All Hail God-Emperor Trump

[CrownedSun]

Vader had better hair.  In Episode 6, that is, not the 'prequels'.

*snickers*

Harsh, but true.

♥

[Trigon]

True indeed 

[Silk]

I have an off query and a little food for thought given the whole "Trump was a democrat that became republican" thing.

Is it that he became more right-wing, or is it that over the years Democrats and Republicans both went further to the left, with Trumps standpoint remaining stagnant. I ask that because in quite a few cases Trump is still pretty left leaning, just not "as left" as the current Democratic party has become.

[TheGlyphstone]

I think it's more that the Democrats have become increasingly 'left', and the Republicans have become increasingly 'right'. Trump has drifted to the right slower than the mainstream GOP, but that's left him to the right of the new centerline.

[Cassandra LeMay]

If Trump was ever really a Democrat is not all that clear, in my opinion. If you look at the advertisement he took out in 1989 concerning the "Central Park Five", it hardly reads like a "left wing" opinion. I think that says more about the man than his donations to various politicians. As for cases where it seems he has changed his opinion over the years it is difficult (perhaps impossible) to tell how firmly he held those opinions to begin with.

[HannibalBarca]

Trump claims whatever is in his best interest.  I don't see him as a Democrat or Republican.  He's a narcissist.  He's used the connections he has to further his own agenda, which is whatever helps him.

[Silk]

Trump claims whatever is in his best interest.  I don't see him as a Democrat or Republican.  He's a narcissist.  He's used the connections he has to further his own agenda, which is whatever helps him

I fail to see how Clinton was any better for that though, if anything she was worse as she actively flaunted her snowflake status as "the first female president"

[Trigon]

I fail to see how Clinton was any better for that though, if anything she was worse as she actively flaunted her snowflake status as "the first female president"

It's a moot point now, cause if the Wikileaks emails are anything to go by, the Clinton campaign was actually partly responsible for his rise: http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2016/11/09/clintons-pied-piper-strategy-totally-backfired-n2243508

Of course its not the only thing that was at play here, far from it. But the fact that they helped to encouraged his rise (and also sabotaged Sanders campaign, the only person who would have defeated Trump) doesn't bode well for their ethics. Hubris doesn't even begin to describe what just happened here...

[Cassandra LeMay]

It's a moot point now, cause if the Wikileaks emails are anything to go by, the Clinton campaign was actually partly responsible for his rise: http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2016/11/09/clintons-pied-piper-strategy-totally-backfired-n2243508

Of course its not the only thing that was at play here, but the fact that they encouraged his rise doesn't bode well for their ethics. Hubris doesn't even begin to describe what just happened here...

That memo quoted in the article tells us nothing about what became of that plan, and if it was ever implemented in any way, shape, or form. Both campaign teams probably tossed back and forth a lot of ideas, only that the memos from the Trump campaign haven't been leaked.

But when it comes to hurting Trump through increased media attention that wasn't all that bad a plan. In this election there seems to have been a fairly strong negaitve correlation between media exposure and poll numbers, i.e. the more Trump or Clinton was in the spotlight, the worse they were doing in the polls. It's not entirely surprising, if you take into account that these were pretty much the two most disliked candidates of all time.

[Trigon]

That memo quoted in the article tells us nothing about what became of that plan, and if it was ever implemented in any way, shape, or form. Both campaign teams probably tossed back and forth a lot of ideas, only that the memos from the Trump campaign haven't been leaked.

You do have a good point there. Alas, I concede that there are no simple answers that explain how Trump managed to win despite being the most unpopular candidate of all time

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

In my honest opinion, I think the reason this is all happening is because it is symptomatic of the fact that capitalism is now on its last legs, and probably won't hold out for much longer. If there is any real silver lining to this, I suspect that the reign of the upcoming neo-fascist regimes will actually be very short (~say, around 10-15 years at most)

But at the same time, we should remember that the Clinton campaign did actually believe that campaigning against Trump would be a trivial matter and easily winnable, at least until it became obvious that he did in fact have a serious shot at winning. So if they did actually carry this plan through, it represents a gross strategic blunder. They should have instead found a way to strangle Trumpism while it was still in the cradle (ie, nominating Sanders would have been a good start...)

