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Author Topic: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.  (Read 35284 times)

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Offline Wajin

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #300 on: March 14, 2015, 11:09:03 AM »
That's nice to hear. ;D

Sadly if this happened in my country it'll cause way too much uproar. ::)

I think the fact that she's raised by two apostate men who are married to one another would cause more of an uproar :P

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #301 on: March 14, 2015, 01:18:42 PM »
Questions: Wahhabism and Salafi Islam

Edit: This thread is getting long enough to the point that I realize earlier questions have been answered.  So I needed to edit my post to ask about other stuff.  I realize that earlier two posters came into disagreement on the movement's history, so I hope that I'm not re-opening anything.

Checking the Wikipedia entry on Wahhabism mentioned that the term is considered derogatory by many practitioners, who use the term Salafi instead.

But the Wikipedia entry page for Salafism hints that it might be a form or variation off of original Wahhabism, basically more modern (post-1960s) movements incorporating elements of the original doctrines:

Quote
The Salafi movement is often described as synonymous with Wahhabism, but Salafis consider the term "Wahhabi" derogatory.[4]At other times, Salafism has been described as a hybrid of Wahhabism and other post-1960s movements.

So if Salafism does borrow elements from Wahhabism, then how did the term "Wahhabist" become derogatory?  The sourced quote mentions that on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border opponents of Salafis referred to them as Wahhabis.  But the Wikipedia page earlier mentions that most Saudis identify as "Wahhabi," with the rest "Salafi."  So to me it seems that the term is not derogatory so much as it betrays lack of ignorance between two separate groups in Saudi Arabia, one of whom still uses the term.  But over in Pakistan and Afghanistan it is derogatory due to the morphing of the phrase into a slur by enemies.  Considering both groups' prominence in Saudi Arabia, I'm wondering how the conflicts in two other countries crept back over to Saudi Salafis.

However, the contemporary entry on Salafism in Wikipedia mentions that they consider the term derogatory because it implies they founded a new school of thought rather than returning to earlier Islamic principles.  This last part is not sourced and has a [citation needed] quote.  Is this an accurate viewpoint among Salafis?


Edit: Qu'ranic Literalism Questions

In regards to Formless' last response about the peculiarities of classical Arabic and word choices, I was wondering if there has been any significant "Qu'ranic Literalist" movements in Islam's history similar to Biblical Literalism among Protestant Christian sects.

Basically, Biblical Literalism holds that there are no parables or metaphors within the Bible, that all of the statements are meant to be taken literally.  Has there been anything like this among Muslims with the Qu'ran to the point where the idea gained a lot of popularity and influence?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 01:53:28 PM by Skynet »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #302 on: March 14, 2015, 03:25:10 PM »
This is how I explained the difference between Salafism and Wahhabism in an earlier post.

Honestly , I have no idea how Salafis suddenly became a different definition to the same group.

As the link you provided stated. Salafi refers to the first & second generations of Muslims. So following their example means you're following Islam. So basically any Sunni is a Salafi. They may differ in minor practices as mentioned in a earlier post. Since during the Abbasy rule , four Islamic schools ( sects? ) were formed , but ultimately they follow the same basics.

A salafi may be different from a Shi'ah. But the difference isn't significant , except for the Shi'ah believing Ali should've been the Prophet.

Wahhabism ... It just refers to the man who allied himself with the Saud family to conquer most of the Arabian Peninsula under one islamic rule. The Saudis fortified their cause by having Mohammed Abdulwahhab as their preacher and religious figure. Yet he himself is a Salafi. He didn't add anything to Islam ... He simply brought back the teachings when the land was slowly losing its religious influence over the people. ( People worshipping tombs and idols. Or flat out religiousless. )

So I really don't understand why did anyone separate these two terms. Why even call it Wahhabism when its the Same as Salafi , and same as Sunni. But that's how I see it.

Now as to the religious situation in Pakistan/Afghanistan ... I'm not that informed about it.

But from a religious view point , there is no difference or any sense of derogatory in both of them. Since even Salafism is a term invented by the second generation of Muslims. Wahhabism was just a label used during a politically unstable era.

This is where I should end my involvement with this issue. How other parties perceive or interpret a label is their own business. ( And the whole world is full of people who are ready to growl and cry at the mention of mere words. ) As I said as my own opinion from a religious perspective. There isn't anything offensive or derogatory about both terms. And it is always best for a Muslim to just be a Muslim , and nothing more or less.

Edit: Qu'ranic Literalism Questions

In regards to Formless' last response about the peculiarities of classical Arabic and word choices, I was wondering if there has been any significant "Qu'ranic Literalist" movements in Islam's history similar to Biblical Literalism among Protestant Christian sects.

