Brexit

[Silk]

The problem is that the idea of the second referendum is abhorrent to a lot of people. Even to a lot of people who voted remain because it would be a slap in the face in the democratic process. Flawed information or no (and both sides were guilty of mis-information) In the usual Satirical British way a lot of people are saying. "Sure let's have a second referendum, if it votes remain this time, we'll ask for a third referendum so we can have a best of 3" Where will it end, when did democracy become "Keep trying until we get the answer we want from the population"

Personally I voted leave, not just because of what the EU is currently, (But particularly the idea of a EU army, the flaws of the globalist model which has now lead to the situation in France, Article 11/13 of the internet censorship bill among others) But the Eurocrats on multiple occasions brazenly keep talking about granting themselves more and more powers over the nation states, I feel the UK should get out while it can. Because when people like that keep pushing for more power over you.

Yes it will be a economic benefit and disruptions, but most people who voted leave were under no delusion that leaving the EU and with it the custom union will have economic backlash, but the thing is that they're ok with that. Because as far as they're concerned, things have gotten regularly worse for them inside the EU anyway. So it's doomed if we stay or doomed if we leave. But then I also think most of the politicians in the UK need to be booted from their positions anyhow, they're in it for themselves not the people.

As it stands, in my honest opinion, I'd much rather take a hard Brexit than Mays deal. Yes the situation will be bad for a while, but it won't be bad forever. There will be disruptions, but disruptions come to an end. Because at this point I don't trust either Conservatives or Labor to be able to negotiate their way out of a wet paper bag, I would love for there to be a divorce agreement don't get me wrong. But neither Leave or Remain really trust our current list of politicians to do the job.

[Chantarelle]

Well said. :) Totally agree.

[Vekseid]

Demagogues yearn for times of hardship, for they cannot otherwise truly thrive.

[Eye of Horus]

Personally I voted leave, not just because of what the EU is currently, (But particularly the idea of a EU army, the flaws of the globalist model which has now lead to the situation in France, Article 11/13 of the internet censorship bill among others) But the Eurocrats on multiple occasions brazenly keep talking about granting themselves more and more powers over the nation states, I feel the UK should get out while it can. Because when people like that keep pushing for more power over you.

I won't spall off into which of Britain's problems are and aren't the EU's fault, because your next point hits the nail on the head:

Yes it will be a economic benefit and disruptions, but most people who voted leave were under no delusion that leaving the EU and with it the custom union will have economic backlash, but the thing is that they're ok with that. Because as far as they're concerned, things have gotten regularly worse for them inside the EU anyway. So it's doomed if we stay or doomed if we leave. But then I also think most of the politicians in the UK need to be booted from their positions anyhow, they're in it for themselves not the people.

People want their own laws, made in their own country, and to feel like they themselves matter to the lawmakers. And really, that's an idea everyone should be able to get behind. Which is why I'm angry about Brexit.

Sure, I'm angry at the economic side of things - my life is likely to get harder, my family's lives are likely to get harder, my girlfriend is already having trouble finding work because of Brexit's effects on the construction industry. But the thing that really pisses me off is that Brexit under the current government won't fix the democratic deficit in our country, and won't give the Leavers the power they want and deserve.

The neglected parts of the UK? The Tories will continue funnelling all the money into London, as they have for the last 8 years. Some councils have seen their budgets literally halved.

Control of our borders? The Tories have not and will not curb immigration, because their pro-business operating model relies on an availability of cheap labour. They have shown no interest in channelling extra money into regions with high immigration to try and help strained services.

Trade deals? The Tories value what's best for the billionaires who bankroll their party, not what will let Britain flourish. This has been their guiding logic since the beginning and won't change after Brexit.

The NHS? Every MP who has written about turning the NHS into a (categorically less effective) privatised system is either Tory or UKIP. For all their talk of record funding, the Tories have run almost every single NHS trust from surplus into debt since they came to power. They won't change that now.

Take back control from the establishment? The Tories never will, because as mentioned above, it's these people who bankroll their party. They'll gladly keep on handing them tax cuts in return for money and media support.

More democracy? If the negotiations of the last two years are any indication, the current government would rather force through their agenda against the wishes of their own party, never mind the rest of the House of Commons or the British people. It goes without saying that the Tories have no plans to democratise the House of Lords, and are trying to shrink the number of MPs to make Parliament even less representative of its people.

