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Author Topic: I'm a Scientologist  (Read 5574 times)

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Offline Jude

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2009, 12:06:52 AM »
I don't like this. It is far too much like the 'humorous' propaganda cartoons Germany produced about Jewish people before WWII. These people made a choice to follow this religion. I am sickened that a person's spiritual beliefs, however ridiculous they sound, are the subject of crude jokes.
Keep going, you're bordering Godwin's law.

(Hint:  I bolded the portion of your own statement that disproves it)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 12:08:57 AM by RandomNumber »

Offline Dim Hon

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Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2009, 12:15:30 AM »
Godwin's Law being that everything ends on the net up about nazis, right? Just like every dream you have means you either want a penis or boink your mother, and that you always turn into the person you hate, and there is always a miracle at christmas. 

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Offline Jude

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2009, 12:39:40 AM »
There's two parts to Godwin's law.  1:  Every conversation, assuming it goes on long enough, will eventually reach a comparison in some form to the Nazis.  2:  The person who makes such a comparison loses the argument.

The bolded part was a separate issue.  I just think the fact that they chose it makes them open to criticism, thus defeating your point in its premise.

Offline Dim Hon

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Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2009, 12:41:24 AM »
An opinion; I'm allowed to have one.

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2009, 12:50:49 AM »
An opinion; I'm allowed to have one.

We can surgically remove that for you if you like. 

Anyways.....

there is no shortage of strange religions.  Scientology is mainly singled out because it has celebrity appeal.  There were an umber of such cults and religions that were born in the 60's and 70's that were equally appalling and equally questionable.  Most people forget about them....

Offline Jude

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2009, 12:58:49 AM »
And what's a cult?  An unpopular religion. :D

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2009, 01:06:42 AM »
And what's a cult?  An unpopular religion. :D

Depends.

Cults and religions differ, largely in how they propegate and gain members and resources. 

Christianity is a religion.  It is vastly unpopular in some places.  Islam is also a religion.  It's even more unpopular in other places.  Neither could be called a cult.  Scientology is called a cult because of it's business practices, more than its religious values.  Likewise, most neo-Wiccan groups would be considered cults, rather than a religion, because of the lack of unity it suffers among it's own worshipers, but it's actually quite popular.


cult
  /kʌlt/
Ėnoun
1.a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.the object of such devotion.
4.a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6.a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7.the members of such a religion or sect.
8.any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

re⋅li⋅gion
  /rɪˈlɪdʒən/
Ėnoun
1.    a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.    a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.    the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.    the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.    the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.    something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.    religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8.    Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

Note that almsot all religions can be defined as cults, but the inverse is not true.....

Offline Jude

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2009, 01:08:39 AM »
I remember having that argument with my world's religions teacher.  Was very fun, I'll spare you the long and short and simply agree with you instead of being a prick about it :P

Offline Dim Hon

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Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2009, 01:24:15 AM »
And what's a cult?  An unpopular religion. :D

What defines a religion as unpopular to you? I am so not a fan of Christianity it hurts, but does that make it a cult? Well, is use to be... but that's not the point. My religion has very few followers, but it has a very low number of critiques compared to the number that Islam, Hinduism, or atheism has (and I'm talking about percent ratio) - does the lack of followers say it's unpopular? Or is it more popular than one of the leading religions in the world?

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2009, 01:24:33 AM »
I'm curious about the long and short, you can always PM me.  I'm not easily riled, generally speaking.

Though, I note I misspoke when I said Islam and Christianity could not rightly be called cults....

Offline Jude

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2009, 01:28:09 AM »
An unpopular religion is simply a religion without a large following or societal acceptance.

As for what the "short" of it is, I simply argued with my teacher that the cult branding is a hypocritical label designed by mainstream society (which is religious) aimed at judging all other religions as illegitimate by definition during their inception.

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2009, 01:31:09 AM »
Interesting argument - though, it holds true through the past, when Christianity was considered a cult by the Roman pantheists....

