Pathfinder - Small Incestuous Group of High Power PCs - Taking Applications

[Kimera]

What does everyone think about an evil campaign? It could be that the PCs come across divine/immense power for their taking, but that they decide to use it for less savory purposes.

Also, what kind of relationship with other PCs are people interested in? The PCs could be people drawn together by destiny. They could be childhood friends. Another idea I'm liking is a small family with some incest mixed in. Maybe they're otherwise opposed to incest but their source of power is encouraging incestuous feelings.

I don't mind a evil flavored campaign. Would monstrous characters be a thing?

A good bond would be useful and love the idea of a tight fit group.

[Tavarokk]

What does everyone think about an evil campaign? It could be that the PCs come across divine/immense power for their taking, but that they decide to use it for less savory purposes.

I don't mind an evil campaign, though we'd need to decide on the shared party agenda before anything else in that case, so that PCs' future interests do not cross.

Also, what kind of relationship with other PCs are people interested in? The PCs could be people drawn together by destiny. They could be childhood friends. Another idea I'm liking is a small family with some incest mixed in.

I'd rather avoid destiny or prophecy kind of plot twists, rarely like how those turn out. PCs being family could work, though.

One thing I'm worried about is casters getting too far ahead of the other PCs. There are a couple of other ways to solve that though. Martials could get a few extra goodies and anti-magic things could be more common, or each PC could be a caster so that no one falls behind. I suppose it's okay if someone wants to play a martial and doesn't mind the casters getting ahead of them.

The difference is not so much of power as of versatility. Martial classes often have devastatingly effective counters to magic (spellcleave barbarian comes to mind), but getting those requires specializing in that sort of thing at the expense of everything else due to how long the required feat and talent chains are. Between gestalt and extra bonus feats (assuming pure martials get proportionately more of those compared to casters), we should be able to side-step this issue.

I think that would be best; start in 8-10 gestalt, mythic 0 and progress slowly in level ups. But to avoid martial vs magic conflict, you rule one side must have caster some kind (or that folks must be happy that magic may start trump things over pure martial gestalt hybrids). With everyone having magical progression then power gap coming later levels would not matter as all have either got arcane, divine or between magical prowess.

Of course partial gap closer is allowing using Path of War material which offers martial classes which martial feats approach near magical levels of influence.

I'm not sure about restricting class selections like that, although, admittedly, it'd be fitting to have one side of gestalt be thematically aligned with the hypothetical source of our power.

Really leery about PoW, on the other hand. The writing style of that one and 3.5 ToB repulses me something fierce.

[Petrus02]

I'd be interested in a game like this as well, though given all the other people already showing interest in the idea of a high-powered Pathfinder game, I'm guessing it'll be a matter of turning in a character sheet and hoping I get chosen when the game itself eventually gets off the ground.  The stipulations provided in the opening post actually sort of remind me of an idea I once had involving combining the E6 variant of D&D or Pathfinder with the Mythic tier rules, with the idea being that the players would start out maxed out at 6th level and Mythic tier 1, and then would gain further bonus feats and Mythic tiers and see if that would allow them to push beyond the bounds of what E6 normally allows players to do.  Adding on gestalt to that would certainly let the players be decently strong, right off the bat.

As an alternative to the isekai idea, we could have a setting where there was an ancient cataclysm that caused that setting's deities to be wiped out, but left behind traces of their divine power that mortals occasionally stumble across and use to become nascent deities themselves.  The players would be a small group that stumbled across one of these leftover pieces of divinity and were all empowered by it at once, and the game would be about their continuing adventures and rise to power from that point onward.

At the very least, I think having the party all have gained some sort of power from the same source would probably be a good way to start things off.  It'll set up a connection between the characters and a reason for them to all know one another already, and the nature of that source could be used to set up all sorts of other plots or throw other little twists the party's way.

Pathfinder's world of golarion actually has something like that. They are called runelords, ancient wizards connected each to one of the wizard schools. wouldn't that be a nice mix between isekai and overlord? Simply reinvent them as original characters so that not everyone has to be a wizard, they awake but find their powers dimished yet enhanced by surviving the cataclysm/stumbling over a second starstone/whatever. just throwing out ideas.