Basically, Biblical Literalism holds that there are no parables or metaphors within the Bible, that all of the statements are meant to be taken literally.  Has there been anything like this among Muslims with the Qu'ran to the point where the idea gained a lot of popularity and influence?

I don't think there is a sect or a group that takes the whole Qur'an into absolute literalism.

But a strong example of how some take the part that suits their agenda into critical literalism would be , ISIS or Al-Qaeda. They take a few verses and says that they are fulfilling those verses , but they ignore the rest of the verses that conflict with what they're doing.

However , it is punishable if someone twists the words of Qur'an for immoral reasons. Though that only happened during the early days after the prophet's death.

I guess Qur'an is absolute to Muslims. But as a whole and not as a part or a notion.

I hope this answers the questions?

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #303 on: March 14, 2015, 10:24:50 PM »
I hope this answers the questions?

Informative as usual.  Keep up the good work! :-)

Questions: Free will versus determinism

Among philosophers of many cultures, there is debate over the state of the universe.  Is everything that will be, going to happen and predetermined?  Or do people have the ability to alter what will be and responsible for their own actions, not fate?

In Islamic theology, I tend to notice patterns of free will.  Human and jinn both possess free will and thus are capable of choosing to accept or reject God; Formless earlier talked about the concept of Hasanat and Say'at, that ultimately a person's deeds will determine where they'll go in the afterlife.

On the other hand, there has also been mentioned discussion of events which will be inevitable, such as Yawm ad-Dīn (Day of Judgment).

I don't know if this question is too broad, but does the Qu'ran and Muslim traditions lean strongly one way or the other in regards to how the future of the universe will play out?  And whether the fate of people and their deeds are to be, or rather could be?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 10:26:59 PM by Skynet »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #304 on: March 15, 2015, 06:41:02 AM »
A Muslim has free will. But his free will is as free as God allows it.

Meaning , we believe that we can do whatever we want , but whatever we do is already predetermined.

God created this world and has already predetermined everything that will happen in it.

This is a cause of debate among many Muslims. ( Heck it was one of the reasons I was almost whipped back during my highschool days because I asked the simple question of ' what was there before God created the universe? ' )

See , the cause of debate and controversy would be ... If God has already determined everything in this world , then what was the point of assuming that someone has free will. And if God created humans and can determine the future , then what was the point of giving them a choice to worship him. The same question would be if God let someone be born in a place in the world where they never heard of Islam , and if someone isn't a Muslim they will go to hell , so what is the point of creating those humans if they will not even have a chance to even convert back in the day.

The way I see it. God willed everything in this world. And my will is willed by god. ( If that makes any sense. ) In the Qur'an it is said that God created the universe and has already determined everything that will happen to it till the end of time.

Hope this answer your question.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #305 on: March 22, 2015, 09:00:07 PM »
I notice that halal restrictions mostly cover various kinds of meat.  Aside from alcoholic beverages, are there any haram foodstuffs which are non-meat?

Let's say if a vegan converted to Islam and still kept up their diet, are there any foods they'd need to worry about?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 09:01:59 PM by Skynet »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #306 on: March 22, 2015, 10:04:36 PM »
Muslims are allowed to eat anything , except :

- Ham or Pork.
- Bugs or insects. ( Except Grasshoppers. )
- Amphibians. ( Though there is a bit of an argument about frogs. )
- Birds of Prey.
- Predators of any kind.
- Alcohol. ( Although in the very earliest years of the Prophet's prophecy , it was allowed. But it was prohibited later on. )

So a vegan would very much remain on the same diet if he converts. ;D

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #307 on: March 23, 2015, 01:35:18 AM »
The Prophet Muhammad's Descendants: 

Are there any known descendants around today and are public figures?  What are they doing?

Green Turbans and the Hajj:

Back in the 19th century, a British explorer named Richard Francis Burton was notable for translating 1,001 Arabian Nights and his many journeys in Asia.  During his travels it is mentioned that folk in the Arab world who completed a pilgrimage to Mecca often wore green turbans to signify this momentous accomplishment.

How prevalent is this garment tradition?  Is it still practiced today?  Are there any other reliable accounts on this other than Sir Burton?

I couldn't find any reliable mention elsewhere on the Internet.  Wikipedia's entry on the Hajj makes no mention of a green turban, and the Wikipedia article on the cloth itself mentioned no religious connotation.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 01:36:24 AM by Skynet »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #308 on: March 23, 2015, 08:16:02 AM »
The Prophet Muhammad's Descendants: 

Are there any known descendants around today and are public figures?  What are they doing?

Nope. His lineage ended with the death of his daughters.

