Coronavirus: Discussion and Information

[Annaamarth]

Yep.

[Lilias]

Also (because Science mag is the gift that keeps on giving today), reason the umpteenth why the 'young people have nothing much to fear' attitude is rubbish and will get people killed:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/04/clear-link-emerges-between-covid-19-and-pregnancy-complications

[Iniquitous]

You are using the argument of personal bias here which isn't a valid argument. Just because you happen to know sufferers who can wear face coverings, it does not follow that all sufferers can wear face coverings.

There are many and varied medical reasons why people cannot wear face coverings and should not be made to wear them. To force a severe asthmatic sufferer or a person with acute claustrophobia to cover their face is grotesque. To argue against this is simply gross insensitivity. If a medical doctor told you this then they are either wrong or they were not a properly accredited medical doctor. Either way, I'd be inclined to be highly circumspect about their ethics.

I work in a place that does NOT have to let unmasked people inside.  The medical doctor who tends to the prisoners has been a medical doctor longer than I have been alive (48 years) and I think I trust him over people on the internet saying there are medical reasons to not wear a mask.  If a person truly cannot wear a mask they don't need to be in public during a pandemic. Period.  But I still say there is no medical reason to not wear a mask and I'll say it to a person's face that tries to claim they can't wear one.  I am not sympathetic about this because I think it boils down to people using any excuse to not be inconvenienced.

[Oniya]

There are many and varied medical reasons why people cannot wear face coverings and should not be made to wear them. To force a severe asthmatic sufferer or a person with acute claustrophobia to cover their face is grotesque. To argue against this is simply gross insensitivity. If a medical doctor told you this then they are either wrong or they were not a properly accredited medical doctor. Either way, I'd be inclined to be highly circumspect about their ethics.

I'm still trying to sort out why 'wait here in the "no masks required area" and let us go into the "masks required area" to do your shopping for you' isn't a reasonable accommodation. 

[TheGlyphstone]

I'm wondering if the UK has a completely opposite definition of 'too PC' from the US.

[Annaamarth]

I'm still trying to sort out why 'wait here in the "no masks required area" and let us go into the "masks required area" to do your shopping for you' isn't a reasonable accommodation.

To be fair, "reasonable accommodation" is a term with legal weight - which can vary from nation to nation, or even region to region.

I won't assume fluency in other people's codices or lexicons and I certainly won't judge someone harshly for sticking by their principles - as long as they have good reasons (respect for others is a good one).  Bonus points if they can acknowledge my own perspective (in this case, respect for others includes respect for collective hazards).

@Haibane I do envy that you don't have packs of unmasked people in your stores posing a safety hazard. I am not similarly blessed - this may be part of my differently-accomodating position.

[Haibane]

Meanwhile in Florida... Is this the education Americans go into debt for?

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/04/florida-private-school-threatens-jobs-teachers-who-seek-covid-19-vaccines

I am not a praying person but the thought "Dear God help us" came to mind on reading that. That policy is all kinds of fucked up. I hope whoever owns and funds the private school has the sense to reverse that insane decision.

Tens of thousands of women all over the world have recently been reporting adverse reproductive issues simply from being in close proximity with those who have received any one of the COVID-19 injections, e.g., irregular menses, bleeding, miscarriages, post-menopausal hemorrhaging, and amenorrhea (complete loss of menstruation).

No one knows exactly what may be causing these irregularities, but it appears that those who have received the injections may be transmitting something from their bodies to those with whom they come in contact.

Honestly this ranks up there with the space lasers starting wildfires bullshit. People who think like this should not have positions of authority.

[Haibane]

I'm still trying to sort out why 'wait here in the "no masks required area" and let us go into the "masks required area" to do your shopping for you' isn't a reasonable accommodation.

Its just not necessary in the UK due to the extremely tiny number of people who go shopping and need to be unmasked. The risk of such tiny numbers doesn't cause an issue in the wide scheme of the statistics. I think here we simply have a small percentage who really are in need of no face covering and another factor might be the hesitancy for British people to "cause a scene" and so if they choose not to wear a mask they possibly get someone else to shop for them, or just shop online from home, rather than enjoy a fracas and possible police intervention outside a supermarket, while waving camera phones about and posting the drama on Twitter claiming they live in a police state. We generally just don't think that way here.

I do not know how prevalent the "I'm not wearing a mask" issue is in the USA but I can guess its far worse than here.

@Haibane I do envy that you don't have packs of unmasked people in your stores posing a safety hazard. I am not similarly blessed - this may be part of my differently-accomodating position.