In short, if any of the objectives of Leave voters are to be achieved, in or out of the EU, the Tories need to go.

All of these problems have been festering since the 80s, under the Tories, New Labour (aka Diet Tories), and now the Tories again. No wonder Leavers feel like the political class are in it for themselves and not the people. While my own research has led me to believe that the EU is not the cause of these problems, I am as pissed off as the Leavers that we have gotten to where we are. If Labour were still cut from the same neoliberal cloth as the Tories, as they were under Blair, we'd truly be screwed. As it is, Corbyn has managed to drag the party back towards the traditional centre-left, with some ideas that - in the EU or out of it - actually stand a chance of giving British people back some of the power, opportunity and security they are rightly demanding.

[Mechelle]

I had a conversation with a friend last night who had very similar points to Eye of Horus.  I agreed with most points, apart from the faith in Jeremy Corbyn. His general incompetence, as shown by his inability to lay a telling blow on this awful government and his inability to suppress the bullying carried out by his cultlike followers, does not impress me. Also, at 69, he is of a generation where left-wingers tend to be anti-European, and I really don't think his politics have evolved for years. There are other people in the Labour Party who could do so much better.

There have been a couple of embarrassing news items for two of the few prominent businessmen who support Brexit.
James Dyson, of Dyson vacuum cleaner fame, is relocating his head office to Singapore. He says it's nothing to do with Brexit, but it's bad timing from a company who the Leave EU campaign said would invest in a Britain outside the EU.
Tim Martin, of the JD Wetherspoons pub group, has given a profit warning ahead of Brexit; again, he has said it's not connected to Brexit, but due to increased labour costs and other expenses. I suggest the opportunity to reduce labour costs and workers' rights in general may be one of the main attractions of Brexit for people like him.

[SidheLady]

While I agree (almost totally) with eye of horus, I think it's an important first step, one which if we dont take, we cannot begin to fix the democracy in this country. Then, we need a shakeup of both of the major parties.

I currently consider both the Conservatives and Labour to be unelectable messes I dont want in power at the moment, although for different reasons.

[Thera Regina]

Brexit makes my head hurt.

[Eye of Horus]

I currently consider both the Conservatives and Labour to be unelectable messes I dont want in power at the moment, although for different reasons.

What would you say the two main parties are lacking at the moment?

I agreed with most points, apart from the faith in Jeremy Corbyn. His general incompetence, as shown by his inability to lay a telling blow on this awful government

I would respectfully disagree, depending on what exactly you mean by “a telling blow”. Labour has voted against the government on all of its “awful” legislation, and even forced the defeat or amendment of some of it. This would have been much less likely had Corbyn’s superior manifesto not stripped May of her majority in the 2017 election, and indeed the Conservatives’ losses in that election would have been far heavier if they hadn’t benefitted from the collapse of UKIP (at the expense of basically becoming UKIP, which has since made their party even less representative of the average voter).

If you are referring specifically to Brexit - which is reasonable, since we’re in the Brexit thread - then yes, Corbyn’s recent actions have been frustrating. The current Labour policy (negotiate a softer Brexit with “a” customs union) isn’t actually possible without accepting free movement or else falling foul of the same border issues as May’s deal. Nevertheless, I wouldn’t object to them being given a shot at creating some kind of better result. Especially when their other policies actually target the real causes of division in the UK (e.g. housebuilding, an end to austerity for the NHS and local services, cheaper high education, and extra money for councils squeezed by high immigration). I think that the single most damaging thing Brexit has done is suck time, money and attention away from the societal changes that both Leavers and Remainers could find some common ground on.

The other bone of contention is of course Labour’s reticence to support a 2nd vote (though they continue to keep it on the table as a kind of “last resort”). This won’t disappear with Corbyn, because it is due to the impossible bind of Labour’s conflicting bases. On the one hand you have the progressives who voted for Remain, and on the other you have the “traditional” Labour voters who are mostly working class, small-c conservative and voted for Leave. The glue holding these two sides together is the agreement on grassroots issues like the NHS, nationalising the trains (don’t believe anyone who tells you the EU prevents this, by the way, because Germany did it) and bringing down the sky-high cost of housing. While I, a “progressive”, wouldn’t abandon Labour over Brexit - mainly because, by and large, it’s a Tory-created mess - I would if they went back to the economic policies that have been slowly killing Britain for the last 40 years. And for the other side, while Leavers might accept a softer Brexit if Labour made a visible improvement to their communities, the polls (sadly) seem to show that calling for a 2nd referendum would be an utter vote loser.