Green Turbans and the Hajj:

Back in the 19th century, a British explorer named Richard Francis Burton was notable for translating 1,001 Arabian Nights and his many journeys in Asia.  During his travels it is mentioned that folk in the Arab world who completed a pilgrimage to Mecca often wore green turbans to signify this momentous accomplishment.

How prevalent is this garment tradition?  Is it still practiced today?  Are there any other reliable accounts on this other than Sir Burton?

I couldn't find any reliable mention elsewhere on the Internet.  Wikipedia's entry on the Hajj makes no mention of a green turban, and the Wikipedia article on the cloth itself mentioned no religious connotation.

This sounds like a foreign practice. Nothing in Islam says anything about any dress code if someone accomplishes the Hajj. I mean no one in my country did it. ;D

Offline elone

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #309 on: March 25, 2015, 11:30:08 PM »
I thought that his daughter Fatima had 5 children, one of whom died.

from this website. http://www.questionsonislam.com/question/can-you-give-some-information-about-children-prophet-muhammad-pbuh

"It was Fatima who continued the lineage of the Prophet. Fatima had five children: Hasan, Husayn, Muhsin, Ummu Kulthum, and Zaynab. Among them Muhsin passed away as a child. "

Is there controversy over how many children The Prophet had or about his descendants?

Just curious.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #310 on: March 26, 2015, 10:38:02 AM »
There isn't a reliable record that states of Fatima's children continued the lineage.

And I myself do think so , because if they did , I believe they would've created some historical impact back in the day.

There's also another way to look at it. Since in Islamic traditions ( And sometimes Arabic countries ) , The sons carry the name of their father. And Fatima was married to Ali. Ali's full name is " Ali Ibn Abi Talib Ibn Abdulmutalib".

Some historians did say that Fatima's children carried on their lineage , but under their father's name and not the Prophet's.

I myself just cannot see it true though. Carrying the Prophet lineage would at least ( in theworst case scenario ) would provoke someone to exploit that lineage to their own gains , which didn't happen except for the Hasan and Hussien , who didn't do much in their time.

There's also a weak Hadith traced back to the Prophet himself which says ' I am the leader of humans and my name shall last til the day of judgment. '

But seeing as the Prophet himself did not have any direct sons that survived past the age of ten makes you wonder how true is that hadith.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #311 on: March 28, 2015, 11:15:30 PM »
Found this on Saladin Ahmed's Twitter.  An 1893 illustration of Mecca:



Were the roads around the Kaaba actually blue at that time?  Are they still that way now?

I tried Google image-searching that area, but all the pictures are crowded full of people to the point that the ground cannot be seen.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 11:17:12 PM by Skynet »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #312 on: March 29, 2015, 10:41:13 AM »
I haven't been to the mosque after the recent expansion to it.

However , never in any of my visits was there any blue-tiled lines at the center of the mosque as depicted in that image. I'm not sure if back then there was ... And none of the elderly I asked confirmed it. It was always white. So I'm not sure about back then.  ???

And these are a couple of recent images. Just not too recent.




Offline Kythia

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #313 on: March 29, 2015, 12:34:12 PM »
I haven't been to the mosque after the recent expansion to it.

Out of curiosity. have you been on pilgrimage?  My apologies if that question moves the conversation in to more personal ground.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #314 on: March 29, 2015, 12:50:31 PM »
Indeed I have. I did the Hajj and the Omrah.

I also once volunteered as a medical professional one year during the Hajj.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #315 on: March 29, 2015, 12:56:12 PM »

There's also a weak Hadith traced back to the Prophet himself which says ' I am the leader of humans and my name shall last til the day of judgment. '

But seeing as the Prophet himself did not have any direct sons that survived past the age of ten makes you wonder how true is that hadith.


  Why would that mean his bloodline would survive? His name is (so far) lasting, and looks to last until judgment day. Unless I am missing something, I don't see why the hadith you mention means he has to have living heirs of his bloodline.



 I'm not sure if this has been answered, but why is the Kaaba sacred? What makes it so?

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #316 on: March 29, 2015, 01:10:26 PM »

  Why would that mean his bloodline would survive? His name is (so far) lasting, and looks to last until judgment day. Unless I am missing something, I don't see why the hadith you mention means he has to have living heirs of his bloodline.



 I'm not sure if this has been answered, but why is the Kaaba sacred? What makes it so?

It conflicts with one of the minor signs of Judgment day.

Since it is said that Muslims will die leaving no one but the corrupt and the heatens alive.

While the prophet is still remembered , this sign clearly suggests that Islam will be nonexistent at some point in the future.

At least , this is how I see it.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #317 on: March 29, 2015, 02:30:50 PM »
 So if I have this right, as you see it, the prophet's line has to still exist for Islam to exist to judgement day?