But for my 2 cents:

I'm fine with whatever setting our GM deems fine.
I'd prefer good or neutral characters, simply because experience taught me that the evil side usually gets played even among the group, causing the group to fight and in the worst case kill the game. She we still decide on an evil game then i'm fine with that, and will submit a character that will be still sociable.
I'm fine with bother overlords or Isekai, but I think Overlord and Golarion wouldn't mesh too well. there are several hidden and openly working organisations who would instantly rally at the notion of another whispering tyrant, no matter how well meaning he or she might be.

Relationship with other characters would obviously depend on weather we play good or evil, but i'm certainly interested in a more friendly relationship. Friends, teacher, mentor, or love interest would be my favorite, but i might be convinced to play a loyal servant or favored slave with the right group.

Mechanically speaking, if we go for any E ruleset, I'd prefer E8 or even E16 as many classes have capstones at 8th level and 16th level that makes them worth playing. If 16 is too high, which i can totally understand, then E8 would be my favorite level.

Classwise i've already said: i'd be interested in playing an Wizard/Cleric character, preferably an Elf, i could do either gender depending on group setup and/or GM preference.

[indarkestknight]

Ironically it’s a lot of 3pp stuff that helps with the martial/caster disparity, though the two most popular of them (PoW lifting martials up to the level of casters) and Spheres (locking casters into a progression that’s less quadratic and more linear and therefore more comparable to martials) seem to rub either prospective players or the DM the wrong way.

I’d be alright giving an evil campaign a shot.

If people are concerned about backstabbing but the idea of an evil campaign appeals to the DM, perhaps the power source includes a prohibition against backstabbing others within the group, or some other kind of failsafe.

I’d be fine with either childhood friends or an incestuous family. Another suggestion is perhaps some trauma they all shared together or a common enemy that none of them would be able to withstand alone.

Might be worth looking into how the Drow side of the Throne of Night AP and the Way of the Wicked AP handled keeping the party united.

Leaning towards the idea of a bard/summoner right now myself, but am open to modifying based on the nature of the game and the character creation rules.

[pdragon]

I think they can all be evil and still have a close, loving relationship with one another, it's just everyone else that's free game for betrayals and murder. I like the idea of a shared trauma/tribulation bringing them together. Maybe they were originally all heroes who faced off against a great evil together, but when they defeated them the villain unleashed a power/curse/etc. that imbued them with their incredible power, but at the cost of corrupting them to evil.

That way we could have an evil game, but those who want to steer towards good could have an angle of being conflicted over their new nature and maybe try to convince the others to try and undo their curse. Though regardless of what happens their lingering feelings for each other from when they were heroes keep them strongly connected, thus no betrayals or major infighting and the like.

[Tavarokk]

If people are concerned about backstabbing but the idea of an evil campaign appeals to the DM, perhaps the power source includes a prohibition against backstabbing others within the group, or some other kind of failsafe.

Technically this can be resolved just by not making characters that would be inclined to backstab each other to begin with.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Technically this can be resolved just by not making characters that would be inclined to backstab each other to begin with.

A important point in regards discussing evil campaigns.

[Petrus02]

Technically this can be resolved just by not making characters that would be inclined to backstab each other to begin with.

sorry. just a little bit burned there^^ But on the plus side, i can wholeheartedly agree. So... anyone already a concrete idea for a character? so that we could start discussing possible relationships?

[Tavarokk]

sorry. just a little bit burned there^^ But on the plus side, i can wholeheartedly agree. So... anyone already a concrete idea for a character? so that we could start discussing possible relationships?

Need GM to decide on whether we'll be good or evil (or 'pick either at will', I suppose) and at least rough outline of a premise, since those will influence the character concepts I'll be picking from.

[Angie]

As I'm still interested, I would like to go more good, possibly bringing in a dragon blooded sorcerer unlocking greater and greater power...

[Ryu Wojin]

Technically this can be resolved just by not making characters that would be inclined to backstab each other to begin with.

