You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 11, 2016, 07:52:38 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.  (Read 35628 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #200 on: January 02, 2015, 05:42:51 PM »
Let's talk about Sufism.  Dervishes are ascetic members of this sect.  But in popular culture and a lot of fantasy and RPG games, the word is usually referring to a master swordsman.

As far as I can tell, real-world dervishes are not known for being warriors or being skilled with blades.  Where did this idea come from?  Did the Sufis train people to be swordsmen with any regularity?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 05:44:16 PM by Skynet »

Offline Wajin

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #201 on: January 02, 2015, 05:52:50 PM »
Let's talk about Sufism.  Dervishes are ascetic members of this sect.  But in popular culture and a lot of fantasy and RPG games, the word is usually referring to a master swordsman.

As far as I can tell, real-world dervishes are not known for being warriors or being skilled with blades.  Where did this idea come from?  Did the Sufis train people to be swordsmen with any regularity?

From what I've heard the myth comes from their connection to the Bektashi Order who were connected to the Ottoman jannisaries, but that is about it from what I know anyway. I don't know if it's correct, but it would make sence as the Bektashi were a Sufi order

Offline CountessJess

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #202 on: January 02, 2015, 06:17:50 PM »
Let's talk about Sufism.  Dervishes are ascetic members of this sect.  But in popular culture and a lot of fantasy and RPG games, the word is usually referring to a master swordsman.

As far as I can tell, real-world dervishes are not known for being warriors or being skilled with blades.  Where did this idea come from?  Did the Sufis train people to be swordsmen with any regularity?

The reason why the Dervishes are linked militarily is because their last major footnote in history is a long resistance war they fought against the British at the turn of the twentieth century, in which the Muslim Dervish forces of the 'Mad Mullah' (as he was styled by the British press) held out against British troops and constabulary for twenty years. It took the arrival of armoured cars and fighter aircraft after the First World War to finally defeat them once and for all.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #203 on: January 02, 2015, 08:35:11 PM »
Let's talk about Sufism.  Dervishes are ascetic members of this sect.  But in popular culture and a lot of fantasy and RPG games, the word is usually referring to a master swordsman.

As far as I can tell, real-world dervishes are not known for being warriors or being skilled with blades.  Where did this idea come from?  Did the Sufis train people to be swordsmen with any regularity?

To be quite honest , this is the first time I know that Dervish ( Darweesh in Arabic ) is part of the RPG realm.

Of course where I live Roleplaying , table top and everything related to those is nonexistent. There's so few who are actually interested in such.

But to answer your question , I couldn't find any real connection to Darvishes and being swords masters except what the Countess has mentioned in her post. Which I myself find quite surprising as the Sufis are usually more peaceful than any other sect in Islam. Much more peaceful even that sunnis.

Now this is my own contemplation but perhaps Dervishes are linked to swords in RPG terms because they originated from Persia. And that land is known for its rich history when it comes to swords in both crafting and usage back then. That's what I think. I just could not find anything official myself.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #204 on: January 02, 2015, 09:17:26 PM »
The term I recall specifically being used regarding 'dervish' and swordplay was that of a 'whirling dervish'.  Now, five minutes of research tells me that the 'whirling' that is associated with actual Dervishes is a type of meditative dance, but I can see a British soldier of the time commenting on a fierce sword fighter as 'whirling like a Dervish' (along the same lines as 'whirling like a top' - not that the sword fighter is actually a top or a Dervish), and that simile gradually being reduced to the metaphorical 'he was a whirling Dervish with his sword'.

Offline Kythia

  • Noooo-one Fights like Kythia no-one bites like Kythia
  • Dame
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Gender: Female
  • No one chain smokes Marlboro lights like Kythia
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #205 on: January 02, 2015, 10:06:05 PM »
Much more peaceful even that sunnis.

The Dervish State the countess refers to was a Sunni state.  I have no idea how it ended up with that name, but it seems to be just a confusion based on words if the Dervish State is the source.  Sufi dervishes being conflated with the warriors of the Dervish State.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #206 on: January 03, 2015, 09:09:24 AM »
The term I recall specifically being used regarding 'dervish' and swordplay was that of a 'whirling dervish'.  Now, five minutes of research tells me that the 'whirling' that is associated with actual Dervishes is a type of meditative dance, but I can see a British soldier of the time commenting on a fierce sword fighter as 'whirling like a Dervish' (along the same lines as 'whirling like a top' - not that the sword fighter is actually a top or a Dervish), and that simile gradually being reduced to the metaphorical 'he was a whirling Dervish with his sword'.