Yes, UK citizens do appear to be far more compliant with rules that some other countries. Yes we get our anti-vaxxers and our no-maskers but they tend to gather in protests and occupy public spaces in cities for a day or so to make their point. Meanwhile the supermarkets and other big retailers carry on enforcing the rules as required.

I can't comment on how law enforcement deals with these social matters in other countries but here in the UK our police (on the whole, there have been some unpleasant blips) have dealt with lockdown and masking rules very fairly and vigilantly and I think UK citizens realise the police here mean business and generally just comply. We don't have that strain of "revolution and freedom at any cost" running through our veins that seems to cause bigger problems elsewhere.

I apologise if it seems insulting that I continue to use the USA as an example of where anti-this and anti-that are problems but the UK news may well be slanted as we usually get a more prolific news feed about US domestic events than on mainland Europe. For example the British media appears to be entirely silent on the awful issues Beorning is highlighting in Poland, but I suppose the very different attitudes between say UK and US are at the root of this and I suspect that is why my initial comments in the other thread drew so much strong opinion out - where others may live the anti-mask and medical needs argument may be entirely different and therefore may require quite different solutions.

[Haibane]

I trust him over people on the internet saying there are medical reasons to not wear a mask.

Its not "people on the internet" saying this, its medical professionals and pandemic experts. The UK govt. advice says this, the CDC says this. You will find the exact same exemptions in almost every single government guide anywhere in the free world. This advice isn't from politicians, but from doctors. For me that is sufficient evidence to suggest that the medical person advising you is incorrect, or possibly biased. We know there are medical conditions (some physical, some mental) that prevent a person's face being covered. I freely admit this is an extremely small number of cases and I also freely admit that liars and anti-maskers are abusing this loophole, especially in the USA, but there are some cases where its a real and valid concern. One of the problematic issues is identifying the genuine cases.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover-guidance.html

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/face-coverings-masks-and-covid-19/when-to-wear.html#not-wear

https://jamanetwork.com/channels/health-forum/fullarticle/2768376

If a person truly cannot wear a mask they don't need to be in public during a pandemic.[/quite]

Outside of a few very essential work places nobody does do they? Not really, not when you get down to the very basic issues. But people choose to go out. If everybody who didn't "need to be in public during a pandemic" made the wise choice to stay at home, the world would have suffered many, many less deaths than it has.

Disabled and medically differently abled people have the right to go outside and socialise just like anybody else, don't they? What about the freedoms of the mentally ill? Who are you to say they cannot have the same freedoms you have? You see where that leads eventually? Different rules for different people and our societies have been fighting hard uphill battles for decades to get us to a place where all must be treated equally.

I find it astonishing and somewhat disturbing that we're having this conversation. The rights of people are paramount and in this case I'm discussing an extremely tiny proportion of the whole. I am - I repeat - not making excuses for the anti-mask fraudsters. They need to be exposed and shamed for what they are.

I really think you and I are seeing the one problem from two very different points of view. Your experience seems to be shaped by a society where there's a very strong trend to not want to wear masks, though please forgive me if I'm wrong. I am in a society where the exact opposite is true. Its these two different backgrounds that give us our different opinions. For me having mentally and physically disabled people able to enjoy socialising during a pandemic and who cannot wear a face covering for legitimate reasons is a basic right and freedom we should be respecting. The problem elsewhere might be that there are so many cheats and liars using what I'll call medical condition fraud as a cover for not wearing a mask that it has become a massive social issue and the cost of that argument falls on the minority who have a genuine and real need. That's the problem. That's the kind of situation that arsehole Trump has created by politicising mask wearing.

[Haibane]

Drat, I messed up the quote code on that last paragraph. It should read:

If a person truly cannot wear a mask they don't need to be in public during a pandemic.

Outside of a few very essential work places nobody does do they? Not really, not when you get down to the very basic issues. But people choose to go out. If everybody who didn't "need to be in public during a pandemic" made the wise choice to stay at home, the world would have suffered many, many less deaths than it has.

Disabled and medically differently abled people have the right to go outside and socialise just like anybody else, don't they? What about the freedoms of the mentally ill? Who are you to say they cannot have the same freedoms you have? You see where that leads eventually? Different rules for different people and our societies have been fighting hard uphill battles for decades to get us to a place where all must be treated equally.

I find it astonishing and somewhat disturbing that we're having this conversation. The rights of people are paramount and in this case I'm discussing an extremely tiny proportion of the whole. I am - I repeat - not making excuses for the anti-mask fraudsters. They need to be exposed and shamed for what they are.