I mean Stendarr has stated that our characters will have developing connections so yeah. Also, in any kind of evil campaign (unless you're making a campaign designed for allowing backstabbing (please no)), you have to have some reason that the players won't turn on each other. A strong sense of loyalty towards each other or even a very good reason or logic for a chaotic character to conform to. I had a chaotic as hell character who saw the logic and reasoning of her teammates and understood that as long as she assisted them and provided her support, there was no reason for them to turn upon her. So even when she disagreed with their viewpoint or suggested course of action, she still was a reasonable teammate. And thats how it should be regardless. Otherwise you make a character that nobody wants to play with... And that's no fun.

I won't be very concerned about mechanics until players are chosen, and I certainly don't want people to be rushed to push out something mechanically sound.

Also, Everyone keep this in mind. I'll be ultimately waiting to choose a concept based on what the party is and what is required.

[Kunoichi]

What does everyone think about an evil campaign? It could be that the PCs come across divine/immense power for their taking, but that they decide to use it for less savory purposes.

Also, what kind of relationship with other PCs are people interested in? The PCs could be people drawn together by destiny. They could be childhood friends. Another idea I'm liking is a small family with some incest mixed in. Maybe they're otherwise opposed to incest but their source of power is encouraging incestuous feelings.

I'm fine with either a good or evil group of characters.  If evil winds up being chosen, I'll be sure to come up with a character concept that won't be inclined to betray the rest of the group.  As for the relationship between the party members, the incestuous family could certainly be interesting.  My most immediate thought along those lines are to make it about a father and daughter, or maybe a mother and her child/two children.  Though it would have to be a pretty interesting family if they're already adventuring together when the game starts.

If people are interested they can talk about what gender/sex/sexuality they're interested in, but it can wait until we have a stronger idea of where the story is going to go.

I can pretty much play anything on this front, though I will admit that I tend to favor playing female and futanari characters over male characters.  I'm definitely fine with any option for partners, though.

[Kimera]

Like the idea of a close family.

Already have a loose idea for what I want to make, though it is flexible enough to adapt to any of the already suggested options.

[Chulanowa]

I... have reservations about a specifically evil campaign, at least on E. My preference would be for a game that is either alignment-neutral and more shades of grey, able to fit in a variety of alignments... or that just throws alignment out entirely (Or, at least for the player characters and their concerns, a demon is always gonna be evil, and such)

For power levels, I'd second the level 10 gestalt thing; offer some ridiculously large point buy, or give a stat array like 18, 17, 15, 14, 14, 13, etc.
I've not heard amazing things about Mythic, but as I've never used it, I'd be up for a try.
A list of "generic feats" that can be taken for free at like, levels 1, 4, 7, 10, etc would be something. Stuff like weapon / skill / spell focus, toughness, iron will, power attack, weapon finesse, you know, all those noxious little "feat tax / making up 3.5's bad design" feats that everyone ends up taking anyway 
Importing 5E's inspiration system might be another angle.

I wouldn't worry too hard about the differential between spellcasters and noncasters; as pointed out, gestalt can iron that out, and level 10-ish isn't really overpowering for spellcasters. Maybe toss in the combat stamina system from Unchained for free, for people with no casting classes, leave it as a feat for others? IDK.

Playing in Golarion is fine to me - mostly because i already know the setting pretty well and it's easy as pie to build a character into 

[Waldham]

It seems worthwhile.

Do you know Solo Leveling, a korean novel ?

[Petrus02]

rereading the thread, i think we need clarification on the following from Stendarr:

1. Alignment. For there are some (me included) who say character would wildly vary by being good or evil

2. Story direction. You ruled Overlord out, does that mean you are bend on making an isekai sort of story? I've submitted the idea of reinventing the runelords, but that one didn't get much attention, so i think thats out too, anything i've missed?

3. Character relationships. You said you liked the idea of a family. Shall we work on a family then, or would you like something else to be worked on? I mean, discussion is fine and all that, but in the end i'd still like you as our GM to make the decision because when you lose interest because things went into a direction you didn't want then the game is screwed. I think most were fine with a family (correct me if i am wrong), so that would work..