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #318 on: March 29, 2015, 02:55:59 PM »
On the contrary. I believe that everything about Islam will come to an end at some point prior to judgment day.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #319 on: March 29, 2015, 11:32:25 PM »
On dress and grooming: I tend to see various aspects brought up in regards to the religion.  Namely, women's clothing such as niqab, burkhas, and hijabs, and whether such adornments are referenced in Islam or merely cultural traditions which get folded into the religion in local regions and are viewed as one and the same over time.

I understand that there was a Quranic verse about men speaking to Muhammed's wives behind a veil, but it sounded like the veil was a set of curtains or furniture and not an article of clothing.  Does the Qu'ran make mention of clothing akin to the niqab/burkha/hijab as proper dress?  What about hadiths?

On a related note, I notice that men in Islamic countries sport more beards on average than their counterparts in Western societies.  Is there a religious or cultural reason behind this popularity?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 11:37:47 PM by Skynet »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #320 on: March 30, 2015, 08:14:02 AM »
The Burqa , Niqab ... etc , are more of a traditional attire than a religious one. True , Qur'an specified that women should cover up from a strange man , but there nothing in specific other than to cover themselves up. Also some historians say that during the Prophet's time , women would walk about with their faces uncovered. But there is no strong proof of that.

As for men growing beards. Its more of a virtue mentioned by the Prophet , but never mentioned in Qur'an. He advised to trim the moustache , and let the beard flow. And as you can see , that's what used to be the norm , but recently , men started to wear their hair as they like. But I'd say that's the stigma left after the events of 9/11. At least this is when the change started to happen in my country. But to put it simply , some Muslims still think a longer beard is better.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #321 on: April 01, 2015, 10:56:47 PM »
Body modification: So I read an article about tattoos among the Amazigh women of Northern Africa.  Basically they have all sorts of purposes, from spiritual to clan affiliations and other abstract concepts.  It mentioned that such tattoos are mostly temporary, as permanent tattoos are considered haram in Islam.

What is the reasoning behind tattoo restrictions?  Are there also restrictions against other forms of modification, such as piercings, teeth filing, and ritual scarification, detailed in Qu'ranic verses and hadiths?


Hazarding a guess, are tattoos forbidden because most of them are picturesque in nature (often displaying people, animals, etc)?  If so, does the restriction apply just as strongly to tattoos depicting written words?

Edit: I was able to find a source explaining that tattoos are forbidden for several reasons: one, it's a willful alteration of God's creation, and because Muhammad condemned the practice.  Also condemns eyebrow-plucking and teeth filing.  It later goes on to say that there has been viewpoints in some circles that only permanent alterations are haram, meaning that things such as kohl make-up are permitted.

Is this accurate?  Is there a common consensus among Muslims for modifications not listed above, such as body piercings?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 11:07:41 PM by Skynet »

Offline GypsyRose

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #322 on: April 02, 2015, 07:21:57 AM »
I don't have a question at the present, but I did want to say that I've really enjoyed reading along with the discussions, and appreciate the time and effort put in to answer questions.

It's been very informative, and I'm sure I'm not the only one reading along mostly quietly.  :-)

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #323 on: April 02, 2015, 07:30:02 AM »
Tattoos are forbidden among Muslims due to a Hadith condemning the practice. As to why?

Some relate to how its is an alternation to god's creation , meaning you're not pleased with what god gave you. Some also relate it to using tattoos as a way to idolize another person , or another god. Which is a greater sin in Islam. There isn't a strong hadith that truly explains the reason behind the banning. So it is up to speculations. And the same goes about brows plucking. Its like a clear sign of dissatisfaction with what god given such an individual.

It is also interesting to mention how the Hadith was directed at women. Men weren't evenspoken to in that hadith so it raises some question as to what would happen if a man does so.

Lastly , teeth filling isn't forbidden. Replacing teeth with ones made out of gold for no reason other than to do so. ( Apparently it was common back then as a sign of wealth. ) But to fill your teeth with there is a need to do isn't forbidden at all. It just that it is best if the filling wasn't made of gold or silver. But if that is the only metals available at the time, then so be it. And these days everyone fills their teeth according to what their dentist suggests. So , no , teeth filling isn't forbidden.

Hope this answers the question.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #324 on: April 02, 2015, 07:32:01 AM »
I don't have a question at the present, but I did want to say that I've really enjoyed reading along with the discussions, and appreciate the time and effort put in to answer questions.

It's been very informative, and I'm sure I'm not the only one reading along mostly quietly.  :-)

I am quite happy you enjoyed the thread , Lady Briar. :-)