Trump

[John Birch]

Who was it who once said 'If American conservatives decide they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism-- they will abandon democracy'? I think it was actually a conservative.

The deterioration of the level of debate and discussion on the right has been absolutely disastrous for the GOP from an intellectual standpoint. Listen to Bill Buckley on Firing Line back in the 70s and then play an episode of the Rush Limbaugh Show and you'll pretty much see the degeneration of discourse in American conservatism a nutshell. Birtherism and the Republican reaction to losing this year's election (as if they haven't lost the popular vote in nearly every presidential election in the last three decades) are just the culmination of that process.

[Oniya]

Who was it who once said 'If American conservatives decide they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism-- they will abandon democracy'? I think it was actually a conservative.

Google tells me that it comes from David Frum's 'Trumpocracy'.  I'm not sure what his leanings are.

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/56364271-trumpocracy-the-corruption-of-the-american-republic

[Haibane]

Several investigations have found that *most* of the violence and destruction being associated with the BLM/Antifa Protests/Riots were actually caused by Trump fans. Exact percentage is hard to pin down obviously, but the usual conclusion is "definitely more than half, possibly as high as 80%".

I've been saying this for months. A person with a bit of experience and wisdom can watch a video of a BLM protest and just know that those people are not going to go looting downtown after it gets dark.

[TheVillain]

Google tells me that it comes from David Frum's 'Trumpocracy'.  I'm not sure what his leanings are.

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/56364271-trumpocracy-the-corruption-of-the-american-republic

David Frum wrote speeches for W. He's pretty conservative, he just never got on board the MAGA train so you might not notice right away.

[Kitteredge]

I believe Frum made up the utterly bullshit "Axis of Evil" term, meaning Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, suggesting they were in cahoots against the West. Y'know, North Korea having jack shit to do with the other two and Iran and Iraq mortal enemies.

Just part of the blitz of unbelieveable bullshit from the Bush administration that, unchecked, lead to the even more unbelievable bullshit of Trump and Co.

[TheVillain]

You know, I figured we'd at some point get a President that was even worse then W. I just thought it would take longer.

[gaggedLouise]

This is for Trump, folllowing his latest act of self-embarrassment which is all over the news.

I bet Bill Barr is very relieved that he got out in time. Those senators and congressmen who were planning to line up behind Trmp and challenge the vote on wednesday suddenly found that the stakes for them have been raised even higher....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HNWhVXcjV8

[Chulanowa]

You know, I figured we'd at some point get a President that was even worse then W. I just thought it would take longer.

"I'm embarrassed by Trump" is nowhere near on the same grade of badness as "George W. Bush committed genocide."

Let's keep a real perspective here. Over two million people are dead because of Bush directly, not even counting the further instability all that caused. It was Bush who decided to re-establish torture - up to and including literal child rape - as a method of interrogation.

Trump's plenty bad, don't get me wrong. But he doesn't come close to Bush. hell he's not even in the top ten worst presidents. He's more in the pathetic middle along with Coolidge and Ford.

[gaggedLouise]

"I'm embarrassed by Trump" is nowhere near on the same grade of badness as "George W. Bush committed genocide."

Let's keep a real perspective here. Over two million people are dead because of Bush directly, not even counting the further instability all that caused. It was Bush who decided to re-establish torture - up to and including literal child rape - as a method of interrogation.

Trump's plenty bad, don't get me wrong. But he doesn't come close to Bush. hell he's not even in the top ten worst presidents. He's more in the pathetic middle along with Coolidge and Ford.

Trump could easily have got the US into a lengthy, full-scale war with Iran or a nuclear standoff with North Korea, most likely leading to many millions dead in either case, simply beacuse of his lack of understanding of diplomacy and his own temper tantrums. The fact that there hasn't been a war with either one so far isn't really his doing either. The man actually had fool's luck for three years of his tenure: most presidents get a major crisis on their watch before they're midway through their term, a crisis that really tests their abilities and intelligence, but for Trump it took three full years.

Besides, it's a stretch to say he hasn't got the US into a war: he's been attacking the constitution, the workings of the US judiciary and even the majority of the US people who disapprove of him, attacked these from the start of his term till today. But that's all fine and dandy to him, because in his mind, people who didn't vote for him and do not support his ideas are plainly not real Americans, they are "not our people".

[TheVillain]

"I'm embarrassed by Trump" is nowhere near on the same grade of badness as "George W. Bush committed genocide."

Let's keep a real perspective here. Over two million people are dead because of Bush directly, not even counting the further instability all that caused. It was Bush who decided to re-establish torture - up to and including literal child rape - as a method of interrogation.

Trump's plenty bad, don't get me wrong. But he doesn't come close to Bush. hell he's not even in the top ten worst presidents. He's more in the pathetic middle along with Coolidge and Ford.