[Suiko]

I'm a little nervous about posting here, but I will anyway because I think it's important.

Just as a preface, I'm not American so strictly speaking it's none of my business, but I'd like to throw a little devil's advocate into the mix.

1. A lot of people make mention of how Clinton got most votes, but Trump more states. That's how the elections work in America - I'm not sure why it isn't popular vote, but it isn't. I think it's a little unfair of people to complain about how voting works just because they didn't get the result they wanted. Granted if the result was the other way then Trump supporters would probably be saying the exact same thing - it's an overall issue.

2. I also think it's unfair of people to dog pile the man before he's had chance to do anything. Much like the Brexit vote, I voted Remain and was disappointed, but we don't always get what we want. Having a tantrum, protesting, starting fires and decrying the entire country isn't the way to go. Either he does a good job or he doesn't. He spoke to enough people that he won, and people ought to respect that.

3. The way this thread is set up is like an echo chamber. I don't know if this is the place for discussion or debate, but certainly this sort of thing isn't going to inspire it. I would bet money that there are people on this site who voted Trump, who feel a bit annoyed and upset that they're being told how they voted for a racist, a bigot, a sexist, etc. It isn't respectful and to me it leaves a source taste.

Just some points that I think need to be kept in mind. Hope I didn't come across as up my own ass in the process.

Also sorry for any errors - phone typing is awkward.

[MiraMirror]

I'm a little nervous about posting here, but I will anyway because I think it's important.

Just as a preface, I'm not American so strictly speaking it's none of my business, but I'd like to throw a little devil's advocate into the mix.

1. A lot of people make mention of how Clinton got most votes, but Trump more states. That's how the elections work in America - I'm not sure why it isn't popular vote, but it isn't. I think it's a little unfair of people to complain about how voting works just because they didn't get the result they wanted. Granted if the result was the other way then Trump supporters would probably be saying the exact same thing - it's an overall issue.

2. I also think it's unfair of people to dog pile the man before he's had chance to do anything. Much like the Brexit vote, I voted Remain and was disappointed, but we don't always get what we want. Having a tantrum, protesting, starting fires and decrying the entire country isn't the way to go. Either he does a good job or he doesn't. He spoke to enough people that he won, and people ought to respect that.

3. The way this thread is set up is like an echo chamber. I don't know if this is the place for discussion or debate, but certainly this sort of thing isn't going to inspire it. I would bet money that there are people on this site who voted Trump, who feel a bit annoyed and upset that they're being told how they voted for a racist, a bigot, a sexist, etc. It isn't respectful and to me it leaves a source taste.

Just some points that I think need to be kept in mind. Hope I didn't come across as up my own ass in the process.

Also sorry for any errors - phone typing is awkward.

Honestly, I'm amazed you're able to type that well on a phone.  I'm awful at it.

For me, I don't call the people who voted for him racists and bigots.  I understand people had reasons, and I'm sure while there were some people like that, most likely voted because they thought he could bring the change they want.  Fine, I respect those votes and I'm not going to lose friends over it.

The thing is, Trump's just...I don't know how to say it without sounding like an ass, but he is a horrible person who constantly goes back and forth on things that we need his actual stance on.  He mocked a disable person, insulted the family/families of troops, screamed bloody murder when he was losing, and yes, I do feel a bit bitter that Clinton got the popular vote, but Trump won the electoral college.  Popular vote, to me, says that more of America wanted Clinton and chose her, while electoral college just invokes the image of a bunch of farts in a room saying, "Yeah, this guy/girl's good, screw what America wants."  (To be fair, America has a long history of corruption.)

