You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 09, 2016, 03:52:28 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?  (Read 12912 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #225 on: October 04, 2014, 08:22:00 PM »
Don't quote me on this one but somewhere I read or saw that the US actually has a similar problem to Europe as Bawer describes it. Basically he says that the Us accepts immigrants and they easily become part of the society while europeans keep to themselves and always consider immigrants below them, on some subconscious level at least. But from what I've read or seen it seems like many immigrants in the US are suffering from similar problems, particularly Mexicans.

I think the criticism is generally directed more towards illegal immigrants.  But as far as I am aware, there is no concerted effort to prevent those of Mexican descent (or Hispanic descent as a whole) from integrating into mainstream life in the US.  If anything, I think most of us would say the desired outcome is to very much have them become integrated into mainstream life.

Offline Kythia

  • Noooo-one Fights like Kythia no-one bites like Kythia
  • Dame
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Gender: Female
  • No one chain smokes Marlboro lights like Kythia
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #226 on: October 04, 2014, 08:25:16 PM »
Givens would disagree  In fact, she seems to suggest that the situation is exactly the opposite of your/Bawer's claims.  She also, in a novel move, has stats and facts to back up her opinion rather than just asserting it.

Quote
Controlling immigration is generally uncontroversial. However, countries have taken different approaches and the emphasis on policy changes over time. The US has focused more recently on external threats, particularly from Mexico. Therefore, border control has taken precedence, while there has been almost no emphasis on immigrant integration. In fact, the US has no nationally-organized integration policy. 9 In contrast, Europe has taken a more internal approach, which has led to a greater focus on integration than border control. For instance, European countries have focused a great deal of time and energy on developing nationally implemented integration policies. 10 The focus of these policies has shifted over time in many countries like the netherlands[sic], Britain, and Germany, from a multicultural approach to one more based on assimilation, which places most of the integration burden on the immigrant.

along with other such quotes.

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #227 on: October 04, 2014, 08:33:19 PM »
Her quote is referring to "integration" in the sense of integrating the immigrant into the existing mainstream culture of the host country.  Notice in the last sentence of your quote, she states how. "the focus in European countries has shifted from a multicultural approach (akin to the United States, where immigrants actually shape future US culture) to one more based on assimilation, which places most of the integration burden on the immigrant."

In essence, when she says the US lacks a nationally-organized integration policy, she is saying that immigrants to the US are far more welcome to let their cultural traditions and values permeate into mainstream American life, which is Bawer's thesis on why American Muslims feel less like outcasts.  American Muslims attend Mosques, Islamic cultural events, and yet, we still see them as Americans as part of our shared, multicultural society.

To the contrary, the fact that many European countries have nationally organized integration policies to "assimilate" to their existing culture creates an the antagonism Bawer describes between the immigrant and the host citizen.

Offline Kythia

  • Noooo-one Fights like Kythia no-one bites like Kythia
  • Dame
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Gender: Female
  • No one chain smokes Marlboro lights like Kythia
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #228 on: October 04, 2014, 08:33:56 PM »
Quote
On the other side of the Atlantic, most European countries have realized the importance of immigrant integration and have created coherent long term strategies for accommodating and, more importantly, actively facilitating integration.  This is an area in which the United States can still learn from Europe.

From Here (pdf)

And many others.  Basically it looks like everyone is wrong - pace me there is a difference between policies on integration, but its exactly the opposite of what Bawer and Valthazar claim.

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #229 on: October 04, 2014, 08:47:54 PM »
Kythia, that quote you cited above is slightly out of context, in the sense that it is part of a much larger section on what the EU can learn from US immigration policy.  For example, from that same section, I can also quote these sentences out of context as evidence, which is poor evidence at best:

Quote
Several aspects of US policies toward immigrant integration are worth noting.  First, the "immigration bargain" in the United States includes a strong expectation that immigrations should become self-sufficient as quickly as possible and that they should expect relatively little support from the state.  Moreover, asylum seekers in the United States receive access to the labor market after a maximum of 180 days if their case has not yet been resolved.
Quote
Third, inclusive public education [in the US] that does not separate children on the basis of their academic performance at an early age (disadvntaging the children of immigrants who are still learning the host country language) helps to drive social and economic integration for those with immigrant backgrounds.