[Zaer Darkwail]

Just follow Petrus example;

1) I am fine playing in evil or good aligned party, preference on evil side but fine on either.

2) I would be okay in playing as reincarnated runelords who rebirth to modern era in Golarion and need figure things out, albeit runelords most part were surely corrupt and evil lot.

3) Fine playing incestuous family (or normal family which thanks corruption turn incestuous or simply close bonded family members otherwise).

[Stendarr]

Evil PCs can be entirely willing to work with others. Being evil is not the same thing as being a traitor, being sneaky, or hating everyone. If we decide to do evil PCs, I'm going to make sure that there will be no actual conflict between characters, and especially not players.

I want to reiterate that one theme I'm going to stick to. The PCs are definitely going to be a small, tight-knit group. I'm particularly liking the idea of a family.

If there's enough support for the idea I'm going to say that we're definitely going to have PCs with familial relations. So let me know what you think about that.

I don't mind a evil flavored campaign. Would monstrous characters be a thing?

A good bond would be useful and love the idea of a tight fit group.

I'm considering the idea of monstrous PCs. I think if that ever does come through it will be in the form of gained power instead of something during character generation.

The difference is not so much of power as of versatility. Martial classes often have devastatingly effective counters to magic (spellcleave barbarian comes to mind), but getting those requires specializing in that sort of thing at the expense of everything else due to how long the required feat and talent chains are. Between gestalt and extra bonus feats (assuming pure martials get proportionately more of those compared to casters), we should be able to side-step this issue.

I'm not sure about restricting class selections like that, although, admittedly, it'd be fitting to have one side of gestalt be thematically aligned with the hypothetical source of our power.

Really leery about PoW, on the other hand. The writing style of that one and 3.5 ToB repulses me something fierce.

If every challenge was straight combat (which would be boring), then martials would fare fine, but a caster's versatility helps them overcome a much broader scope of problems. You're probably wise in saying that restricting classes may not be the best idea. I'm going to take the problem into consideration when we move into class selection, but I don't think I'll impose any strict rules.

I'm also not really into PoW; as well as not being read up on it.

I... have reservations about a specifically evil campaign, at least on E. My preference would be for a game that is either alignment-neutral and more shades of grey, able to fit in a variety of alignments... or that just throws alignment out entirely (Or, at least for the player characters and their concerns, a demon is always gonna be evil, and such)

For power levels, I'd second the level 10 gestalt thing; offer some ridiculously large point buy, or give a stat array like 18, 17, 15, 14, 14, 13, etc.
I've not heard amazing things about Mythic, but as I've never used it, I'd be up for a try.
A list of "generic feats" that can be taken for free at like, levels 1, 4, 7, 10, etc would be something. Stuff like weapon / skill / spell focus, toughness, iron will, power attack, weapon finesse, you know, all those noxious little "feat tax / making up 3.5's bad design" feats that everyone ends up taking anyway 
Importing 5E's inspiration system might be another angle.

I wouldn't worry too hard about the differential between spellcasters and noncasters; as pointed out, gestalt can iron that out, and level 10-ish isn't really overpowering for spellcasters. Maybe toss in the combat stamina system from Unchained for free, for people with no casting classes, leave it as a feat for others? IDK.

Playing in Golarion is fine to me - mostly because i already know the setting pretty well and it's easy as pie to build a character into 

A game that's not strictly "evil" but morally ambiguous leaning towards immoral is good too.

I'm thinking now that I'm going with level 8 start with a not too quickly paced level progression. In any case, I'm going to do milestone-based level-ups. I quite dislike exp.

One 3pp thing I actually do kinda like is The Elephant in the Room: Feat Taxes in Pathfinder. It tends to give martials a bit of a boost in a way that can let them be more versatile too.

rereading the thread, i think we need clarification on the following from Stendarr:

1. Alignment. For there are some (me included) who say character would wildly vary by being good or evil

2. Story direction. You ruled Overlord out, does that mean you are bend on making an isekai sort of story? I've submitted the idea of reinventing the runelords, but that one didn't get much attention, so i think thats out too, anything i've missed?