The SNP, who have a solid Remain majority in Scotland, and the Lib Dems, who have nothing to lose, can back a Remainer-appealing 2nd vote without consequence. But Labour are wary of playing their most divisive card with another election still moderately possible this year.

Now of course the Tories have the same problem: their base of comfortable citizen and business voters are mostly for Remain, since to them the economic disruption of Brexit is a bigger threat to them than sovereignty. But on the other hand there are the Brexit voters they have scooped up from UKIP (who comprise both the stereotypical “alt-right” and the same working class voters that Labour is trying to hold onto), and the super-rich vulture capitalists who see Brexit as a chance to buy up failing UK assets on the cheap. That these conflicting archetypes are almost exactly replicated within the various Tory MPs themselves is a big reason why the government has been paralysed since 2016.

and his inability to suppress the bullying carried out by his cultlike followers

Momentum’s harassment of MPs, while not totally fabricated, is regularly blown out of proportion. To take two extreme examples, the coverage of bricks being thrown through Labour MPs’ windows turned out to be totally baseless, and a number of twitter accounts posting anti-Semitic messages were found to be fake. I would also suggest that MPs complaining about being lobbied by an angry grassroots organisation (as opposed to the civilised backroom deals they are presumably used to) need to remember that bullying is the harassment of the powerless by the powerful, and not the other way around.

It also bears mentioning that I can find no news articles of a Momentum supporter being arrested for a serious crime. Contrast this with at least two far-right terrorists who have murdered one MP (Jo Cox) and driven a van into a mosque in the explicit attempt to kill another (Jeremy Corbyn).

Also, at 69, he is of a generation where left-wingers tend to be anti-European, and I really don't think his politics have evolved for years. There are other people in the Labour Party who could do so much better.

Corbyn’s view of the EU has been, for want of a better word, nuanced; in that he supported remaining in it but recognised some of its failings that should ideally be changed. Hence his oft-cited quote of rating his support of the EU “7 out of 10”. I suppose you could make the argument that simple black and white is disingenuous but the more effective way to do politics.

The Mirror’s fact check also shows that he was hardly inactive during the referendum campaign, although as you might expect his total of 122 mentions in the media was behind that of MPs associated with the ruling party’s In and Out campaigns.

You do make a good point about his age - while he could still lead an election this year or next, if by some miracle the government survives until 2022 then Labour may well need a new leader. I am genuinely unsure of who that could be. John McDonnell shares Corbyn’s views but isn’t as personable; Diane Abbott is (through largely no fault of her own) widely hated; most of the other social democrats are too young or too old to lead. While I would always hedge my bets with a Labour government over a Conservative one, I think it would be an absolute tragedy for Labour to slide back into being a centre-right party masquerading as a centre-left one. There are plenty of “centrist” former Blairite MPs who still want to see this happen.

Incidentally, the question of a successor is another parallel between Labour and the Tories: May genuinely is a terrible leader (authoritarian, intransigent, and mercurial with her promises) but no-one wants her job until after the Brexit shit-storm is over.

There have been a couple of embarrassing news items for two of the few prominent businessmen who support Brexit.

An excellent example of why we should lend less weight to what people say on Brexit (or anything else, really) and more to what they actually do.

Phew, that was a long post! Well done if you made it this far. In today’s news, even the Queen is telling the government that someone needs to budge.

[Lilias]

I'm with Neil.

https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/1085668256654999553

[Mechelle]

At this late hour, I can't give Eye of Horus's well thought out post the attention it deserves.

In short, I still have my doubts about Jeremy Corbyn, but I must say  some of the biggest idiots are on the Conservative side. Jacob Rees-Mogg had been calling for the Queen to prorogue (suspend) Parliament, but, when she did give a subtle message, as Eye of Horus mentioned, that people should come together, he has now said that the government must have influenced her.

