The Dehumanization Of Conservatives

[Skynet]

I don't disagree, but I would argue that this is also true of the Left (although, perhaps, to a lesser degree), particularly the more radical elements.  Consider this TED talk given by a feminist documentarian who wanted to investigate the Men's Rights movement.  One of the saddest, and most profound statements, she makes is worth noting and repeating:

Like the OP, I have seen this take place time and again.  Consider the friction between pro-trans feminists and TERFs (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists).  We humans are completely incapable of seeing nuance: everything must be black or white; everyone must either be a hero or a villain.  There is absolutely no in-between.  We should know better, we really should, that life is not so two-dimensional as we make it out to be; and yet we call for someone's head on a pike whenever they are caught speaking or behaving in a way that does not live up to our ideals.  This, just like the type of blind-faith loyalty to party that got Trump elected in the first place, is tribalism at its worst, and we must be ever-vigilant to catch it in ourselves as well as in our opponents.

I don't think that transphobic people who take the guise of feminism are a good example in your analogy, in part because they as a movement have gone further and further away from the political left, up to and including making alliances with the Religious Right and outright Neo-Nazis in a shared enemy of trans people, so it's less of an interfactional dispute so much as it's a case of left-right fighting with TERFS in the right-wing. Not to mention blocking pro-LGBT legislation in general and being willing to throw away the rest of the LGB+ alphabet if it will help the T shows their cards in a very pertinent way. There's already been plenty of debates in regards to this issue, to the point that the people saying they wish to "start a dialogue" aren't doing so in good faith. This is just as applicable to "gender-critical TERFs" as it is to the Alt-Right or the Klan or people who continue to support Trump. A lot of them are motivated by malice.

I've talked about it elsewhere and there are some articles I can link:

A post I made a while ago in the news thread.

General purpose thread and YT video on transphobia in the UK

A former TERF explains why she left her peers, including their buddying up with white supremacists among other things.

Your earlier example of befriending Klansmen above and saying how this "shows them that we merely want human rights and don't want to tear down their beloved structures" is really only helpful when your opponents are ignorant rather than being maliciously deceitful, aren't being motivated by anger, and that the structures they want to uphold can be reformed to positive means. It's the difference between abolishing the concept of police vs abolishing ICE.

I recall the saying by Machiavelli that it's better to be feared than hated; both emotions have people holding you in contempt, but those who fear you merely wish to get out of your way. Those who hate you are willing to suffer to bring you harm. If you hate someone, then you don't want to extend them the same rights that you enjoy. At that point good-natured debate isn't really on the table.

[HannibalBarca]

Skynet, your quote of Machiavelli was slightly in error, but the correct version makes your point even more strongly:

“It is much safer to be feared than loved because ... love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.”

Those who are at that point of fearing rather than loving are mentally ill.  From my studies of psychology I've come to the conclusion that mental stability or illness is on a spectrum, like most things in the world, and there is a lot more of it than most people realize, just like there are hundreds of millions of people each year neither fully healthy, nor completely rotten sick, but somewhere in-between.  It's my opinion that people such as TERFs and Trump-lovers are suffering from some past trauma that affected their considerations so deeply, that they cannot but seek the "safety" that such black-and-white thinking (immature, undeveloped thinking) affords an individual.  When you're suffering from some internal issue, black-and-white thinking cuts down on the energy needed to deal with life.

[Skynet]

I'll respectfully disagree in regards to this. I'm a bit leery of linking mental illness to bigotry on account that it posits prejudice as a chemical imbalance in the brain, or that one has to be "wrong in the head" to be hateful. It can dilute the idea that hatred and prejudice is present in everyone, albeit to lesser and greater degrees and can come even from people who have an otherwise "normal" life.

[Skynet]

To clarify, I'm certain that many such people have some problems in their personal lives which caused them to blame others for their problems, but this isn't really mental illness so much as an inevitability of human gullibility and fear in general that can occur even from the best of us.

[Aiden]

It's my opinion that people such as TERFs and Trump-lovers are suffering from some past trauma that affected their considerations so deeply, that they cannot but seek the "safety" that such black-and-white thinking (immature, undeveloped thinking) affords an individual.  When you're suffering from some internal issue, black-and-white thinking cuts down on the energy needed to deal with life.

I'll share my opinion.

As much as I opnely despise Trump and his supporters, I also loathe the "alt-left" and their nonsense.


We grew up in a country with so much freedom and privilege we became spoiled and entitled shitbags. Our greatest struggle in a country (on a surface level) is masks and vaccines.

The side I vote on doesn't publically endorse children's concentration camps and blatant racism. (only subtle racism)

[Remiel]

We grew up in a country with so much freedom and privilege we became spoiled and entitled shitbags. Our greatest struggle in a country (on a surface level) is masks and vaccines.