Cute, but Trump's turned ICE into literally a string of Concentration Camps. And by all accounts the only reason he hasn't nuked half a dozen other countries by now is that the Pentagon won't let him. *The Pentagon* thinks Trump is too nuke happy. And the State Department is flat out telling people his enabling of rightwing extremism has made a 2nd Civil War pretty much inevitable.

[Regina Minx]

There was another 'perfect' call.

TLDR: There was leaked audio of a call made between Trump and GA  Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, in which Trump repeatedly insisted that corruption, cheating, and fraud flipped the state from him, but also asked Raffensperger to "find" 11,000 votes to flip the state to him.

[Kitteredge]

I despise Bush, but Trump has done amazing damage to our government. It's impossible to know if we can rescue the State Department, the Department of Homeland Security, FEC, FCC, across the board, not to mention the Department of Education, which I don't think will ever recover. Our debt has exploded. We don't know how they deliberately fucked up the census. Trump has lead to an astounding resurgence of racism and racist violence that will not go away. He's lead the way in conspiracy thinking, QAnon thinking, hoaxism, a complete and utter rot of both body political and culture of the country. Spend any time with Trumpers -- numbering in the millions -- and you detect the mush that he has engineered.

None of that snaps back into place. He's created a cult of personality that will not simply disappear. And then through sheer incompetence, corruption and theft, undermining science, and encouraging maskless rallies and non-compliance, we are approaching 400,000 COVID dead with worse days in sight. PLUS we have awful logisitics and lack of vaccines due to inattention.

I haven't mentioned the very real prospect that he and Kushner, not to mention outliers like Michael Flynn, have sold secrets all over the place for personal benefit.

[stormwyrm]

There was another 'perfect' call.

TLDR: There was leaked audio of a call made between Trump and GA  Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, in which Trump repeatedly insisted that corruption, cheating, and fraud flipped the state from him, but also asked Raffensperger to "find" 11,000 votes to flip the state to him.

Here's another link: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/03/trump-pressures-georgia-top-election-official-to-find-votes-and-overturn-biden-victory-.html

“It’s pretty appalling that the only question is whether the president is sufficiently detached from reality to deem that he hasn’t committed a crime,” Levitt said. This Levitt is Justin Levitt, an election law expert and professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, and a former Justice Dept official. That's putting things

[TheVillain]

Here's another link: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/03/trump-pressures-georgia-top-election-official-to-find-votes-and-overturn-biden-victory-.html

“It’s pretty appalling that the only question is whether the president is sufficiently detached from reality to deem that he hasn’t committed a crime,” Levitt said. This Levitt is Justin Levitt, an election law expert and professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, and a former Justice Dept official. That's putting things

If you actually read the Mueller Report they said basically the same thing. Mueller identified about 120 events that under normal circumstances qualified Collusion and/or Obstruction, there was just a question of if Trump had criminal level intent.

[Callie Del Noire]

If you actually read the Mueller Report they said basically the same thing. Mueller identified about 120 events that under normal circumstances qualified Collusion and/or Obstruction, there was just a question of if Trump had criminal level intent.

I think this time he’s shown intent.. repeatedly.

[Oniya]

If you actually read the Mueller Report they said basically the same thing. Mueller identified about 120 events that under normal circumstances qualified Collusion and/or Obstruction, there was just a question of if Trump had criminal level intent.

At one point, Audible had it as a free download, and the guy reading volume 2 (the Obstruction section) had a fabulous voice.  I - may have large sections stored in my meat-RAM.   

At some point, you just have to ask yourself if the sheer volume of incidents can be plausibly explained as anything other than intentional. I know there's the thing about not attributing to malice what can be explained by ignorance, but seriously.

[CrownedSun]

Honestly, criminal intent or not, I find that concept stated by the Mueller Report to be... legally questionable..

Not knowing that what you're doing is illegal is not a defense.

I mean, hell, you can get a speeding ticket even if you didn't REALIZE you were speeding. There's no intent. You were expected, and in fact required, to take reasonable precautions to ensure that you don't go faster than the speed limit while driving. If you don't, you have committed a crime and will pay the penalty. Hell, if you are physically INCAPABLE of even knowing if you're going to the speed limit or not, they won't let you drive at all.

[Regina Minx]

Not knowing that what you're doing is illegal is not a defense.

Well. That's not true though. There are a number of crimes at the federal and state level that requires mens rea. That is, you have to intend to break the law in order to be guilty of the crime described. Usually, in statutes this is what you are meant to understand when the legislature uses words like 'knowingly,' 'willfully,' or 'intentionally.'