That's interesting.

The dance is still practiced in folklore festivities. But perhaps the analogy you mentioned Oniya, did stick around and as time goes was borrowed into other mediums.



The Dervish State the countess refers to was a Sunni state.  I have no idea how it ended up with that name, but it seems to be just a confusion based on words if the Dervish State is the source.  Sufi dervishes being conflated with the warriors of the Dervish State.

I actually looked around , and Sufis wasn't an influential sect in history. But apparently it was more prominent in Africa because it helped many to cope with the harsh living state they had. Since Sufism was basically based on giving up every delight in life to dedicate time , soul and body for the worship of god. Of course that is the traditional definition of Sufism.

Now you've got people wearing wool ( Soof in Arabic , which what the word was derived from. Soofiah. ) And indulging in everything they want. And when asked , they'd say ' I've given up my silk and velvet '.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #207 on: January 10, 2015, 01:39:50 PM »
The Wikipedia article on mosques says that an area formally designated as a mosque remains so until the Last Day, according to the Sharia.

So is a mosque more so the building itself, or the land?  What happens when a mosque building is destroyed (due to natural disasters, invading armies, etc)?  Is the land still considered a proper place of worship even if it ends up replaced with a building dedicated to another function?

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #208 on: January 10, 2015, 02:21:49 PM »
Mosques , places for Muslims to gather and pray in , are considered holy. That means , they should never be vandalized , destroyed or used for any sinful act.

Building a mosque is considered a great virtue. But it should be built somewhere suitable. Easily accessible , yet doesn't cause inconvenience. Shouldn't be built over a place that resembled a stable , toilets ... etc.

Now this is where most Muslims are divided. Its ok to rebuild a mosque when it starts to fall apart. Yet some may consider the simple act of removing a brick from a mosques wall as a absolute blasphemy.

Its ok to destroy a mosque and build another one in its very place. Yet some will consider that mockery towards god. ( They think god will protect the building and knocking down its walls is an insult to god's might. )

Also it is ok to destroy a mosque as long as you build another one in a closer location so you wouldn't put the people who attends it at a major inconvenience. And also , some may consider this as an act of infidelity for choosing to manipulate the spot where people can pray.

One thing to mention before I answer your real question Skynet. A Muslim can pray anywhere. In the desert , in a park , in his home on a plane on a ship , underwater ( if at all possible. ) As long as the ground he bows over isn't tainted by dirty matters. ( fecal matters , urine , blood. )

Now the misconception regarding Mosques should always remain as mosques once they're built does not apply to every mosque. Some think it does. But in actuality it is only meant for the Three Holy Mosques. Makka's Holy Mosque , Madinah Holy Mosque ( Also known as the Prophet's Mosque. ) And Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. These three mosques will remain mosques. The land which it was built upon was destined to remain as is. So Muslims believes as they are symbolic to the faith. Nothing should be built in their place. And if they were destroyed ( which happened to both the Aqsa mosque and the Makkah mosque ) it should be rebuilt.

My own opinion? I also believe that its alright to destroy a mosque if you're going to build another one in its place or in a nearby spot. And use that spot for something that serves the general public. It doesn't matter as long as they have a place to pray.

Hope this helps.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #209 on: January 12, 2015, 05:37:08 PM »
Thank you for your answer, Formless.  It was very informative.

Muslims of E, how many of you completed the Hajj?  What was the experience like for you?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 05:39:44 PM by Skynet »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #210 on: January 13, 2015, 08:27:35 PM »
You're very welcome.

I also would love to hear one's tale about Hajj if anyone got the chance to do it.

I myself attended the Hajj twice. Once as a Pilgrim myself and once as a medical professional enlisted to work during that time. And both experiences were completely different.

Online Vekseid

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #211 on: January 13, 2015, 09:30:04 PM »
And Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem

How do you feel about proposals for the Third Temple?

At this point, it's looking increasingly like when, rather than if.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #212 on: January 13, 2015, 09:57:44 PM »
How do you feel about proposals for the Third Temple?

At this point, it's looking increasingly like when, rather than if.

Personally? I'm not surprised or phased by that.

After all in many Hadiths it is mentioned two of the three mosques will be destroyed. The Jews ( Sons of Juda as they call them ) will destroy the Aqsa , and the " Creature " will rip the Kaa'bah from the ground. There's just no mention of how the Prophet's mosque will be destroyed.

Its been a prophecy for us so ... I don't really care about the proposals. It'll happen eventually.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #213 on: January 14, 2015, 02:22:00 AM »
Personally? I'm not surprised or phased by that.