It should be interesting to see how Scientology evolves.

Offline Dim Hon

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Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2009, 01:36:15 AM »
An unpopular religion is simply a religion without a large following or societal acceptance.


Then I violently disagree with your statement of "unpopular" religions being cults. I am not offended, but my choice of religion, while not socially viewed as acceptable, is my choice, just like those who follow Scientology, or any of the other religions in the world. You labling all minor religions as cults is, in a word, ridiculous.   

Offline Jude

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2009, 01:46:48 AM »
Then I violently disagree with your statement of "unpopular" religions being cults. I am not offended, but my choice of religion, while not socially viewed as acceptable, is my choice, just like those who follow Scientology, or any of the other religions in the world. You labling all minor religions as cults is, in a word, ridiculous.
Or maybe it's ridiculous to honestly be convinced that you understand the mysteries of the universe (which is what a religion IS).  I'm agnostic myself because I wouldn't even dream of pretending to understand the inner workings of reality.  For all humans know and understand, the origins of life is kinda beyond us.

Offline Dim Hon

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Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2009, 01:50:42 AM »
... My religion claims nothing of the sort. What you describe is exactly why I dislike and distrust mainstream religions.

Offline Jude

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2009, 01:54:52 AM »
... My religion claims nothing of the sort. What you describe is exactly why I dislike and distrust mainstream religions.
I have to admit, I'm intrigued.  I've never come across a religion that doesn't try to be a kaleidoscope through which you view all things.  'cept maybe Buddhism, but I'd consider that a philosophy for that very reason.  Maybe I'd consider your religion a philosophy?  I have nothing wrong with philosophies, 'cause they don't claim to be absolute truth.  They're formulated attempts at truth, but they admit the "formulated" part (unlike religions).

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2009, 02:01:15 AM »
There are sects of Buddhism that are philosophical in nature, but those are seperate and distinct from Buddhism as a whole.  Zen or Ch'an Buddhism is the specific instance.  Buddhism is definitely a religion, and not a philosophy.  Taoism, on the other hand, is a philosophy that can be viewed religiously, or can incorporate a religion into it's philosophical outlook.

I really should research Scientology.


Offline Jude

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2009, 02:04:53 AM »
There are sects of Buddhism that are philosophical in nature, but those are seperate and distinct from Buddhism as a whole.  Zen or Ch'an Buddhism is the specific instance.  Buddhism is definitely a religion, and not a philosophy.  Taoism, on the other hand, is a philosophy that can be viewed religiously, or can incorporate a religion into it's philosophical outlook.

I really should research Scientology.
See, I disagree with you there.  I think if you look at the original teachings and documents Buddhism is based on, it is a philosophy, but it's been perverted into a religion by certain sects.  Such as the Dhali Llama's circus.

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2009, 02:14:16 AM »
All religions start off as philosophies, generally speaking.  They become religions later.  This si true of any of the ancient religions.  Christianity was based on a philosophy: love they neighbor, love one another, love the creator.  Buddhism was based on the idea of achieving a point of enlightenment such that that it put you outside the creation that deity made - by definition it implied that there was deity and creation involved.

Eden's point is still valid of course.  I can only imagine how long this movie would have lasted if it had been directed at say, Christianity, or Islam.  I've seen joke flash movies about those of course....but so publicly viewable?  I doubt it would have been let lie. 

There is no religion or philosophy that can claim 'we have no blood on our hands'.

Offline Dim Hon

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Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2009, 02:14:41 AM »
I'm not comfortable talking in a public area about my religion, but if you want to PM me about it, that's cool.

Offline TheWriter

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2009, 03:20:51 AM »
If Eden's religion is what I think it is, given its history hir reaction to the negative stimga that Scientology carries is entirely acceptable.  Having said that I laughed at the video, not so much at the additions but at the original testimonies as well.  Implying that in any major disaster or such, only a Scientologist has the power to help, for instance. 

