WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[Revelation]

You may want to take a look and see if you can get the Boarding Patrol box for Orks anywhere, since most of the boarding patrol boxes are meant to be for small skirmish matches.

[Andol]

Oh, I'm not anticipating anything truly simple from GW, it's just what they're saying is all. I'm sure the game will get more complicated with every codex release.

Not going to lie... I am someone who enjoys a little rules bloat... 

[Norwegian One]

I remember missing the adaptability of upgrades for the Tyranids from the 4th edition. From 5th edition, they took away a lot of the options.

[Ollumhammersong]

It's the fun cycle of gamer expectations and demands. We want cool and powerful Faction specific rules for every race and even some individual unit if possible. But we don't want too many rules. And we don't want it to get unbalanced even though this game is too asymmetrical with too many factions for that to ever be possible.

People will praise the new simplified rules for awhile, then get bored and demand something more complex, then get confused and angry and demand something simpler. And the cycle of editions will continue.

[Inkidu]

It's the fun cycle of gamer expectations and demands. We want cool and powerful Faction specific rules for every race and even some individual unit if possible. But we don't want too many rules. And we don't want it to get unbalanced even though this game is too asymmetrical with too many factions for that to ever be possible.

People will praise the new simplified rules for awhile, then get bored and demand something more complex, then get confused and angry and demand something simpler. And the cycle of editions will continue.

From what it seems like to me by commentary from 4OKtubers is that GW wants to generally make it easier for them to put in rules patches and updates, hopefully leaving fewer factions fallow.

[Ollumhammersong]

Sure, but it's already easy to patch the game, that is always the goal of a new edition to patch problems. They've been doing it for years now with semi-annual and quarterly updates, They just haven't been doing a great job of it. That likely wont change with a new edition. 

As for some factions sucking or dominating, well ya. In a game with 23 factions (assuming you don't split up marines into separate chapters) and each faction is supposed to have it's flair and it's unique way to play, and roughly 1000 unit datasheets between them, it's impossible to balance. Not that they shouldn't try but a nirvana state of true perfect faction balance is never going to happen in a game this asymmetrical.

[TheGlyphstone]

They are, at least, willing to make corrections mid-stream to weaken over-dominant lists, though all that really does in the end is let another faction take its turn at the top of the hill. Since true balance is impossible, that[s probably the closest we'll ever get, and at least it shows they're trying even if the job is Sisyphean in nature.

[Revelation]

Balance seems to be kinda weird, at least in the most recent edition. Most top winners are a total sweep from what I've noticed in lists from various armies. Can't say I know the balance intricately, but I do hope that there isn't (too much) power creep.

Also, as goofy as the paragon warsuits for sisters are, I hope they get some buffs/changes. I want to like them but wew lad they are one of Sisters most expensive units but do not perform that way.

[Andol]

Hmmm I have actually had a different experience with the paragon warsuits... how are you running them? I think it is just more positioning them to take out the proper targets as yeah they can be squishy like most sister units, but if you need something wiped off the board and give them the rerolls from Vhal... they put in work.

I am just glad balance wise that we are finally seeing a Demon Primarch in top tournament list. I am sure it is because of his revive ability, but my boy Angron be putting in work.

[Revelation]

Hmmm I have actually had a different experience with the paragon warsuits... how are you running them? I think it is just more positioning them to take out the proper targets as yeah they can be squishy like most sister units, but if you need something wiped off the board and give them the rerolls from Vhal... they put in work.

I am just glad balance wise that we are finally seeing a Demon Primarch in top tournament list. I am sure it is because of his revive ability, but my boy Angron be putting in work.

I've only been playing 1k pt games so I am admittedly not running Vahl. I'm running Valorous heart for now, and even with VH's ability it feels like they get focus fired pretty hard. Of course that could be 1k games being jank. Maybe they'd do better in BR with Vahl and BR buffs? Most discussion from what I've seen online for warsuits seems to go along with them being underperforming point wise, and I admit 240 pts (Running them with Multi meltas) is a big investment.

[Andol]

Run them with Vhal in Ebon Chalice which gives you a ton more miracle dice control. Run a single squad in a 2000 point game or if you are feeling spicy then run two and you can use them as guards for Vhal and advance up the felid fast as a kill bubble I have even dropped Celestine in there for support a few times. Run her and Vhal usually in my 2000 point list, because they are both so good. With proper cover they can be tough nuts to crack... but they are worth it and don't die as fast as Retributors.

[Ollumhammersong]

I've only been playing 1k pt games so I am admittedly not running Vahl. I'm running Valorous heart for now, and even with VH's ability it feels like they get focus fired pretty hard. Of course that could be 1k games being jank. Maybe they'd do better in BR with Vahl and BR buffs? Most discussion from what I've seen online for warsuits seems to go along with them being underperforming point wise, and I admit 240 pts (Running them with Multi meltas) is a big investment.