I really think you and I are seeing the one problem from two very different points of view. Your experience seems to be shaped by a society where there's a very strong trend to not want to wear masks, though please forgive me if I'm wrong. I am in a society where the exact opposite is true. Its these two different backgrounds that give us our different opinions. For me having mentally and physically disabled people able to enjoy socialising during a pandemic and who cannot wear a face covering for legitimate reasons is a basic right and freedom we should be respecting. The problem elsewhere might be that there are so many cheats and liars using what I'll call medical condition fraud as a cover for not wearing a mask that it has become a massive social issue and the cost of that argument falls on the minority who have a genuine and real need. That's the problem. That's the kind of situation that arsehole Trump has created by politicising mask wearing.

[Annaamarth]

I apologise if it seems insulting that I continue to use the USA as an example of where anti-this and anti-that are problems ...

No need to apologise to me. Not your fault many of my countrymen are dumb as PopRocks.

Neurons fire a couple of times, then they melt.

Disabled and medically differently abled people have the right to go outside and socialise just like anybody else, don't they? What about the freedoms of the mentally ill? Who are you to say they cannot have the same freedoms you have? You see where that leads eventually? Different rules for different people and our societies have been fighting hard uphill battles for decades to get us to a place where all must be treated equally.

I am not attempting to revoke the rights of others - and I in fact encourage people to socialize - outside, in a well ventilated area.

However, when a disability cannot be reasonably accommodated, then ... it cannot. A severe epileptic or narcoleptic may have their driver's license revoked, and a colour blind person cannot join the US military - it's important to be able to identify certain things by colour.

These are examples if things that can't be resolved. It sucks.

But there is no "right to go outside" or "right to go where everyone else can go" in US law.  There is a right against unlawful imprisonment - but a business has the right to refuse services on certain grounds, or only allow access to certain people - such as CostCo, a retail chain that sells in bulk and requires a paid membership for entry.

Under the US ADA, masklessness, whether for a disability or not, is not a thing that must be permitted - but such a person can be serviced if a reasonable accommodation can be found - as in a personal shopper.

Public property (such as a park) falls under slightly different rules, but I am not a lawyer - just a layman with a very narrow focus.

[stormwyrm]

Disabled and medically differently abled people have the right to go outside and socialise just like anybody else, don't they? What about the freedoms of the mentally ill? Who are you to say they cannot have the same freedoms you have? You see where that leads eventually? Different rules for different people and our societies have been fighting hard uphill battles for decades to get us to a place where all must be treated equally.

Equal treatment under the law is all well and good, but you wouldn't expect a person with severe asthma to be able to join the Navy Seals and be sent on a combat mission. A person with such disability would be a liability out in the field and jeopardise the lives of their team. Such people would be considered medically unfit for service and there is no real shame in that, I think. A similar classification used to be (maybe still sometimes is) used against LGBTQ people as well it is true, but that is neither here nor there. If your health conditions are such that they preclude you from wearing a mask, then you jeopardise the health and the lives of the people around you when you go out and socialise without appropriate protection. What about the rights of the people around them to whom they risk spreading infection to? Are the rights of those disabled people who can't wear masks for whatever reason more important than the rights of other people not to get sick? Definitely, accommodations can and should be made that can see to those people's needs, just as we provide ramps for the wheelchair-bound, but such accommodations should not come at the expense of the health and safety of the people around them.

[Haibane]

I think people are still taking somewhat extreme examples here and hoping they are constructing arguments against my stance but they are not. Of course if a person has a disability that prevents them driving a car or becoming a member of the armed forces then clearly that is life and a wheelchair bound person is never going to be a paratrooper or a fighter pilot.

All the arguments of this nature are fatuous and need to stop.

I am talking about no difference between two individuals except that A is healthy and has no issue wearing a facemask and B who cannot solely because of critical medical issues.

Now because of this single difference people here are arguing that its okay for person A to go out in a pandemic with a mask but not okay for person B to go out in a pandemic without a mask. That is the entire issue. They are not training to be navy seals or anything so daft as that, they both just want to go and buy their groceries.

I'm not asking for a "right to go outside" or anything like that. I am arguing that B has the same rights to be treated identically as A. The only difference being that B cannot wear a face covering for medical reasons while A suffers no such restriction.

Again, to clarify, I am not advocating mass maskless action by thousands of people. I'm not supporting anti-mask medical claim fraud. I am just saying that in a very, very tiny number of genuine cases, something like, oh... 1 in several thousand (or several hundred) or so perhaps, it is not okay to deny the disabled person their rights in this instance. That 1 in X,000 is not going to make any statistical difference to the pandemic in any way. This tiny number of cases are, statistically, not going to affect the R0 number. We see small numbers of maskless people in grocery and home furnishing shops in the UK. People are not having punch-ups in car parks over this and store security are not frog-marching people off the premises while they scream and rant. Its working. Its fine. At least here in the UK it is. I don't speak to these maskless people and just keep a distance. For all any of us know they've had a recent negative test or are already vaccinated.