Mens rea crimes are actually the norm in most of the criminal code, exceptions are what we call 'strict liability' which basically states that if you do the thing that is a crime it doesn't matter if you knew it was a crime or not, if you meant to or not, if you remember it or not. You're guilty and subject to the penalty. This is why 'she told me she was 18, officer!' is not a defense against statutory rape charges. They are strict liability crimes almost everywhere. It doesn't matter if the person in question lied about their age, even furnished a fake ID. If they actually turned out to be underage, you can go down for statutory rape. Likewise drunk driving; it would be very easy to argue a lack of intent for an inebriated person, but drunk driving is a strict liability crime.

We can argue about whether or not this should be the case generally or for specific offenses or in particular contexts, but a lack of mens rea can and is a defense, and an element of the crime that must be proved before a conviction can be secured.

[Oniya]

Hell, if you are physically INCAPABLE of even knowing if you're going to the speed limit or not, they won't let you drive at all.

I feel like I should make a David Lee Roth joke here. 

[stormwyrm]

The whole mens rea thing forms the legal distinction between manslaughter and murder. Both manslaughter and murder involve killing someone, but manslaughter lacks the mens rea element of intention to kill. In the same way Trump's threats could be considered solicitation of election fraud, but only if he knows that there actually weren't thousands of uncounted ballots, so he would be pressuring Raffensperger to falsely "find" them. If on the other hand he didn't know that those ballots actually don't exist, can we instead have him sent to a mental institution for treatment? That's a level of delusion that one usually associates with schizophrenia or something similar.

[Vekseid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3hrN0cP58Y

There have to be hundreds if not thousands of tapes like this waiting.

[Chulanowa]

Trump could easily have got the US into a lengthy, full-scale war with Iran or a nuclear standoff with North Korea, most likely leading to many millions dead in either case, simply beacuse of his lack of understanding of diplomacy and his own temper tantrums. The fact that there hasn't been a war with either one so far isn't really his doing either. The man actually had fool's luck for three years of his tenure: most presidents get a major crisis on their watch before they're midway through their term, a crisis that really tests their abilities and intelligence, but for Trump it took three full years.

Besides, it's a stretch to say he hasn't got the US into a war: he's been attacking the constitution, the workings of the US judiciary and even the majority of the US people who disapprove of him, attacked these from the start of his term till today. But that's all fine and dandy to him, because in his mind, people who didn't vote for him and do not support his ideas are plainly not real Americans, they are "not our people".

Yes he could have done all that. But he didn't. Meanwhile Bush DID murder two million people, through intentional action. It's an important distinction to make, this whole "actually did" versus "didn't actually."

And every president since Nixon has attacked the constitution. Every president tries to scrape more power for themselves out of it and for the most part, Congress allows it. They complain, but htey allow it; becuase it'll be their guy in there next with all that power, see?

Cute, but Trump's turned ICE into literally a string of Concentration Camps. And by all accounts the only reason he hasn't nuked half a dozen other countries by now is that the Pentagon won't let him. *The Pentagon* thinks Trump is too nuke happy. And the State Department is flat out telling people his enabling of rightwing extremism has made a 2nd Civil War pretty much inevitable.

ICE was created under Bush and has always served this function. Bush also wanted to fling nukes around - remember his whole "nuclear bunker buster" thing? Y'know, gonna fling "small" nuclear weapons at Taliban hideouts in the Afghanistan mountains?

Bush has all the same bad shit as Trump, from outrageous power grabs against the constitution, gross abuses against immigrants  and other minority populations in the US, and international chaos... But Bush also directly caused the deaths of two million people. That's important, and I'm begging people to keep that in mind.

[gaggedLouise]

I feel like I should make a David Lee Roth joke here. 

https://www.discogs.com/Various-Life-In-The-Fast-Lane/release/2975051

[Haibane]

That's important, and I'm begging people to keep that in mind.

It is important, yes and it is always borne in mind. The Gulf War was an international crime of despicable proportions. I feel ashamed that Tony Blair clung onto Bush's coat-tails and got us dragged in as well.

The issue with Trump however is the non-physical damage he has done. He has damaged American politics, he has damaged American global standing, he has damaged international relations, he has been racist, misogynist, xenophobic; he has brought the office of the President of the USA into very serious disrepute such that it is now a forever changed institution. Many many Europeans, ordinary people as well as politicians, consider the USA to be a joke right now, in terms of politics, global power/ability and in terms of respect to climate change. Isolationism didn't work as a policy in the 1930s (in Europe as well as in the USA) and that was before globally integrated comms and trade. It doesn't work in spades now, yet Trump has pursued it to a point where the damage is immense. He has wrecked several once-meaningful government departments. His recent spate of pardons have made serious crime no longer a threat to political aides and supporters.

Millions of deaths and much suffering is one thing you can quite easily measure, but the harm Trump has done is of a completely different form and we cannot know for some years how bad it is or how lasting its effects will be.

[Missy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3hrN0cP58Y

There have to be hundreds if not thousands of tapes like this waiting.

lets hope your right about that, I think it's worth revisiting the Mueller Report honestly.