Aiden's not wrong.  Or, to put it another way:

Alt-text:Image of Veruca Salt from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.  Caption compares USA to wanting the result without the effort.

But that's another topic.

I do think Hannibal is onto something.  I've seen some of the studies he's referring to, or at least read about them, heard them referenced on NPR, etc.  It would seem that people who are driven strongly by what I'll call "the fear impulse" tend to vote conservative.   People who perceive themselves to be threatened, to be under attack, want to maintain the status quo, and look to authoritarian leadership to do so.  Heck, Trump doesn't even pretend to do otherwise--"Make America Great Again", implying that America was great once (the 50s?), but isn't now.  I don't know that I'd call them mentally ill, though.  They're just more sensitive to the fear impulse.  They're the kind of people that buy extra locks for their doors, that live in gated communities, that invest in unnecessary security systems.  Because the world is apparently a scary place.

And I'll tell you something.  My mother is a fervent Trump supporter and Fox News consumer, and she donates literally hundreds of dollars a month to various right-wing causes.  Obviously, I'm dismayed by this, but at least I'll give her credit for putting her money where her mouth is.  And I've sat down and watched Fox on occasion, to see what the appeal is, and I've looked through all the junk mail she gets asking for donations, and you know what?  It's all pretty much a variation on the same thing.  The liberals--Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, AOC, Ilan Omar--are coming for our Bibles, our guns, our freedoms.  They want to tear down America and re-make it into some kind of socialist utopia.  And only Donald Trump or (insert Republican candidate here) is stopping them.

What I'm trying to say is that the Right trades in fear.  It's their bread and butter.  When white middle-class America turns on their TV and sees coverage of angry protestors setting buildings on fire, it sends them, like my mother, running to their checkbooks to write checks to Republican candidates.  Cries of "Defund the police" are actually music to Donald Trump's ears (see my previous post). 

We can't allow them to have that weapon. Our best weapon is showing them the humanity of the immigrant children separated from their parents at the border, of black people being brutalized by police, of LGT people who just want to get married and have a family just like everybody else.  The moment we let the Right frame the issue as "they're trying to take x away from you," we've lost.

[SomethingGeneric1234]

Regarding American conservatives, I'd say this turnabout is fair play.

Republicans have spent the last 50 years demonizing LGBTQ lifestyles, every minority that exists (most especially blacks and since 2016 hispanics). It's not exactly HEALTHY to dehumanize your political opponents but after 50 years of dehumanizing everyone who isnt a WASP, you had to expect this sort of reaction.

[Aiden]

Regarding American conservatives, I'd say this turnabout is fair play.

Republicans have spent the last 50 years demonizing LGBTQ lifestyles, every minority that exists (most especially blacks and since 2016 hispanics). It's not exactly HEALTHY to dehumanize your political opponents but after 50 years of dehumanizing everyone who isnt a WASP, you had to expect this sort of reaction.

Blacks and Hispanics have been demonized for FAR longer than 2016, it just wasn't endorsed by the Executive branch (openly)

[SomethingGeneric1234]

Oh I know on both, but it really felt to me like hispanics were sort of falling by the wayside in terms of getting discriminated against and then it came back with a vengeance in '16.

[Callie Del Noire]

I’m not happy with either party but I’ve been a RINO for many years and I’ve never voted single ticket. These days it’s more about reading and listening to the candidates and down here in Florida...I might do my full ticket vote, and it won’t be the GOP. I see not one leader, not one ounce of ethical standing or intestinal fortitude or backbone. I want statesmen and leaders..not party members in lockstep behind a populist tyrant who only respects the constitution when it benefits him.

[Remiel]

I’m not happy with either party but I’ve been a RINO for many years and I’ve never voted single ticket. These days it’s more about reading and listening to the candidates and down here in Florida...I might do my full ticket vote, and it won’t be the GOP. I see not one leader, not one ounce of ethical standing or intestinal fortitude or backbone. I want statesmen and leaders..not party members in lockstep behind a populist tyrant who only respects the constitution when it benefits him.

Sums up my stance entirely.  I liked John McCain, I liked Mitt Romney, I think either one would have made a great President.  Donald Trump is a narcissist megalomaniac who is destroying America and I'm convinced he will be judged by history as the worst President we have ever had.  That is not an exaggeration.

[Oniya]

Sums up my stance entirely.  I liked John McCain, I liked Mitt Romney, I think either one would have made a great President.  Donald Trump is a narcissist megalomaniac who is destroying America and I'm convinced he will be judged by history as the worst President we have ever had.  That is not an exaggeration.