After all in many Hadiths it is mentioned two of the three mosques will be destroyed. The Jews ( Sons of Juda as they call them ) will destroy the Aqsa , and the " Creature " will rip the Kaa'bah from the ground. There's just no mention of how the Prophet's mosque will be destroyed.

Its been a prophecy for us so ... I don't really care about the proposals. It'll happen eventually.

What do they mean by "creature?"

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #214 on: January 14, 2015, 06:25:15 AM »
Probably something along the lines of the 'Beast' from Revelations, going on the apparently prophetic nature of the sentence.  This is a wild guess on my part, though.  :-)

Offline gaggedLouise

  • Quim Queen | Collaborative juicy writer
  • Champion
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Location: Scandinavia
  • Gender: Female
  • Bound, gagged and unarmed but still dangerous.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #215 on: January 14, 2015, 07:17:48 AM »
It's hard to imagine a building project that would be more controversial than a Third Temple of Jerusalem - or demand higher security. Both while it was getting built and once it were opened.  ???

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #216 on: January 14, 2015, 09:12:29 AM »
What do they mean by "creature?"

Probably something along the lines of the 'Beast' from Revelations, going on the apparently prophetic nature of the sentence.  This is a wild guess on my part, though.  :-)

It is. And its not ... I guess.

There is no distinct description for it in Islam. However it is said that its like nothing a man ever laid eyes on And it can also speak in a way humans understand. And its purpose is to roam the earth , marking humans with their true faith. And  ( In a weak Hadith , it is said that it engrave one of two words upon a human's forehead. " Muslim " or " Kafir ".)

Some say it will aid Muslims in their final battle against the infidels.

But the important thing about it is that the rise of this Creature marks the begginning of the final days of humans before Judgment day.

And it is one of ten signs that accompanies it.

1- The sun rises from the west.
2- Rise of the Antichrist.
3- Descent of Christ from heaven.
4- Rise of the ' Creature '.
5- The Sky covered in smoke.
6- Rise of Gog & Magog. ( Ya'jooj & Majooj in Arabic )
7- A landslide in the east.
8- A landslide in the west.
9- A landslide in the Arabian Peninsula.
10- The gathering fire that surrounds humans and guides them to the gathering place.

They aren't supposed to happen in this order. No one really knows which one will be the first. But they say once the first sign happens , the rest will follow rapidly.

I admit that I enjoy talking about such things. But there's always conflicted sources about the truth in how these signs would happen. But everyone agrees about the names.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #217 on: January 14, 2015, 09:14:33 AM »
It's hard to imagine a building project that would be more controversial than a Third Temple of Jerusalem - or demand higher security. Both while it was getting built and once it were opened.  ???

It will cause a lot of conflict. How great this conflict will be is beyond me.

If only there's a way to have both the temple and the mosque shares the spot.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #218 on: January 14, 2015, 09:38:33 AM »
It is. And its not ... I guess.

There is no distinct description for it in Islam. However it is said that its like nothing a man ever laid eyes on And it can also speak in a way humans understand. And its purpose is to roam the earth , marking humans with their true faith. And  ( In a weak Hadith , it is said that it engrave one of two words upon a human's forehead. " Muslim " or " Kafir ".)

Some say it will aid Muslims in their final battle against the infidels.

But the important thing about it is that the rise of this Creature marks the begginning of the final days of humans before Judgment day.

And it is one of ten signs that accompanies it.

1- The sun rises from the west.
2- Rise of the Antichrist.
3- Descent of Christ from heaven.
4- Rise of the ' Creature '.
5- The Sky covered in smoke.
6- Rise of Gog & Magog. ( Ya'jooj & Majooj in Arabic )
7- A landslide in the east.
8- A landslide in the west.
9- A landslide in the Arabian Peninsula.
10- The gathering fire that surrounds humans and guides them to the gathering place.

They aren't supposed to happen in this order. No one really knows which one will be the first. But they say once the first sign happens , the rest will follow rapidly.

I admit that I enjoy talking about such things. But there's always conflicted sources about the truth in how these signs would happen. But everyone agrees about the names.

This does sound very similar to the 'End of Days' description in the Book of Revelations, especially when you include the part about engraving a 'mark' of some sort.  Although there isn't much dispute on the Christian side as far as the allegiances of the Beast, so there's a difference.

Offline gaggedLouise

  • Quim Queen | Collaborative juicy writer
  • Champion
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Location: Scandinavia
  • Gender: Female
  • Bound, gagged and unarmed but still dangerous.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #219 on: January 14, 2015, 10:28:35 AM »
It will cause a lot of conflict. How great this conflict will be is beyond me.