Personally I don't see it as anything more than a self-help program with a self-importance complex, but having read the stories of things like Operation Freakout, Snow White, fair game and Auditing Process R2-45, the lengths they will go to do mimic the mindset of the Catholics back in the days of the Inquisition.  One has to wonder when the world's rich and famous will start a crusade against the humble Suppressive Person.

Offline Noisekick

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2009, 01:51:54 PM »
I believe in the Sumerian neopaganism and my religion sees intersexed individuals as sacred. I myself think they are sacred and thats why my religion suits me.

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2009, 06:49:55 PM »
Eden, all I meant by what I said was that your reaction kind of defeats itself. Your upset that the video is having a laugh at peoples beliefs, but really, jumping in and being all "Oh thats not right!" only manages to widen that cultural barrier your pointing out.

In a tolerant world, a black man and a jew could walk into a gay bar and call the priest at the other stool a kiddy fiddler, then they would all laugh, pool up some stools, throw a few 'niggers' and 'money hoarders' out there, then invite the pirates and ninjas over for pool.

But the one dude or dudette in the corner who goes "You can't say that! Thats racist!" he or she is the one holding society back.

So, I laughed at a video that quite openly has a go at Scientology. I can honestly say that if I were a Scientologist, I would still laugh. If I were a devout Christian, and saw a video online of the Pope getting hit by a train with bad sound effects and voice over for effect, I would be in stitches. If I were Asian, and someone on the street called me a chink and told me to go back to my country, I would chuckle and tell them to go fuck themselves right back.

Thats a tolerant world in my books. Everyone can say whatever they want about anyone and as long as its without malice or hate, its all good.

To the subject of Scientology, however, yes, they operate as a cult. Very different to a religion.

Offline Oniya

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Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2009, 07:10:51 PM »
In a tolerant world, a black man and a jew could walk into a gay bar and call the priest at the other stool a kiddy fiddler, then they would all laugh, pool up some stools, throw a few 'niggers' and 'money hoarders' out there, then invite the pirates and ninjas over for pool.

Sabby - have you ever watched the movie Blazing Saddles?  If not, run out and rent the DVD (or get it at the library).  See if you can find the version with the commentary, because that movie - as irreverent as it is - has a very powerful message about tolerance that I honestly feel is muted by the 'sanitized' version that you see on TV.

Offline GothicFires

Re: I'm a Scientologist
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2009, 07:28:23 PM »
Tolerance is not about being able to laugh about all things equally. It is also about being able to respect other people's feelings in regards to what they believe. You can be funny with out being disrespectful regardless if you think that what the other person believes is nonsense.

A cult is a religious group that centers power around one individual. I have never heard of one person controlling Scientology. Cults are generally hard to leave, being reinforced by fear. To keep control of the believers the Cults are generally grouped in one area or have several groups in many areas. Scientology has world wide followers who can choose to stop believing in Scientology when ever they choose... that is not a cult.

I have avoided this thread because discussing religion with people not of my faith has generally given me a headache or worse. I am pagan. I have had to deal with being told by my Christian parents I was going to hell... to my face. Yet I will gladly tell anyone I am happy my mother is Christian because it helps her... and I don't believe in Christianity.

this is a copy of my favorite poem written during world war 2. It signifies how important it is to protect the rights for others to believe differently than you do and to give them respect even if they believe differently from you.

First they came for the Communists,
  and I didnít speak up,
    because I wasnít a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
  and I didnít speak up,
    because I wasnít a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
  and I didnít speak up,
    because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
  and by that time there was no one
    left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

I watched that video in the first post of this thread. I am not a Scientologist and I didn't laugh. I found it to be not only disrespectful but offensive and not in the least funny. Though people have a right to say what they want, I really don't think it belongs here.

(edits because i really hate when i misspell or misstype words)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 07:33:36 PM by GothicFires »