This is largely a subjective matter we are disagreeing on, since from different perspectives, one can assert that the US or the EU is more effective at welcoming and viewing immigrants as their own.

Offline Kythia

  • Noooo-one Fights like Kythia no-one bites like Kythia
  • Dame
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Gender: Female
  • No one chain smokes Marlboro lights like Kythia
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #230 on: October 04, 2014, 08:57:06 PM »
I'm not sure what point you're attempting to make here?  It's part of a section specifically devoted to what the EU can learn from the US yet specifically calls out the fact that the EU does this bit better.  Yanno, the bit that you're adamant it does worse.  To reiterate, even in the middle of a discussion about weaknesses of the system, it was specifically mentioned that the thing you claim is a weakness isn't.  I can't easily think of a more ringing refutation of your point.

This is only a subjective matter for you.  For me its an objective one.  The difference, and I can't believe this needs explaining, is that mine isn't based on opinions or what I think or what I would like to be true.  It's based on the research conducted by international bodies.  You are, of course, free to disagree with them.  However, you're not free to, unopposed, claim that my objective opinion based on the best research I can find is simply a subjective matter.

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #231 on: October 04, 2014, 09:08:22 PM »
This discussion began due to criticism of Bawer's book as lacking empirical evidence.  I already said I agreed with you, and explicitly mentioned its lack of objectivity.  As I stated earlier, I found value in his perspective as a self-reflective piece - an inherently subjective one:

That's very true, Bawer's book does lack empirical evidence.  I found its value more as a self-reflective piece that encourages the reader to think of these issues in new light.

There is a very strong case either way on this issue, and Bawer simply offers a perspective based on his observations and interpretations of the experience of immigrants in both Europe and the US.  We can find literature both criticizing and supporting the sociology of integration in both the EU and the  US.  At the end of the day, it comes down to the article author's interpretation of the institutions they choose to examine.

Perhaps this article says it best:

Quote
We conclude that while some of the grand ideas help to illuminate patterns of integration [between European and North American countries] in particular domains, none provides a sufficiently encompassing explanation – and each has significant failings. Moreover, none of these ideas highlights all of the features that we argue are critical, although these do not boil down to one “grand narrative.” These features are the characteristics or qualities that immigrants bring with them when they move to Europe or North America; demographic and other social and economic trends there; and, perhaps most important, historically rooted social, political, and economic institutions in each receiving society that create barriers as well as bridges to integration and inclusion.

Ultimately, it's an opinion that we form based on our interpretation of those sociopolitical, economic, and cultural "bridges to integration and inclusion."

Offline Beorning

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #232 on: October 05, 2014, 09:47:58 AM »
If I may hijack the thread for a moment... I have a specific Islam-related question.

As you most probably heard, ISIS has executed another hostage, a British man. On TV, I've heard that - in response to that - some British Muslims have gathered to pray for the murdered man and to denounce ISIS.

I've passed the news to one acquaintance of mine, who is every anti-Muslim (as in "Islam is equivalent to Nazism and should be banned in Europe"). She replied that the whole affair is, basically, an PR attempt on behalf on the Muslims. And that these people are, basically, lying - because, according to Islam, Muslims are forbidden to pray for non-Muslims.

Is it true? And, if it's not (which is the option I suspect to be true), then what should I tell to my acquaintance?

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #233 on: October 05, 2014, 10:13:02 AM »
Turn the question around on them. If they have said that Muslims are forbidden to pray for non-Muslims, get them to cite a verifiable reference for it. "I just heard somewhere" or "Everyone knows that" don't count ;)

Online Dashenka

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #234 on: October 05, 2014, 10:24:47 AM »
If I may hijack the thread for a moment... I have a specific Islam-related question.

As you most probably heard, ISIS has executed another hostage, a British man. On TV, I've heard that - in response to that - some British Muslims have gathered to pray for the murdered man and to denounce ISIS.

I've passed the news to one acquaintance of mine, who is every anti-Muslim (as in "Islam is equivalent to Nazism and should be banned in Europe"). She replied that the whole affair is, basically, an PR attempt on behalf on the Muslims. And that these people are, basically, lying - because, according to Islam, Muslims are forbidden to pray for non-Muslims.