People in this discussion seem to be intent into making this into a massive issue, when its not, at least in the UK it's not. Where you live it might be and therefore your local community and business security needs will be different. I am sure many of you are angered by seeing ranting crazy anti-maskers being accused of lying over their medical status and in that case I have full sympathy but again that is not what I am talking about. It upsets me to hear that the proportion of fraudsters in the USA appears to be so high now that nobody, even with a genuine reason, is able to go without a mask in certain circumstances, such as on an airline flight. And that's wrong.

We've been denying disabled people their (mobility) rights for decades, if not centuries and equality must come before anything else, and be maintained before anything else.

At that point I will close. No more from me on this subject.

[Annaamarth]

Disagrees.

I can respect that.  I think "fatuous" is a strong word, but I won't further belabor or bedevil.

[Azuresun]

So the latest narrative to be spun in the anti-vaxxer echo chambers is that India are suffering so much because they stopped using every anti-vaxxer's favourite miracle cure, anti-parasitic drug Ivermectin and started vaccinating instead.

Every time you think they've hit rock bottom, they pull out a shovel and get right on diggin'.

[Haibane]

The situation in India is truly dreadful. Cataclysmic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-56913348

[Blythe]

The situation in India is truly dreadful. Cataclysmic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-56913348

I've been watching so much news related to India; my heart goes out to them.

Oxygen tankers with police escorts, people dying in the cars of their loved ones because hospitals are full, bodies piling up and (and your article says) mass cremations.

The word 'cataclysmic' is tragically acurrate to describe how bad it's been in that nation dealing with Covid-19. 

[Annaamarth]

Mass cremations are, in this context, good. The problem is that the infrastructure for body handling is, at this point, overwhelmed and there is no feeling of safety for the corpus of loved ones.  I don't know how important that is in Hindi cultures, but most western cultures value that.

Old video, but there is an American mortician who does some death education. This is during an explosion of deaths in the LA area that was, I believe, less cataclysmic than this - if only because Delhi is more awful to begin with.

https://youtu.be/QdpSgEQKVNE

[Annaamarth]

I don't know how important that is in Hindi cultures, but most western cultures value that.

Ah, and now I know better. VERY important.

At least the pyres are still individual.

[Envious]

If a person truly cannot wear a mask they don't need to be in public during a pandemic. Period.  But I still say there is no medical reason to not wear a mask and I'll say it to a person's face that tries to claim they can't wear one.  I am not sympathetic about this because I think it boils down to people using any excuse to not be inconvenienced.

You can say it all you want; it doesn't make you any less wrong.

I should not wear a mask because it causes me real medical issues. This isn't limited to masks. I cannot wear many types of sunglasses, headbands, hats, helmets, and I even have to be careful about how I put my hair up! This isn't new - it's been a part of my life since childhood. The narrative that all people who complain about masks are doing it for selfish reasons rankles me, but I'll concede that it's very likely that most are insincere. I know my truth is being stamped down by people who are trying to maintain a lifestyle at the possible expense of others, but it doesn't make it any less true.

[Haibane]

Thank you Envious. *sends hugs* There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the points I was making. I cannot really understand how your life must be but I do feel desperately frustrated when I try to argue a point and it feels like a brick wall has been put up in front of me and people just don't get it.

[RedRose]

India: cannot handle this. I got sick once there and drove to the "clinic" (really not deserving the name). I didn't even enter. I decided I was better off sick away from it. But again it wasn't a big thing. I remember when they claimed they had it under control...

France (no comparison): according to health ministry, 25% astra zeneca doses are "lost" (people not coming?). In the meantime it's only for those 55 and more and in many place 60 unofficially. This is KAFKAIAN.

[stormwyrm]

This is KAFKAIAN.

Do you perhaps mean Kafkaesque? That seems to be the word to describe the state of a good part of the world these days.

[Swidi]

India: cannot handle this. I got sick once there and drove to the "clinic" (really not deserving the name). I didn't even enter. I decided I was better off sick away from it. But again it wasn't a big thing. I remember when they claimed they had it under control...

what year was this and what was the name of the place you were at? there are different levels of medical care facilities that range from ghastly to world class

i am from india and on a separate note, my best friend who lives next door has tested positive for covid so i got him groceries, medicines etc earlier in the day

a lot of people in pharmacies were seeking over the counter medicines for cold symptoms. at that moment my mask couldn't be tight enough.

[Lilias]

Arundhati Roy is not pulling her punches.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/apr/28/crime-against-humanity-arundhati-roy-india-covid-catastrophe