I've been voting Democrat for years, but both of those men have my respect.

And I've seen actual historians agree with your last sentence.  (One of the most edu-taining things on Twitter is watching Kevin Kruse dunk on some of the Trump sycophants.  He brings the receipts like CVS.)

[TheGlyphstone]

I had the deepest respect for John McCain as well - voted for him in 2008, in fact. Didn't regard Romney with much regard though, at least until he proved himself the only sitting member of the GOP willing to vote his conscience with regards to impeachment.

[Remiel]

at least until he proved himself the only sitting member of the GOP willing to vote his conscience with regards to impeachment.

The great deafening silence on the part of the rest of the GOP brings to mind the words of Nice Peter of Epic Rap Battles of History as Abraham Lincoln:

"If this is the best my party can do, my party should quit."

[Tolvo]

Keep in mind McCain supported nearly everything Trump wanted in his voting.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/john-mccain/

[Skynet]

Oh I know on both, but it really felt to me like hispanics were sort of falling by the wayside in terms of getting discriminated against and then it came back with a vengeance in '16.

This was due to the fact that during Bush Jr.'s term he had more sympathies for Latinos than the base of his party (Jeb Bush having a Mexican-American wife was probably a factor). His administration was much more concerned with Arabs and Muslims so he spent time pushing down the anti-Latino sentiment, or at least encouraging the GOP to be more quiet on that front.

With Bush out and Obama in, you saw a flare-up of things like the Arizona immigration law, all eventually culminating in masks off moments with Sheriff Arpaio and President Trump.

[Oniya]

Keep in mind McCain supported nearly everything Trump wanted in his voting.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/john-mccain/

I can respect someone without agreeing with them.  While it's a moot point since the man is dead, McCain would not have been an utter ignoramus in office.

[Twisted Crow]

You know, as much as I sometimes go to bat for Team Red on some things, it isn't like I don't sympathize with some moderates that feel "stuck" on the Blue Ship that feels that the "counter culture" presents other toxic problems. In fact, that is one of the reasons I had a thread about this venting my frustrations.

When I read this thread, I can't help but think of Cancel Culture. I do not see it as a very "Progressive" cause at all. Despite intentions? I feel that it has the potential to go unchecked, and it can be considerably more socially destructive than serviceable. In my eyes, Cancel Culture starts with a very noble intention (at its base roots); People should be held accountable for what harm they do and what they say. Therefore, the common mobs must take matters of justice into it's own hands. But here is my problem with how this often appears to be applied in practice:

Have I ever stolen anything in my life? A hundred bucks from my Dad's wallet on a nightstand? That pen at the post office? Have I ever taken anything that does not belong to me? If my answer is yes, then I am a thief. And I always will be a thief. According to how ruthless CC is in practice (despite whatever intentions may be present), I was a thief then. I am a thief now. I will be a thief tomorrow. Next week. Months later. Years. I will always be a thief and the social pressures and stigmatisms will prevail, wholly denying my attempt to redeem or grow as a human being.

Despite (what I believe) might be well-intended can cause serious harm in the long run. It is why (with today's social media being as interconnected as it is) I try to plead for people to consider other alternatives to mere shaming and the utter erasing of a fellow human beings opportunity to learn and reform themselves as better people in the eyes of their peers. In short. Cancel Culture... good idea? Maybe. But it goes too far to dangerous levels... particularly with the common, everyday people.

[Twisted Crow]

I am also aware that this mainly applies to celebrities... but they are also people. This same mentality is all too easily applied to the average Joe or Jane, in my opinion. It's mainly the execution and approach that I have some issues with, it's 'endgame' if you will.

[Tolvo]

Cancel Culture is generally a made up thing used to try to silence critics, often evoked when people with power hurts others and are called out on it. You end up seeing it time and time again, especially when you are marginalized in various ways because you see the same old big name bigots evoke it when people talk back. Anti-Trans bigots like JK Rowling or Jesse Singal complaining about trans people talking back while the two of them endorse conversion therapy for trans people and quite literally genocide, while disguising it in flowery or deceptive language. Then cry afowl when people call what they're saying what it is, and encourage others to not support or agree with them. Generally as well "Cancelled" people have very little happen to them, even Rowling with people refusing to work for anything related to her and cut ties, is rich and will stay rich and powerful. Cancelling is also mainly from black communities, and white people took it and starting throwing it around willy nilly for everything(Which white people love to do to AAVE).