Is it true? And, if it's not (which is the option I suspect to be true), then what should I tell to my acquaintance?

So if a Christian denounces itself from child molesting, it's a PR attempt on behalf on the Christians? Or to put it simply, every Christian is a child molestor? If she would have been anti-religion I'd sort of understand. You can't be against Islam but support other religions. THey are all equally good, bad, peaceful or violent.

Offline Formless

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #235 on: October 05, 2014, 10:29:24 AM »
I did say I bow out of the discussion. This post is meant to clarify Beoring's inquiry.


If you ask a Sheik ( Imam as some would call them. ) They would cite the verse that says ( And now that you've had the knowledge about thine faith , thine end is at hell , would you pray for them? ) Which means , no you cannot pray for them.

However , Mohammad's uncle himself ' Abo Talib ' was a heathen. Yet he treated Mohammad much better than the rest of Quraish. And when he was dead , it was told that Mohammad asked Gabriel if he can pray for him. And Gabriel said that God will offer him the Least punishment in hell.

So what do you conclude from this? I myself think that I can pray for whomever I want , and it is god's will to hear my prayer and treat the person I've prayed for however he wish. I simply expressed my bond towards that person. And we can have a bond with anyone regardless of faith. Be it a person from another faith or a person who is just human.

And I'd finally add Mohammad's Hadith about the ' Rule of Intentions '.

" Deeds count for their intentions. If one's intention when they migrate to be with God and His prophet. Then that is what his Migration will be for. If one's intention to be for a fortune or a life to live, then that is what his migration will be for. And if it was for a woman he wishes to be with , then that is what his migration will be for. "

A man can do something and though it may seem evil , god accounts for the intention of that deed. But that is the greatest grey area in Islam so ... Take it as you see it.

Offline Beorning

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #236 on: October 05, 2014, 11:00:49 AM »
Turn the question around on them. If they have said that Muslims are forbidden to pray for non-Muslims, get them to cite a verifiable reference for it. "I just heard somewhere" or "Everyone knows that" don't count ;)

The problem is, the lady has read the Quran and actually *can* cite verses, websites etc...

So if a Christian denounces itself from child molesting, it's a PR attempt on behalf on the Christians? Or to put it simply, every Christian is a child molestor?

Well, knowing my acquaintance, she would say that harming children is not in the Bible, while killing non-Muslims and holy war is in the Quaran...

If you ask a Sheik ( Imam as some would call them. ) They would cite the verse that says ( And now that you've had the knowledge about thine faith , thine end is at hell , would you pray for them? ) Which means , no you cannot pray for them.

However , Mohammad's uncle himself ' Abo Talib ' was a heathen. Yet he treated Mohammad much better than the rest of Quraish. And when he was dead , it was told that Mohammad asked Gabriel if he can pray for him. And Gabriel said that God will offer him the Least punishment in hell.

So what do you conclude from this? I myself think that I can pray for whomever I want , and it is god's will to hear my prayer and treat the person I've prayed for however he wish. I simply expressed my bond towards that person. And we can have a bond with anyone regardless of faith. Be it a person from another faith or a person who is just human.

Thank you for the explanation, Formless.

Unfortunately, the lady I mentioned wouldn't believe you, if you said it to her. She'd say you are lying...

BTW. She also claims that when Muslim say they are praying for peace, they are lying, too. She says there's a prescribed list of prayers in Islam and "world peace" isn't on them. So, according to her, Muslims can't pray for world peace - and if they claim they do, they're lying and spreading propaganda...
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 11:11:55 AM by Beorning »

Online Dashenka

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #237 on: October 05, 2014, 11:12:37 AM »


Well, knowing my acquaintance, she would say that harming children is not in the Bible, while killing non-Muslims and holy war is in the Quaran...


And that is where she is wrong. The bible is full of murder.

Online DarkAngel111

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #238 on: October 05, 2014, 12:36:17 PM »
If I may hijack the thread for a moment... I have a specific Islam-related question.

As you most probably heard, ISIS has executed another hostage, a British man. On TV, I've heard that - in response to that - some British Muslims have gathered to pray for the murdered man and to denounce ISIS.