If only there's a way to have both the temple and the mosque shares the spot.

There is a sort of uneasy arrangement at the Graves of the Patriarchs in Hebron (al-Khalil), with some of the outlines of the deal dating back a few centuries, where Jews and Muslims were allotted different parts of the same large building complex (and us Christians were pushed to the sidelines, but okay...). Though that one has generated recent conflict too, of course - and almost no one, after the age of the Crusades, has been known to descend to the level where the actual grave caves are located. That part has been firmly off limits, much like the Holy of Holies in the Second Temple.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 10:31:53 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #220 on: January 14, 2015, 11:04:24 AM »
This does sound very similar to the 'End of Days' description in the Book of Revelations, especially when you include the part about engraving a 'mark' of some sort.  Although there isn't much dispute on the Christian side as far as the allegiances of the Beast, so there's a difference.

I see.

Perhaps heavenly religions always share the same basic ideas , just with different interpretations.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #221 on: January 14, 2015, 11:07:18 AM »
There is a sort of uneasy arrangement at the Graves of the Patriarchs in Hebron (al-Khalil), with some of the outlines of the deal dating back a few centuries, where Jews and Muslims were allotted different parts of the same large building complex (and us Christians were pushed to the sidelines, but okay...). Though that one has generated recent conflict too, of course - and almost no one, after the age of the Crusades, has been known to descend to the level where the actual grave caves are located. That part has been firmly off limits, much like the Holy of Holies in the Second Temple.

I think the thing that makes such matters extremely sensitive and delicate , is how agreeing to one side means denying the other side's religious beliefs.

Both sides won't let it down. If you say the Jews have the right to the land , then it means the mosque and whatever is being practiced in it or related to it means nothing. And if you say the Muslims have the right to the land , then it means the temple and whatever being practiced in it or related to it means nothing.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #222 on: January 14, 2015, 11:22:56 AM »
As I understand it, back before the Crusades (and even during it for a while), the people of the region acknowledged that the land was holy to all three religions, and that all three had a right to it.  This, of course, flies in the face of the 'no sharing' policy of the modern era. :P

Offline gaggedLouise

  • Quim Queen | Collaborative juicy writer
  • Champion
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Location: Scandinavia
  • Gender: Female
  • Bound, gagged and unarmed but still dangerous.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #223 on: January 14, 2015, 11:24:28 AM »
I see.

Perhaps heavenly religions always share the same basic ideas , just with different interpretations.

Gog and Magog appear as fiendish powers heralding the Apocalypse (or a final reversal, anyway) already in the Book of Ezechiel; I suppose that's how they entered the tradition of what is predicted to happen. That's during the days of the Babylonian exile of the Jews.

''
I think the thing that makes such matters extremely sensitive and delicate , is how agreeing to one side means denying the other side's religious beliefs.

Both sides won't let it down. If you say the Jews have the right to the land , then it means the mosque and whatever is being practiced in it or related to it means nothing. And if you say the Muslims have the right to the land , then it means the temple and whatever being practiced in it or related to it means nothing.

Yes, in most similar cases with just one building it hasn't had a dual function at the same time - instead it changed its function with the arrival of new rulers and a new (state) religion. The Sophia church/Ayasofya in Istanbul and the Parthenon in Athens, for example - both of them were churches for hundreds of years and then became mosques (and neither of them being formally a sacred site in the last hundred years or so). With one single building in use by different communities, neither side is going to feel fully at ease.

I certainly wouldn't want to see the two mosques that now grace the Temple Rock in Jerusalem removed or blown up. Nor would any sensible Israeli government - but clearly there are some people who would like it that way.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 11:31:52 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #224 on: January 14, 2015, 01:55:45 PM »
Yes, in most similar cases with just one building it hasn't had a dual function at the same time - instead it changed its function with the arrival of new rulers and a new (state) religion. The Sophia church/Ayasofya in Istanbul and the Parthenon in Athens, for example - both of them were churches for hundreds of years and then became mosques (and neither of them being formally a sacred site in the last hundred years or so). With one single building in use by different communities, neither side is going to feel fully at ease.

I certainly wouldn't want to see the two mosques that now grace the Temple Rock in Jerusalem removed or blown up. Nor would any sensible Israeli government - but clearly there are some people who would like it that way.

This is why I made my peace with the topic when it seems more of a power/political motive rather than a spiritual motive. As I mentioned earlier , it is been prophesied that it will be destroyed.