiting factor in such regards when you want to get help in making a certain culture "more authentic." I'm fortunate to have some friends and acquaintances on this site who've been happy to answer my questions when making characters from their nationality/culture/belief system. But I hazard that a lot of people keep their Elliquiy side separate from the rest of the Internet and IRL. I suppose that I could ask my non-E friends for help on such matters (in the vein of "hey I'm writing a Chinese character" or "one chapter of my story takes place in Cairo"), but it feels on some level deceptive to query them on things when the primary purpose is going to center around smut no matter how high-minded. And even more awkward if they ask to see the story in question.

Regarding things of a lesser degree or that aren't held as taboo for outsiders such as kimono, mainly what I've seen is if it's appropriate for the person to be wearing it. Such as various ceremonies where if one is in Japan and that's the standard attire, or if someone is somewhere where that's just what people wear, that's just fine. "Does it make sense for the person to be wearing that? Then it's fine." If in a fantasy setting someone is traveling through wide open lands with the sun beating down on them wearing a kasa is just practical.

Free Fanfic vs For-Profit is also why I have such different exceptions for someone just in an RP vs a multi-million dollar international company. I wouldn't tell someone in an RP they need to hire a consultant, just to try to learn more. If I know what to search for I'd mention such things to them. Or refer them to places/people that know more than me if they wish to check them out.

Very much this. It is a bit related, although with one of my world-building thread I've been asking help for Elliquiyans from certain countries in doing writeups of their countries in a superhero universe. I don't ask for much nor do I push if there isn't interest, but it's still more work than if I just wrote whatever came to mind. Then again I'm a bit of a perfectionist at times, so I'm aware that a lot of other writers may want to be more casual about things but still want to set their story in a relatively unfamiliar locale or culture.

I actually notice that when it comes to system/tabletop RPs this is a bit harder due to the fact that there's more expectations of world-building. Whereas in a traditional freeform RP you only need to really focus on the characters and events "right there."