A much less well-known character is Conservative MP Mark Francois, who was ranting about his father being a D-Day veteran today. I don't think what your parents did 80-odd years ago should form modern political positions, but, if like him, you do, you would have to square that with the fact that his mother was an Italian immigrant and her family would have been on the other side, or at least their government was.

It's a great example of how some Brexiters look back to the past.


[  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/25/rees-mogg-brexit-emergency[/URL]

[Mechelle]

Apologies for replying to myself, and also for not knowing how to embed a YouTube video, but, on a light-hearted note, I did enjoy Jacob Rees-Mogg's version of Pulp's "Common People", as envisaged by Joe.co.uk.

As always, Rees-Mogg took it in good spirit, with his only complaint being that a pedant would prefer "all right" to "alright" at the end of the song.

[Color]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V3TT1VE8Jq0[/color]

[ElvenKitten]

Hi I'm Elvenkitten and I voted leave.

What annoys me about the whole thing was that both sides were dishonest about what Brexit would mean for the country. The worst is the doom and gloom from the "Remoaners" keep predicting. The way the market works is that this turns out to be a self fulfilling prophecy. I have a lot of friends who voted remain and I respect their choice, but when people hear I voted leave I get cries of "racist" and "Fascist." Which actually upsets me an a very deep level.

[Lilias]

[Mechelle]

Hi I'm Elvenkitten and I voted leave.

What annoys me about the whole thing was that both sides were dishonest about what Brexit would mean for the country. The worst is the doom and gloom from the "Remoaners" keep predicting. The way the market works is that this turns out to be a self fulfilling prophecy. I have a lot of friends who voted remain and I respect their choice, but when people hear I voted leave I get cries of "racist" and "Fascist." Which actually upsets me an a very deep level.

Hello, Elvenkitten.

I voted remain. I do take your point about the lies in the campaign, but I think there is a difference between some remainers giving exaggerated warnings about how bad Brexit would be, as it part of politics to criticise your opponents, and the lies of the Brexiteers (remember that bus) about what they would achieve, before immediately reneging on those promises upon winning that vote by such a narrow margin.

I am sure it's not nice to be called a racist or a fascist when you are not, and you have my sympathy. However, it's also not nice to be called a "traitor" if you are a remainer by the right-wing press, especially when the Leave campaign's shadowy links to Russia are still not properly investigated by the government.

I do think that referendum was a mistake, as a simple question which required a complicated answer in truth has led to such division and paralysed the government.

[Humble Scribe]

I'm part of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, and have the badge to prove it. But I grew up in the West Midlands, and I know how shit things are there at the moment. And the tragedy, as Mechelle says, is that none of this will fix any of that, it will just make it worse, especially under this, the worst shower of a government I can recall in my lifetime (and I'm 52 and remember Callaghan and The Winter of Discontent, and the power cuts of the Heath government).

I voted Remain, but I have no desire to see the referendum run again, or any option other than leaving the EU, as I respect the democratic will of the people as expressed in the Referendum. That's part and parcel of living in a democracy.

BUT

What I resent is the way that the process of leaving has been hijacked by the right wing of the Tory party. This was always a Conservative internal psychodrama at heart, and watching them move the goalposts over the last two years has been so frustrating that I'm livid with rage.
Here, for those with short memories, is what they said during the referendum:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY

Norway option was good back then. But now we're told that the only option for Brexit is one that essentially destroys our relationship with Europe. FUCK THAT SHIT.
Not only does it deny the narrowness of the vote (I won't go into the ins and outs of the illegalities as regards the referendum, because I believe it was marginal on the result, but still, a 3% margin of victory is not a mandate to ignore the Will of the Other Half of the People), it denies what they actually told us we were voting on.
I don't agree about much with Corbyn, but his option of remaining in the Customs Union actually seems like a reasonable compromise. The fact that May apparently can't do that because she's held hostage by her loony fringe is enough to drive me to the barricades.

[Mechelle]

Some very good points there, Humble Scribe.

I can certainly see why you would not want a second referendum, considering the ill feeling it would be bound to create.

Increasingly, I feel drawn towards accepting May's deal rather than face the catastrophe of a no deal Brexit (and I am sure that is her plan)

However, it is all too clear that so much of this is to appease the right of the Conservative party

[Mechelle]

Some very good points there, Humble Scribe.

I can certainly see why you would not want a second referendum, considering the ill feeling it would be bound to create.