[Twisted Crow]

Respectfully, whether it is or isn't some socially perceived/skewed construct in phraseology isn't something I really care to argue. If it is a buzz word or not, it's the only term that I have to use that matches what I am attempting to describe. *shrug* 

But when I see this persistent rerun (time and time again) of "Yeah, but screw whatever charities she's representing now. She said this one ignorant thing, that we see as offensive, about 2 decades ago! Back when she was a teenager! Bastardize her! Raise your banners! Everyone to your posts! We are legion!"

Its just...  eh... I can't take part in that for many reasons.

Phone is dying... so I gotta cut this one short. 

[Tolvo]

To be frank, a lot of people with wealth and power love to give scraps to charities to appear better. Charity work isn't a free "Get out of jail card." Except instead of jail it's criticism.

[Remiel]

Respectfully, whether it is or isn't some socially perceived/skewed construct in phraseology isn't something I really care to argue. If it is a buzz word or not, it's the only term that I have to use that matches what I am attempting to describe. *shrug* 

But when I see this persistent rerun (time and time again) of "Yeah, but screw whatever charities she's representing now. She said this one ignorant thing, that we see as offensive, about 2 decades ago! Back when she was a teenager! Bastardize her! Raise your banners! Everyone to your posts! We are legion!"

Its just...  eh... I can't take part in that for many reasons.

Phone is dying... so I gotta cut this one short. 

Agreed 100%.  People should be called out for what they say, absolutely (Kelly Osbourne, anyone?)  but the cancel-culture sentiment of "we must destroy them, ruin their reputation, make it so they are unemployable" is just so very...4chan.

[Fox Lokison]

There's a lot to be said on cancelling, but I think Angie Speaks sums it up quite well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-x9A9FntmU

At the end of the day, nuance is important, and we often lose that. I'm not going to be against deplatforming people who again and again use their power and influence to do harm, but it bleeds over. Extremism is a disease that infects all sides. There's a reason the political compass isn't just left and right, but includes authoritarianism on both axes. If not for deradicalization efforts, I, and many others like me, would be fighting against our own interests, on the side of Trump, and on the side of authoritarianism and fascism and the alt right, with extremist groups. And yet, because I've done bad in the past, by the more extreme version of canceling that is indeed infecting our movement, I'd be canceled. And any effort I've made, any good I've done, any change I've assisted in, it vanishes. It doesn't matter. I did bad, so I am bad.

That's not a defense of myself, mind. I did what I did, and I'll own it, I don't need to hide behind excuses. What I do need is for people to be able to change. What incentive is there to change when you're going to be bludgeoned no matter what? I won't link the Contrapoints video here, because she's controversial, but she made a good point in her video, Canceling, that there is a certain way canceling turns an accusation into a fact, and an act into a personality trait. People change. And the left is not immune to the same sort of extremist thinking that plagues every other group, and it needs to be addressed.

Canceling is most harmful when leveled against marginalized groups, and that is happening more and more. Sarah Z, Philosophy Tube, Contrapoints, those are just a handful of people in leftist circles who have pointed out that weaponization of canceling is harming US, not bigots. It's true, JK Rowling isn't going to lose her wealth and influence entirely by being canceled. Heck, it's barely going to touch her. But it's not her I'm worried about.

If we can't touch the big names, and many of our efforts hurt our own community, maybe it's time to change course. I'm all for deplatforming bigots, fascists, etc. It works. But it's blind of us to suggest that cancel culture hasn't become a very real and very rabid thing within our own communities, one that isolates us and pushes us more towards extremism.

No matter how we've been hurt, no matter what was done by people, at the end of the day, we can't do what they did back to them. I've avoided chiming in because this is very personal for me. I feel little sympathy for a group of people that, for so long, have made it so my life and my existence is painful and stigmatized. Being trans, being queer, being disabled, I've had to fight for the majority of my life just to be seen as human. And that is so exhausting and painful that all I want to do is lash out. But I have to consider, as we all do, is that effective? Because at the end of the day, my actions do contribute to shaping a future. Hate will always be there. We can stomp out the bigots, with violence or with rhetoric, but they will always come back eventually. It's everyone else that needs to know, we're here, we're human, and we matter. And if I make myself just as angry and hateful and violent as my opponents, it doesn't matter how justified it is. It matters how it looks. One thing I've learned, as I grow, is that justice and revenge are often so far apart, that it's painful, and sometimes, I have to let my personal feelings go and accept that I won't get everything I want.

Nothing will change if I beat on others. As my mom likes to say, there's always a pecking order. And as every group gets rights and status, they turn and peck at others beneath them. The only way to break that cycle is to stop pecking.

[Tolvo]

It's always interesting that the leftists who love to punch down and defend flat out abusive people are the ones complaining about the mythical cancel culture. We are probably getting off topic though at this point. As originally this was supposed to be about alleged dehumanization on the board of conservatives.