Furthermore, his running mate Pence is even worse.  As someone in the LGBT community, I do have very real reason to fear anything associated with that man.  He took money away for HIV research to try endorsing conversion therapy, which is nothing short of abuse, and claims he's going to do everything he can to get it approved in the U.S.  Yes, I know there are checks and balances, but everything I've seen from those two so far makes me think that Pence is the one pulling the strings, and Trump is the puppet.  What makes it worse are the people who keep saying, "Oh, you shouldn't be scared!"  Uh, why shouldn't I?  I don't want to end up in a government registry, attacked by the worst Trump supporters, murdered, raped, or electrocuted/verbally and physically abused into compliance.

I know there have been some awful Democrats doing awful things, and it's absolutely terrible.  What I don't like is that the same people who did this when Obama got elected are acting like angels and calling the protestors whiny babies, when, in my personal opinion, there's more reason to protest this.

You come across as well-informed, especially being from another country, and I'm happy to discuss things with you. ^^

[Suiko]

Good to know I didn't come across as a prick~

Honestly I'm not as well-informed as I ought to be on the subject, but from what I'm seeing on the news it feels like the outcry is doing more harm than good. Pence is a worry for a lot of people and he definitely has some... quesrionable ideas, but (again to play devil's advocate) a lot of people clearly had major issues with the Clinton campaign and the two-faced nature they seemed to have.

Everything goes both ways.

I do think that it should be popular vote, and like I said before, I don't know the reasons why it isn't... but that isn't exactly Trump's doing/fault.

I also don't like seeing Obama have some of his final parting words to the army calling on them to fight against authority and the president. That just seems cringing to me, whatever you think of the state of things.

We have to make the best of what we have, and screaming, crying, raging, claiming corruprion/rigging doesn't help anyone.

[Cassandra LeMay]

I also don't like seeing Obama have some of his final parting words to the army calling on them to fight against authority and the president. That just seems cringing to me, whatever you think of the state of things.

Could you provide a source/link please? If Obama actually said something that boils down to this I'd like to read/hear it, because I am fairly certain he did not just say "the US military should fight president-elect Trump".

[Suiko]

Certainly.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/obama-reminds-troops-they-have-right-protest-against-authority-and#.WEg_zyWbU7M.facebook

Obviously he didn't out right freight say 'fight the president' but all the same it made me cringe a little. It's not exactly a helpful thing to say.

Edit for the phone's helpful autocorrect.

[CrownedSun]

It's not a popular vote because if it did, the voters in popular states would be massively disenfranchised by that decision and the only way to change it is an amendment which would need the support of a lot of those states, who have no rational reason to support said amendment. (Which doesn't mean it couldn't pass, honestly, since-- well,- Trump did get elected. People don't always make rational choices.) That seriously, seriously, if you look at a population heat map of our country there are large swaths that just don't show up at all or barely do. Plus very very small areas that show up a a lot.

I don't think just going straight popular vote would be the best way to handle things.

I'd probably, if I was writing the system now, change it to a weighted popular vote. So that people in, say, the really big cities? They get proportionally less of a vote, not dissimilar to how the Electoral College works, but still actually counting everyone's vote at the end of the day. So everyone votes, their vote adds to an overall tally, and whomever's tally is the highest wins the election.

That'd solve a lot of problems IMHO, and result in a system where people who live in parts of the country where lots of other people don't? Still have a voice.

Yet, at the same time, people in big cities actually all got counted... n' people who live in parts of the country that heavily disfavor their party... their votes actually matter..

But, this is the kind of thing that just won't happen. :)

[Suiko]

It's complicated, certainly. I have no idea how best to weight it - or even if weight votes would be fair.

Not sure. I qouldnt want to be the one to make the call, but then I don't run for governments

[CrownedSun]

It's complicated, certainly. I have no idea how best to weight it - or even if weight votes would be fair.