Increasingly, I feel drawn towards accepting May's deal rather than face the catastrophe of a no deal Brexit (and I am sure that is her plan)

However, it is all too clear that so much of this, going back to the decisionto call a referendum, is to appease the right of the Conservative party

[Humble Scribe]

Some very good points there, Humble Scribe.

I can certainly see why you would not want a second referendum, considering the ill feeling it would be bound to create.

Increasingly, I feel drawn towards accepting May's deal rather than face the catastrophe of a no deal Brexit (and I am sure that is her plan)

However, it is all too clear that so much of this is to appease the right of the Conservative party

The thing about the May 'deal' is that it is only a Withdrawl Agreement. It actually leaves the meat of our future relationship with the EU very open, and something to be negotiated over the next couple of years, and during that time we will actually still operate under EU rules. The main exception is the backstop. That basically says that if we can't agree anything we end up still part of the Customs Union. That seems OK to me, but for the Brexit Ultras it's apparently Total Surrender. Except they still have no idea how to square the Good Friday Agreement with our new EU relationship even after 2.5 years. So fuck them all.

[gaggedLouise]

I get your points, Humble Scribe, but the bottom line (to me) seems to be that the referendum should not have been pledged to be decisive all by itself: it would have been better if it had been consultative - a way of opening up the debate on something politicians would normally have refused to discuss, and to give an idea of what the opinions among the people were like, and how strong they were. Especially because it was clear early on in the campaign that it could turn out with a fairly small margin.

Maybe I'm being Scandinavian here, but it sounds loopy to me to make a totally unconditional vow in advance that the result of a referendum in a complex question *must* be carried out, even if it turns out that it cannot be done without causing chaos, disruption and a long economic downturn - and also, that the margin between the two alternatives was just 2-3%. And it was plain, soon after the referendum, atht many of those who had voted Leave had not really understood what a hard Brexit would really mean in terms of economy, their own freedom to travel easily across Europe, trade deals and so on. That aspect of the whole issue had been shucked aside, because the referendum swung to be about immigration, muslims and about British (or really, English) identity.

Also, the whole thing had become too entangled in party tactics from the beginning. Even Cameron's decision to have the poll set up was out of a wish to neutralize a difficult set of questions in the party, difficult for him personally, and after the referendum it has continued to get embrolied in party tactics and internal party plotting. I frankly think it's a disgrace, even if I recognize there was some legitimate criticism of the way the EU works, on the Brexit side.

[Humble Scribe]

I sort of sympathise with that view, Louise. But in a democracy, you don't tell people that they were wrong to vote the way that they did. They did, and if you agreed before the vote to respect the results of it, then that's the result and it is what it is. I agree that referenda are a flawed means of gauging public opinion, but you can make much the same arguments about representative democracy in all of its forms. You are Swedish, and joined the EU on a 52-48 referendum result. It seems fair that we can leave the EU on the same margin, even though I personally think it's a stupid idea. Of course party politics is involved, but that is true of any issue of importance. You are preaching to the converted, in that I am a die-hard Remainer, but I recognise the right of the leavers to have their way. What I disagree with is the current presumption that we have to have the hardest form of Brexit available, otherwise the vote was invalid. That wasn't what was voted on, and to pretend that it is is to be dishonest.

[Eye of Horus]

I find myself in a similar camp to Humble Scribe, in that I see no benefit of Brexit in terms of economics (well documented) or sovereignty (our international influence is diminished, leaving us more susceptible to pressure from other countries; and domestically our governing party is corrupt and authoritarian, with no interest in serving Britain as a whole - see my post near the top of the page) but at the same time it would set a bad precedent to revoke Brexit without a democratic mandate to do so, i.e. another referendum or an election manifesto specifically advocating Remain.

Since both of those options are politically unpalatable to the big parties (the Tories know they would suffer even worse than last time in another election; Labour don’t want to divide their base with another referendum), the options we have left are Tory Hard Brexit (bad economically and bad for sovereignty, as discussed above) and Labour Compromise Brexit (less bad economically, but also bad for sovereignty as Britain becomes an EU “rule taker” - the fact that these rules often benefit us more than our domestic ones is neither here nor there).