Ya, warsuits are too much of a point sync for a 1k game, And they've always been in an odd place metawise. At that size of game it's not so much, "are these worth 240p", but "are they worth a quarter of my entire army?" You can build around them but you really have to build around them. They aren't the kind of unit you can just slot into your army, you need to have a plan to buff them and sink some CP. Otherwise they're just overly expensive heavy infantry without the increased survivability/invuln saves that typically come with that.

and at 4 wounds only one moderately successful melta or lascannon shot takes them down. Super cool idea for a unit, hopefully 10th makes them more durable, either more wounds or a better base invuln save. Because right now even a squad of termies is harder to shift off the board despite warsuits having more wounds, extra toughness and that -1 damage. That base 6++ really sucks to rely on

[Inkidu]

So, this is going to sound weird but I'm always upset that Grey Knights always act and sound like average space marines, and I am fully aware that this is my headcanon bumping up against Grey Knights as portrayed in Dawn of War 1 and Chaos Gate: Demonhunters, but when I was first getting into the lore of 40K (which is the part I find way more interesting than the game portion) I heard about Grey Knights this group of basically a space marine's space marine who were all psychic and had been made empty vessels for the will of the Emperor. They were this cool demon hunter faction that were basically unmade even more than the average human to become a Grey Kngiht and I always pictured them as rather emotionless. As my understanding of Chaos was they fed off of emotions and the stronger the emotion the more they could feed so by being emotionally muted it allowed them to better go up against Chaos along with their religious eikons. The price for being a Grey Knight was basically everything that could make one be called a human, even more so than a regular chapter of astartes. There was no shame, there was no pride, there was no joy, there was no sadness there was only unflinching, unbreaking duty. The sheer adamantine wall of a singular sole focus. They didn't evil feel hatred for the things they expunged because that would acknowledge them as something worth the effort of hating.

So finding out Grey Knights are just a Space Marine chapter but they're all psychic and unbreakable but give up nothing else and are otherwise just less interestingly painted spees mahreens will forever bum me out with their playground one-upmanship.  Like seriously the leader of the Gray Knights of the Chaos Gate Demonhunters game hates Khorne especially. Yeah... let's hate the embodiment of wrath. This can only go well. That's kind of like finding out a farmer has contempt for the wheat he has to scythe.

le sigh.

Thanks for letting me complain about this thing I never get to complain about.

[greenknight]

According the Rogue Trader-era Realms of Chaos, they are regularly memory wiped (instead of being summarily executed "prophylactically euthanized", like guardsmen and even other space marines) after their battles with chaos, so that's something, I guess.

[Ollumhammersong]

That's about right. If you haven't read the grey knights novels by Ben Counter you should. The protagonist is a Justicar and it's a really cool trilogy that dives into demonic lore, summoning and whatnot. But it humanizes the grey knight characters pretty well.

They go through some hardcore shit to get to where they are, but their training never forces them to become emotionless robots. Chapters with the qualities you're talking about already exist, namely the iron hands and their successors. Grey Knight training more accurately let's them control those emotions a lot better than most and their mental discipline and defense is so high that lesser demons will literally recoil and run away because when they try to touch the mind of a grey knight to feed on said emotions it's like grabbing the business end of a lit torch. Even greater demons can't pierce their mental shields. So even though they channel hate and wrath like any other space marine they actually don't end up feeding the warp. The only known way to disable a grey knight's mental defense is to slap on a collar of Khorne, and actually capturing a Grey knight alive to do that has only happened once in lore.

Unlike most space marines who know what world they came from and even have some memories of what their life and family was like before they were selected. Grey knights are totally mind wiped so they have no knowledge of family or their homeworld. They don't get publicly acknowledged and even amongst other space marines their glories and victories largely go unrecorded. That's a pretty big sacrifice considering space marine chapters love and treasure both their homeworlds and battlefield glory. Hell the Blood angels literally sacrificed entire successor chapters to keep Baal from falling to the nids, Chapters respect each other based on reputation and accomplishments and the victories of any other chapter are spread across the Imperium and earn that chapter respect and clout.

Grey knights don't get that. They have the same martial pride as other space marines but don't get to bask in their victories. They don't have a collective homeworld with a unique chapter culture to rally around and take pride in, life on titan is hard and sterile even by space marine standards. They do sacrifice a lot for their status as the 'space marines of space marines'. There's even a grey knight short story called 'sacrifice' which is a fucking great story, and a bleak look into the sheer amount of resources and blood the Imperium invests just to arm a single squad of grey knights for battle.

[TheGlyphstone]

That's a good way to look at it. Grey knights don't sacrifice something important to mortal humans (emotions), they sacrifice something important to Space Marines (lineage and renown). They're as alien to other Astartes as the Astartes are to us, but in a different way.

[Beorning]

*twiddles fingers*

Okay, so... what do you guys think of the new edition of WH40K..?

I may be mistaken, but from what I glimpsed, it looks really dumbed down :(

[Revelation]

I've only played one or two games myself so I am no expert.

To me the game feels a bit too simplified in some aspects, and other aspects still feel a bit complicated. I like how they said they were gonna reduce rerolls whereas I feel the opposite happened. Still too many rerolls.