I've passed the news to one acquaintance of mine, who is every anti-Muslim (as in "Islam is equivalent to Nazism and should be banned in Europe"). She replied that the whole affair is, basically, an PR attempt on behalf on the Muslims. And that these people are, basically, lying - because, according to Islam, Muslims are forbidden to pray for non-Muslims.

Is it true? And, if it's not (which is the option I suspect to be true), then what should I tell to my acquaintance?

It depends on what you pray for?.

Muhammad himself prayed That Allah show people of taif (I know my pronunciation for the town is wrong) the right way.
Instead of wishing them eternal Damnation. (As was suggested that if he did they would be forever damned). Because they stoned him till his shoes were filled with blood.

So when people say praying for non-muslims is not allowed that is Wrong. There are many more instances where Muslims have prayed. Including the time when Muhammad prayed for his Uncle. (as was mentioned by formless.)


On Another Note, when you said that no muslim prays for world peace you should visit the Mosques here in Pakistan (that is what I can speak for) That every Mosque I have been to prays that people would stop killing each other. Including but not limited to stop the terrorism of Talibans and ISIS etc.


But if someone is hellbent on not believing something no matter what you and I say or tell them, they wouldn't listen. :)

Offline Beorning

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #239 on: October 05, 2014, 02:51:50 PM »
Hm. I passed what you said to the acquaintance I mentioned... and to another anti-Islamic person I know, too.

Their reply was to quoto a genuine Islamic website that said that praying for non-Muslims is forbidden... How do I discuss with that?

Also, they say that when you and Formless say that ISIS is un-Islamic for killing people, you're actually openly deceiving me to make me believe that Islam is peaceful... Also, they say that Muslims only condemn ISIS, because ISIS kill other Muslims. They say that according to Islam, killing non-Muslims is okay and Muslims don't bother with it.

How do I discuss with that..?  :-\

Online DarkAngel111

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #240 on: October 05, 2014, 02:56:23 PM »
If I am going to turn down everything a christian says by saying they are lying, then there is no point in discussing.

Like I said, If someone is not willing to discuss it, there is no point in explaining it to them.

Your friends have their mind set on something, its not my place to change their beliefs or even try.

Oh and do give me a link to that site which says that, because I would like to remind them a few things too :)

Offline Blythe

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #241 on: October 05, 2014, 02:56:58 PM »
How do I discuss with that..?  :-\

Truthfully, Beorning, it sounds like that person is not really open to an actual discussion. It sounds like they have already made up their minds to a degree where they are not interested in discussion. As such, I think Dark Angel's above quote probably applies:

But if someone is hellbent on not believing something no matter what you and I say or tell them, they wouldn't listen. :)

I'm not sure you would be able to have a discussion with them about it that would be fruitful, so I think Dark Angel's words here are fairly apt.

Offline Beorning

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #242 on: October 05, 2014, 03:02:19 PM »
If I am going to turn down everything a christian says by saying they are lying, then there is no point in discussing.

They say that all these anti-ISIS things Muslims say? It's PR and propaganda. They say that Muslims noticed that ISIS activities make it hard for them to live among Christians, so now Muslims are putting up a nice face and lie that they condemn ISIS...

Online DarkAngel111

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #243 on: October 05, 2014, 03:07:11 PM »
That could be true for western countries where muslims are a minority,

But for places like pakistan, how can you say they want to put up a nice face?.

Praying in mosques, where there is no christians?.

Sounds a bit ridiculous if you think about it.

Offline Kythia

  • Noooo-one Fights like Kythia no-one bites like Kythia
  • Dame
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Gender: Female
  • No one chain smokes Marlboro lights like Kythia
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #244 on: October 05, 2014, 03:41:20 PM »
They say that all these anti-ISIS things Muslims say? It's PR and propaganda. They say that Muslims noticed that ISIS activities make it hard for them to live among Christians, so now Muslims are putting up a nice face and lie that they condemn ISIS...

Also...so I'm a Muslim, I support ISIS but I don't want you infidels to know.  So I condemn them publicly.  How do ISIS know that I'm just doing that for PR?  Do I have some sort of secret Muslim codeword I use in my condemnations so people know its not real, or do we all maybe meet up in secret tunnels under the earth so I can say "Sorry about all the condemning there, ISIS-dudes.  It was just for the Christians, you know you guys are cool with me".