3. Character relationships. You said you liked the idea of a family. Shall we work on a family then, or would you like something else to be worked on? I mean, discussion is fine and all that, but in the end i'd still like you as our GM to make the decision because when you lose interest because things went into a direction you didn't want then the game is screwed. I think most were fine with a family (correct me if i am wrong), so that would work..

I'm definitely not going to run a game I don't want to run.

I'm going narrow it down to 3 overall story ideas. I'm going to write up a short pitch for each of them and see what people prefer. I'll do that probably tonight.

Unless a few people speak up now they're all going to involve a family/incest of some sort.

[Chulanowa]

Unless a few people speak up now they're all going to involve a family/incest of some sort.

I've not got any issue with it, save for one thing - I'm personally fond of having a variety of races, and if everyone's related, that can get a little difficult  I suppose maybe we all got hit with some True Polymorphs or Reincarnate spells or something along those lines, that could work...

Or could do it so that everyone is half-human half-siblings and dad is one of those famous bards who stuck it in whatever seemed slippery enough.

Push come to shove (eyyyyy) I've got a few things that could still work with "everyone's family"

[Angie]

I've not got any issue with it, save for one thing - I'm personally fond of having a variety of races, and if everyone's related, that can get a little difficult  I suppose maybe we all got hit with some True Polymorphs or Reincarnate spells or something along those lines, that could work...

Or could do it so that everyone is half-human half-siblings and dad is one of those famous bards who stuck it in whatever seemed slippery enough.

Push come to shove (eyyyyy) I've got a few things that could still work with "everyone's family"

Hey, whatever gave us our Mythic powers might have shapeshifted us too. Who knows what can happen?

[Stendarr]

Here are three pitches. I'm going to post them in my first post as well. Tell me how you rate them in order! We're going to end up playing one of these. There is still some space for changing smaller details about them.



A family, descendants of a bloodline of heroes that fight side by side with their blood kin, are leading a campaign against a great lich. After a significant struggle, the family of heroes and their followers finally make their way to the lich's lair. While the supporting army holds off the lich's forces, the family heads into the lair's depths alone, to confront the lich once and for all.

After narrowly defeating the lich and destroying his phylactery a curious essence pours from the destroyed vessel. The source of the lich's power finds its way into the heroes. The feel invigorated by the immense power, but it is accompanied by other strange feelings. Slowly the group begins to reconsider what is right and wrong. They begin to entertain morals and ideals that are increasingly gray. Before they have the chance to emerge from the lich's lair and rejoin their company they decide that the companies goals no longer align with their own. Blessed now with even greater power than before they are faced with a group designed specifically to destroy the power that infests them.



Stavian III, ruler of Taldor has died. Taldor is an agnatic primogeniture, and Stavian is without living male relatives. His ambitious daughter and her supporters have made a claim for the throne, but not all support their action against Taldane tradition. The country is plunged into a great civil war. To make matters worse, Qadira, a hostile bordering nation, is taking the opportunity to attack Taldor. The nation is ravaged and its resources are being exploited to depletion. Many of the nation's families lose their homes and loved ones.

A mother, widowed by the war, and her child(ren) are struggling to survive. Their home has recently been destroyed. They've taken to scavenging for survival. Finding themselves in dire straits, the family had decided to scavenge the battlefield of a great battle the heard being waged the previous night. Luckily for them, the battle proved to be extremely lethal. If any participants lived to flee they did so hurriedly. While looting, one member of the family came across a particular object. They recognized it as a powerful artifact that was the subject of plenty of folklore. Before they even fully understood what they had found, the artifact's power had seeped into them and gave them power they had only ever dreamed of. With their power, they set out to restore their beloved nation and find peace for its people.



Once upon a time, in the sky above a modest family farm, there is a magnificent sight. One that manages impossible brilliance, like that of a hundred stars, but that does not demand the aversion of gaze. By the simple act of basking in its glory, the modest farmers are imparted with the power of a dying deity. The power does not manifest all at once but over the following year, the blessed family begins noticing its effects. At first, the deific power presented itself only as a bountiful harvest. As time progressed, so too did the power's manifestation. Soon great luck began to bless the family in all things, and eventually, they each began to display signs of great potential.