But I suppose the big news story today is that eight centre-right MPs from the Labour party and three from the Tory party have splintered off to set up what they call the “Independent Group”. Exactly what they plan to achieve I don’t know, because other than being generally pro-Remain they haven’t released any statements of policy, won’t set out their stalls for by-elections (probably because they know they’ll lose - voting nowadays is more about party and policy than personality), and have not yet disclosed their funding sources (though my money is on old-guard Blairite neoliberals like Lord Sainsbury). So far we have only the people themselves to go on:

Chuka Umunna - The definition of a career politician, changing his views to fit the flavour of the month, but can generally be categorised as a New Labour Blairite. Likely leaving because the centre-right Blairites have lost power in Labour (and won’t accept that their brand of “centrist” neoliberal politics is deader than disco across Britain and most of Europe) and because Corbyn continues to hesitate on a second referendum.

Chris Leslie - One of the main architects of Labour’s 2015 manifesto, which was derided as being just “Diet Tory” or “Austery Lite”, and failed hard at the election. Regularly criticised Corbyn for being too left wing, and occasionally voted with the Tories against his own party. Was never going to be at home in Corbyn’s new centre-left Labour, and was in fact slapped with a no-confidence vote by his constituency party members last September. Leads me to conclude that he is jumping ship before he gets pushed.

Gavin Shuker - Another “centrist” who spent more time attacking Corbyn than trying to get his party elected, and hence also received a no-confidence vote from his constituency. Noted opponent of gay rights.

Luciana Berger - The one who elicits the most sympathy, given that she is a Jewish MP who has genuinely received anti-Semitic abuse. The people jailed for sending her death threats were from the alt right, not the left; however, the people tabling a no-confidence motion against her also used some anti-Semitic language, which the Labour leadership quite rightly condemned.

Angela Smith - Yet another old-guard Blairite who somewhat infamously argued against Labour’s 2017 manifesto pledge to nationalise water companies (as is already the case in Scotland and Northern Ireland) after receiving money and football tickets from private water lobbyists. Though perhaps more infamous is her shockingly poor choice of words about people of colour at an interview mere hours after resigning. Perhaps the only thing more shocking was that no-one on the panel reacted apart from Ash Sarkar (the one POC in the room).

Anna Soubry - A centre-right Tory who has spoken often against Hard Brexit (though not always voted against it). Presumably joining to campaign for a second referendum.

Heidi Allen - A hard-right Tory with a horrible voting record on both economic and social issues. Doesn’t have my trust whether standing as a Conservative or an independent.

More information on the others (Ann Coffey, Mike Gapes, Sarah Wollaston) when I can find it. From the Labour side, there is a notable trend of being big government Blairites who resent local democracy and actually being accountable to their constituency party members. It is also worth noting that all of them have expended more effort in attacking Corbyn in the last two years than opposing May (for all his voting rebellions as a backbencher, Corbyn never went out of his way to bash the Labour leadership and damage their election chances). This, at the end of the day, is nothing but a gift to the Tory party. Picking now to splinter off really is a head-desk moment in terms of providing free distraction from the Brexit crisis and allowing the Tories to paint themselves as the united party while Labour are divided.

I also find the splinter group’s deployment of the old right-wing attack line that “Corbyn’s Labour is institutionally racist and anti-Semitic” to be deeply cynical. Not just because anti-semitism in Labour has demonstrably decreased under Corbyn’s leadership, but because I believe all of the following to be simultaneously true:

1) Anti-semitism is bad (obviously - we literally fought a war against the Nazis over this).
2) Anti-semitism (including the “accidental” kind) is still present in low levels across the political spectrum, but is most prevalent on the far right.
3) Reports of anti-semitism within Labour are massively overstated by the media, as concluded by a Jewish research group.
4) Meanwhile, blatant anti-semitic remarks (“You are a self-hating Jew”) live on the BBC go unchallenged by presenters.

I feel that selective politicising of racism cheapens the experience of people who genuinely suffer from it, and undermines real efforts to stamp it out.

[Mechelle]

Among some of the others, Ann Coffey is the MP for the constituency where I work (just like the one where I live, this is a Labour held seat in the north of England which voted to remain, despite the media's narrative). I think it was a surprise that she did choose to leave the party, but my impression is that most people would vote for her still.