I also think some point balances feel out of whack (Speaking mostly on Sisters of Battle). Also it feels like a lot of things got tougher, while some tools to kill said tougher things either got removed or simply nerfed. I'm not too sure why they took a machete to multi meltas for example. I've had serious issues cutting through armor with my ladies. Also feel like some things got hit pretty hard. I have no reason to take sacresancts and/or a Canoness unless I really feel like getting them shot off the board before they can do anything.

Of course, this really is just the beginning of 10th and things could change radically in 6 months.

[Beorning]

I really hope the coming codexes will give some options for faction customization. At this point, there seems to be no way of creative diverse SM chapters / AS orders / Drukhari cabals etc...

Also... am I weird not to like the fact that different loadouts have the same point cost? Some of them are objectively better, correct? I think it's always been this way... But now, they are costs the same... Huh.

Oh, and fixed squad sizes need to go. We should still be able to increase the squads by individual troopers, not by batches. Especially as, previously, some armies didn't squad boxes conforming to the 5 / 10 / 20 scheme. My Death Guard have three squads of 7 Plague Marines... what am I supposed to do with them now? :(

Final complaint: the core rulebook doesn't explain the various modes of play... It only gives the core rules plus some brief rules for the Combat Patrol mode... but it doesn't even list combat patrols lineups for individual factions... where the heck am I supposed to find that info? The Crusade mode has been ported into a separate book... which could work... but that book seems to be tied to the Tyrannic War. So, are the missions there Tyranid-centric? Plus, this separate book is expensive... and yet, it wastes space on repeated the core rules...

And the advanced rules have all been ported to Chapter Approved... which I fear, because if they are going to be published in the same format as General's Handbook, then I'll be literally unable to read them :((

I know, I complain, but I'm confused...

[Numerion]

I really hope the coming codexes will give some options for faction customization. At this point, there seems to be no way of creative diverse SM chapters / AS orders / Drukhari cabals etc...

thats the announced plan, yes. The codexes will give strategem options and passive bonuses.

Also... am I weird not to like the fact that different loadouts have the same point cost? Some of them are objectively better, correct? I think it's always been this way... But now, they are costs the same... Huh.

They shouldn't be straight upgrades, they should be choices. Except for the "1 in X models can have this weapon" kinda thing. And since they should be options, they make sense to be same points.

Oh, and fixed squad sizes need to go. We should still be able to increase the squads by individual troopers, not by batches. Especially as, previously, some armies didn't squad boxes conforming to the 5 / 10 / 20 scheme. My Death Guard have three squads of 7 Plague Marines... what am I supposed to do with them now? :(

squad sizes and weapon points are this way to put it in line with AoS's easier listbuilding. I do wish they'd allow SOMETHING this direction but I get where they are coming from as the listbuilding can be overwhelming for a new person. But it does feel bad to have 1980 points and being unable to do anything about it.

Final complaint: the core rulebook doesn't explain the various modes of play... It only gives the core rules plus some brief rules for the Combat Patrol mode... but it doesn't even list combat patrols lineups for individual factions... where the heck am I supposed to find that info? The Crusade mode has been ported into a separate book... which could work... but that book seems to be tied to the Tyrannic War. So, are the missions there Tyranid-centric? Plus, this separate book is expensive... and yet, it wastes space on repeated the core rules...

Yeah this is info that will move into "seasonal" books. Core rules being free means "demo" version essentially. Though we are at the very beginning, we will still see.

And the advanced rules have all been ported to Chapter Approved... which I fear, because if they are going to be published in the same format as General's Handbook, then I'll be literally unable to read them :((

🎶 Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum 🎶



That said, I still didnt get a game in so I expect loads of my own confusion to arrive when I do :) It just do be that way.

[Andol]

squad sizes and weapon points are this way to put it in line with AoS's easier listbuilding. I do wish they'd allow SOMETHING this direction but I get where they are coming from as the listbuilding can be overwhelming for a new person. But it does feel bad to have 1980 points and being unable to do anything about it.

The problem is that it doesn't make it easier. I play World Eaters. It took me weeks to find a army build that wasn't missing 100 or more points that was remotely good. It is very very limiting and for some factions because they have less choices in the units they have... for someone with a limited budget... you are completely screwed when it comes to list building a lot leaving you at a disadvantage on the battlefield.

[TheLaughingOne]

My question is will they release the boxes inbthese set model sizes, or will they have more (or more likely) less models so you always have to buy more and end up with an unused excess?

[Andol]

My question is will they release the boxes inbthese set model sizes, or will they have more (or more likely) less models so you always have to buy more and end up with an unused excess?

GW is known for being very money hungry they will do it in a way that you have to buy more boxes to get everything you need.

[TheLaughingOne]

Yeah. Wasnt really much of a question i suppose.

[greenknight]

My question is will they release the boxes inbthese set model sizes, or will they have more (or more likely) less models so you always have to buy more and end up with an unused excess?

GW is known for being very money hungry they will do it in a way that you have to buy more boxes to get everything you need.

I wonder if a false advertising class action suit could succeed based on rules stating Unit A consists of X or Y models but the kit only includes Z models. False advertising based on the number Z isn't X or Y, so it is clearly not Unit A even though it is the only kit in the catalog named such.