When I condemn ISIS for PR purposes, how do they - ISIS-  know that's what I'm doing? 

Honestly, your friend doesn't seem to have thought this through.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #245 on: October 05, 2014, 04:09:18 PM »
I did say I bow out of the discussion. This post is meant to clarify Beoring's inquiry.


If you ask a Sheik ( Imam as some would call them. ) They would cite the verse that says ( And now that you've had the knowledge about thine faith , thine end is at hell , would you pray for them? ) Which means , no you cannot pray for them.

However , Mohammad's uncle himself ' Abo Talib ' was a heathen. Yet he treated Mohammad much better than the rest of Quraish. And when he was dead , it was told that Mohammad asked Gabriel if he can pray for him. And Gabriel said that God will offer him the Least punishment in hell.

So what do you conclude from this? I myself think that I can pray for whomever I want , and it is god's will to hear my prayer and treat the person I've prayed for however he wish. I simply expressed my bond towards that person. And we can have a bond with anyone regardless of faith. Be it a person from another faith or a person who is just human.

And I'd finally add Mohammad's Hadith about the ' Rule of Intentions '.

" Deeds count for their intentions. If one's intention when they migrate to be with God and His prophet. Then that is what his Migration will be for. If one's intention to be for a fortune or a life to live, then that is what his migration will be for. And if it was for a woman he wishes to be with , then that is what his migration will be for. "

A man can do something and though it may seem evil , god accounts for the intention of that deed. But that is the greatest grey area in Islam so ... Take it as you see it.

But wait, Muhammad could also have more wives than any other Muslim iirc. Isn't it said in the Quran or one of the Hadiths that your average Muslim can have 4 wives, assuming he can provide for them both financially and emotionally, while Muhammad could have many more? The guy has always had more privileges. But correct me if I'm wrong.

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #246 on: October 05, 2014, 04:11:20 PM »
While I agree with the others that saying "Islam is a violent religion" is a very incorrect statement, one may be able to make the case that sociocultural factors associated (not directly) with the religion may give off this impression.

Beorning, you may be interested in looking through this Pew Research Survey on Muslims around the world:

There are some interesting statistics there for discussion.  Some that I found pretty interesting just through the first couple of pages were:

Quote
[Among US Muslims] 81% say [suicide bombings and other forms of violence] are never justified, while fewer than one-in-ten say violence against civilians either is often justified (1%) or is sometimes justified (7%) to defend Islam.
Quote
In South Asia, high percentages in all the countries surveyed support making sharia the official law, including nearly universal support among Muslims in Afghanistan (99%). More than eight-in-ten Muslims in Pakistan (84%) and Bangladesh (82%) also hold this view.

Offline Formless

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #247 on: October 05, 2014, 04:37:26 PM »
But wait, Muhammad could also have more wives than any other Muslim iirc. Isn't it said in the Quran or one of the Hadiths that your average Muslim can have 4 wives, assuming he can provide for them both financially and emotionally, while Muhammad could have many more? The guy has always had more privileges. But correct me if I'm wrong.

He did have more than 4 wives at the same time , and he does have more privileges. To Muslims , he is the Prophet , and he is more deserving than any other Muslim.

Hypocritical? Indeed. But to us Muslims , every marriage he had contained a moral lesson. And may I add that he also married a Jewish woman.

One thing I'll need to add , I am not here to justify the Prophet's actions or any other person claiming to be a Muslim. I'm just providing facts and answers to mere questions.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #248 on: October 05, 2014, 05:54:06 PM »
While I agree with the others that saying "Islam is a violent religion" is a very incorrect statement, one may be able to make the case that sociocultural factors associated (not directly) with the religion may give off this impression.

Beorning, you may be interested in looking through this Pew Research Survey on Muslims around the world:

There are some interesting statistics there for discussion.  Some that I found pretty interesting just through the first couple of pages were:


Quote
Few U.S. Muslims voice support for suicide bombing or other forms of violence against civilians in the name of Islam; 81% say such acts are never justified, while fewer than one-in-ten say violence against civilians either is often justified (1%) or is sometimes justified (7%) to defend Islam. Around the world, most Muslims also reject suicide bombing and other attacks against civilians. However, substantial minorities in several countries say such acts of violence are at least sometimes justified, including 26% of Muslims in Bangladesh, 29% in Egypt, 39% in Afghanistan and 40% in the Palestinian territories.