Sarah Wollaston has quite a high profile on health issues. She is a medical doctor,with no Conservative background, and has supported minimum pricing on alcohol, for example.

I haven't checked, but I think Mike Gapes is the oldest of the group and he has a long record of fighting against Trotskyite entryism, going back to his student days.

I am a bit perplexed by your description of Heidi Allen as a hard right Tory MP. She has said today that she would like to kill off the Conservative Party, which I appreciate, and has spoken against the welfare cuts and her own experience of abortion - quite different to Anna Soubry, who has said how great the Conservative- Liberal Democrat coalition was. I do like her (Allen), and had wondered what she was doing in that party.

Talking of Trotskyite entryists, Derek Hatton, once the deputy leader of Liverpool City Council, who was expelled from the Labour Party in 1986, was readmitted on Monday, just as the first seven centrists were leaving in an unfortunate piece of timing. However, on Wednesday, his membership was suspended following an anti-Semitic tweet from 2012, although some deny that it was, stating that there was a particular responsibility on Jews to condemn the Israeli government. I have met him in a social context, incidentally, and he was very loud and gobby, which shouldn't come as a surprise!

[Eye of Horus]

Thanks for the additional insight, Mechelle. I also think it’s great you’ve been able to meet your local MP and councillors, since so far I’ve only been able to talk to mine via email!

Perhaps calling Heidi Allen “hard right” is a bit harsh in retrospect, as she is not a fanatic in the mould of, say, Gove or Johnson or Rees-Mogg (that said, Rees-Mogg was on Question Time last week arguing that Shamima Begum should be viewed as an abuse victim and not just a terrorist - I guess even a broken grandfather clock can be right once or twice a day). However, her voting record has been almost exclusively in line with (hard right) Conservative policy since her election in 2015.

In that context, her tearing up over food banks looks at best like the naivete of someone who never stepped out of the Westminster bubble (or thought to listen to the many, many reports from the UN, charities and other voices on the ground), and at worst like the cynicism of someone who knows that the media will always report their words at face value. I expect the truth is somewhere in the middle, with her disagreeing with some elements of Tory policy but not actually having the guts to vote against them...but that isn’t exactly a good look either.

That said, now she has actually quit the Tory party, she has a chance to convince me that she will fight for more moderate and compassionate policies.

In today’s news, the Independent Group apparently offered to replace the DUP as the government’s prop...in return for a people’s vote on the Brexit deal.

[TheGlyphstone]

So Last Week Tonight's inaugural Season 6 episode was an update on the approach of Brexit. Now, I absolutely love John, his jokes are fantastic and his show is legitimately better-researched than most actual news despite his insistent claims otherwise. But he's also a fervent, almost fanatical Remainer, and I sometimes think that bias overpowers his usual ability to present a fully informed portrayal of the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaBQfSAVt0s

So, how close to reality is his frankly apocalyptic portrayal of what's coming March 29th?

[Humble Scribe]

Glyphstone, no-one knows for sure. But in the event of a no-deal Brexit, all of my experience (as director of a UK company whose products are sold worldwide) is that it could be really and truly fucked beyond anything we can possibly imagine. I don't think many leavers are aware of just how integrated our supply chains are with European companies and countries, having grown that way over 40 years, and how disastrous disruption of that could be. There's a lot of hand-waving and saying "well, we survived WWII", but little appreciation of what modern laws and commerce actually mean in practice. And there is a blithe acceptance that apparently "WTO rules" is OK, without any appreciation of what a legal and commercial can of worms that opens. Sadly, the prominent Brexiteers *do* appreciate this - that's why they've offshored their businesses - see Jacob Rees Mogg and his finance business moving to Dublin, for example. Seriously, what John Oliver describes in that segment could just be the tip of the iceberg. Now I don't believe for a moment that even Theresa May or even JRM actually thinks No Deal is a possibility - they're all using it as a negotiating stance to push their own favoured interpretation of Brexit. My worry is that we are 6 weeks from officially leaving, and there is NOTHING legally in place yet for when that happens. That is irresponsible on a level I have never seen with a British government in my lifetime. There is too much brinkmanship and not enough attention to the fact that this could all just go badly wrong, and no willingness to engage with the facts of e.g. the Good Friday Agreement. I would feel better about it if we had an opposition, but apparently Saint Jeremy is also runing scared of his Brexit wing.