Not sure. I qouldnt want to be the one to make the call, but then I don't run for governments

We effectively have weighed votes right now, so we've already determined that they are fair, at least as far as our country goes.

[Suiko]

Weighted as in the places with more people grant more 'points'?

That does make sense, but it doesn't always work properly. But then nothing does.

[CrownedSun]

Nope, places with more people get proportionally less of a vote by the electoral college system.

Like I said, it's designed so that some of the states in our Union actually have the ability to influence our election. They would be largely ignored, both in terms of the voting system and in terms of campaigning, if we went straight popular vote. Candidates would spend the vast majority of their time in the major cities.

[Trigon]

We have to make the best of what we have, and screaming, crying, raging, claiming corruprion/rigging doesn't help anyone.

The problem is, is that Trump is filling his cabinet to the brim with swamp monsters:  http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/309576-what-trumps-cabinet-picks-reveal

Mike Pence is bad enough. Stephen Bannon is even worse. And all the rest are either corrupt or very incompetent. Everyone screaming, ranging, etc. isn't in the wrong here. What we are seeing, in the words of Bill Maher, is a right wing coup in slow motion; if anything we all should be screaming even louder.

[Suiko]

Nope, places with more people get proportionally less of a vote by the electoral college system.

Like I said, it's designed so that some of the states in our Union actually have the ability to influence our election. They would be largely ignored, both in terms of the voting system and in terms of campaigning, if we went straight popular vote. Candidates would spend the vast majority of their time in the major cities.

Ahh I see. Hmm, okay I get it now. Thanks for explaining

The problem is, is that Trump is filling his cabinet to the brim with swamp monsters:  http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/309576-what-trumps-cabinet-picks-reveal

Mike Pence is bad enough. Stephen Bannon is even worse. And all the rest are either corrupt or very incompetent. Everyone screaming, ranging, etc. isn't in the wrong here. What we are seeing, in the words of Bill Maher, is a right wing coup in slow motion; if anything we all should be screaming even louder.

But can it be a coup if people are voting for it? No one on Trump's campaign made any secret of their beliefs, and people wanted those things.

A lot of people are unhappy with the status quo and that's something that seems to be shaking a lot of other people up. Granted there is a lot of badness in the government, but there is a way to protest. What I've been seeing isn't the right way.

[Valerian]

Ahh I see. Hmm, okay I get it now. Thanks for explaining
But can it be a coup if people are voting for it? No one on Trump's campaign made any secret of their beliefs, and people wanted those things.

A lot of people are unhappy with the status quo and that's something that seems to be shaking a lot of other people up. Granted there is a lot of badness in the government, but there is a way to protest. What I've been seeing isn't the right way.

There are lots of protests and grassroots movements opposing Trump that are peaceable and focused, probably a lot more than those that are making the news for being loud and obnoxious.  Signing petitions and organizing spending strikes aren't flashy enough. 

Speaking of the voters who wanted Trump -- a remarkably small fraction of the population -- there's an interesting article here from fivethirtyeight analyzing how income and education affected voting patterns.  Basically, the lower the average education level in a particular county, the greater the likelihood that residents of that area voted for Trump.

[Suiko]

True enough about the protests on the news. People wouldn't watch news about petitions, ha ha.

I'm not surprised at all that those on lower incomes voted Trump. They're the ones feeling the most disillusioned with the way things are - speaking as one such person from across the sea. Not surprised at all.

[Valerian]

True enough about the protests on the news. People wouldn't watch news about petitions, ha ha.

I'm not surprised at all that those on lower incomes voted Trump. They're the ones feeling the most disillusioned with the way things are - speaking as one such person from across the sea. Not surprised at all.

No, actually, income wasn't the best indicator for votes, it was education.  Even those with low to average household incomes still tended to vote for Clinton as long as they had higher education levels.  That's one reason why I thought the article was so interesting.