As the family began taking advantage of their blessing, they attracted the attention of a bitter being. This powerful being was responsible for slaying the goddess that spilled her power that fateful night. The being had hoped to harvest the power for himself, but, with her dying breath, the goddess released her power to the mortals below. Now that the slayer is beginning to pinpoint where the goddess power ended up, the family has begun running into the being's agents.

[Tavarokk]

Would the first include some form of curse or maybe undead template being forced on the PCs? Otherwise I'm not seeing what stops them from just playing along, "peacefully retiring" and doing whatever they want a few months later.

The second needs fine tuning. Who fought whom, why there were no survivors or, if there were any, why they didn't reclaim the relic, what the relic was, why it affected the scavengers, but not whoever was carrying it, that sort of thing - under the circumstances, these nuances will both determine how believable such a turn of events is and have far-reaching consequences on the plot. Will there be further details if it's chosen or will it be up to players?

Third doesn't exactly match the intended chargen parameters - under that premise a lot of noteworthy events are liable to happen back when the PCs were lvl 2-3 Commoners or what have you, skipping way ahead to when they've grown into power can be considered missing out.

I'm a little surprised you haven't gone for the obvious "party of adventuers tracks down a primordial site and pokes something that was lying dormant there".

[Petrus02]

I agree and disagree at the same time with tavarokk. But lets start with making a list first, i'll explain thereafter.

1Family fighting a Lich
2Civil war scavangers
3Farmers Dreams come true

I like the Lich story best, for there is no need to further explain why the characters are powerfull. I also like the dynamic. Going from a normal family fighting together to maybe a depraved, incestous group? I love it. They don't even need to become true evil, but it could certainly be, and the group would still hold for family reasons. Just like.

On the second story, i'm a bit sad that the father wouldn't be playable, but i can see where this is coming from. And it would give the characters a strong incentive to intervene in the war. Its fine for me, although i do agree that the story would obviously need more content to be ironed out later as a basic premisse more than enough, but lacking for a background for a full story. The common goal would mean an additional bond for the characters which i like, but i do see some problems too. It would be battlefields instead of just battles, and pathfinder lends itself incredibly poorly for those. Wrath of the righeous has shown that in i think it was the second adventure path. You could do a workaround with using the Troop template, but it would still be a hassle. Additionally, theres a distinct lack of longterm goal. restoring peace to a formerly peaceful nation should be an easy task for gestalt mythic heroes. And there would propably no mythic foes at all. I mean, even the propably strongest enemy in the entire area, the demon Treerazer would be a CR 25 foe, but not mythic. I'd also like to know how the characters got their class levels here. I mean, if its mother and children, they are quite unlikely to be mages, paladins or fighters, as they would have been drawn into the fight long ago, especially at level 8 where they would be fomidable foes in their own right.  Third story at least explains that years pass, but a civil war with an ongoing invasion taking years? there would be thousands of dead, more then would propably live in the entire area.

Third story is just very... vague. could work, but i dunno, i'd like a little bit more concrete information.

[Tavarokk]

I'd also like to know how the characters got their class levels here. I mean, if its mother and children, they are quite unlikely to be mages, paladins or fighters, as they would have been drawn into the fight long ago, especially at level 8 where they would be fomidable foes in their own right. 

That's more of an issue for the third where the PCs explicitly used to be farmers. For the second, it narrows down the backgrounds considerably, but there's still a good selection of reclusive/frontier types that can be sufficiently removed from the kingdom's power structure to stay out of succession struggles while being plausibly dangerous on the personal level, if not so much that an army marching over their home won't displace them. Woodsmen (rangers and druids alike), witches, reclusive wizards, clerics and monks whose borderland communities got razed, etc.

[Petrus02]

well, thats why the third story would be my least favorite.  it has the weaknesses of the second, but worse. I'd still play it if thats what everyone wants, but its not the story of choice for me.