'Substantial minorities'. There's a politically correct term for you if there ever was one.

There's about 31-32 million people living in Afghanistan. That means about 12,4-12,8 million people are still pro violence in some cases. And according to wikipedia, about 90% of Muslims, which is basically everybody living there, are Sunni muslims. And Sunni is considered to be the most peaceful and liberal school of Islam.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/afghanistan-population/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Afghanistan

Add about another 27 million something from Bangladesh(151k population, 90% muslim, 26% supporters).

Those minorities make up millions. Not saying they're terrorists. It doesn't really say much. Perhaps they think violence is justified when Muslims are oppressed like they were during Muhammad's time, in which case they'd be doing what Muhammad did, which is completely justified and encouraged by the Quran. Muhammad was the perfect human being and all Muslims strive to be like him. But doesn't that mean that the current extremist Islamists already have a reason to behead and cut fingers since some Muslims in some parts of the world are in fact oppressed one way or another? Comes back to the question- who is to say they're not following their Quran despite being the minority? All the verses I quoted before would become applicable today as soon as some warlords and Imams with lots of followers convinced them that the US and Europe are the devil who seek to oppress Muslims and repeat history, and thus can be killed, lied to, tortured, and so forth.

That's basically those anti-muslim videos on YT in a nutshell that show some Muslim in power agitating his people against the West with a heated speech.

Hypothetically speaking, if the history was to repeat itself, would the violence against non-believers be justified?

Also, concerning history, are there any countries that Muslims conquered until this very day that didn't convert almost wholly to Islam after?

He did have more than 4 wives at the same time , and he does have more privileges. To Muslims , he is the Prophet , and he is more deserving than any other Muslim.

Hypocritical? Indeed. But to us Muslims , every marriage he had contained a moral lesson. And may I add that he also married a Jewish woman.

One thing I'll need to add , I am not here to justify the Prophet's actions or any other person claiming to be a Muslim. I'm just providing facts and answers to mere questions.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm just trying to say that Muhammad could get away with a bit more than your average Muslim. And since he prayed for his own uncle it just struck me as a slight case of nepotism.

But what is the moral lesson behind his marriage with Aisha? Iirc, she was six years old when he married her, and nine when he consummated the marriage. And according to the Quran only two consenting adults can marry.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #249 on: October 05, 2014, 06:30:27 PM »
'Substantial minorities'. There's a politically correct term for you if there ever was one.

It's an entirely accurate term. It's not a majority. It's not a plurality. It's a minority - but it's a large one.

That said, without knowing which questions were asked, these numbers are more or less useless. So I tracked down the questionnaire ( Appendix D, page 13 of the survey website ). Apparently, the question asked was:

Quote
"Some people think that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies... Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is ... [ often justified, sometimes justified, rarely justified, never justified, etc. ]"

Only 40% actually responded that it was never justified. 18% said 'rarely justified', 21% 'sometimes justified' and 18% 'often justified'. The rest did not answer.

It seems fair to question the validity of those findings, though. 'Defense' of Islam from 'enemies' is explicit in the question. I haven't studied statistics very heavily, but this seems to me to be a problematic wording. It implies a sort of known result, a known, positive outcome - 'defense', as a response to some implied attack by an 'enemy'.

It should also be mentioned that when the survey refers to 'South Asia', it's referring to Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. Which makes sense in a survey of countries with a muslim majority, but it actually leaves out most muslims in the area ( the roughly 180 million in India, for instance - according to Wikipedia ).

In a slightly related question, what's a 'civilian' anyway? Would a military contractor count as a civilian?

Also, concerning history, are there any countries that Muslims conquered until this very day that didn't convert almost wholly to Islam after?

Well, Hungary was under mostly Ottoman rule between 1541 and 1699. Southern and central Hungary were annexed by the Ottoman Empire, Northern Hungary kept by the Habsburgs, and Eastern Hungary ( the Principality of Transylvania ) was ... weird.