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Author Topic: US warships near Syrian waters  (Read 9002 times)

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Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #100 on: August 30, 2013, 01:18:59 PM »
They sound vaguely familiar.

But a lot of countries who didn't participate in the initial 'war' in Iraq and Afghanistan did help in the aftermath. I'm not sure what the reason behind that was.

France also seems willing, and with Kerry's statement just now, I think it's a matter of time before something is being done.

We, the US, have still got a problem over seas. As a serviceman who talked to folks in a variety of NATO forces and other allies. The post 9/11 military actions splashed us badly. This is an opportunity to do it RIGHT. That means a coalition. The big issue is what we,and our allies in the EU, can do to convince China and Russia to change their standing on this. Before some radical Islamic group releases sarin in THEIR territories..and don't think we are the only ones they hate.

Online Neysha

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #101 on: August 30, 2013, 01:48:39 PM »
Where exactly will the US and allies start theoretically in getting Russian support for military action against Assad?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 01:50:51 PM by Neysha »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #102 on: August 30, 2013, 01:55:23 PM »
Where exactly will the US and allies start theoretically in getting Russian support for military action against Assad?

When Obama gets to the G20 in St.Petersburg next weekend?

(no, likely not, considering that he dropped the one-on-one summit with Putin over the Snowden affair)

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #103 on: August 30, 2013, 02:02:39 PM »
We, the US, have still got a problem over seas. As a serviceman who talked to folks in a variety of NATO forces and other allies. The post 9/11 military actions splashed us badly. This is an opportunity to do it RIGHT. That means a coalition. The big issue is what we,and our allies in the EU, can do to convince China and Russia to change their standing on this. Before some radical Islamic group releases sarin in THEIR territories..and don't think we are the only ones they hate.

Everybody knows that the US did what the US had to do in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. Bush had no choice but to invade Afganistan and bring the people responsible for their actions. People who say that was a mistake are left wing extremists who walk around on woolen socks with their head stuck in somebody else's butt.
Maybe the way how it was done wasn't as pretty but the fact it was done can't be blamed.

Where was Putin when I nearly got blown up in the Moscow subway bombings. He told Chechnya to not do it again. The thing a lot of Europeans don't like about the US, is their arrogance (of some people or organizations) to claim that 'they have the right to do it'. Nobody has the right to tap into my phone and my internet. Not my own country, not my friends and definately not the CIA or whatever organization.

I think in the whole situation in Libya, the attitude of the US was alright, same in Algeria. Fact is that some presidential candidate (I believe Romney) said that the USA has a duty to protect world peace as the world's leading nation. That went down the wrong hole with a lot of people.

Back on topic though, if the US can find a coalition of forced to help the situation in Syria, they should do it and probably lead it because of the experience the US Army has. My concern is what will happen once Assad has been released from power? Because that will happen sooner or later. But what's next? Civil war? That's what the 'coalition' of forces should be careful about.

Where exactly will the US and allies start theoretically in getting Russian support for military action against Assad?

No where. Don't start.

Online Neysha

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #104 on: August 30, 2013, 03:37:38 PM »
I think in the whole situation in Libya, the attitude of the US was alright, same in Algeria. Fact is that some presidential candidate (I believe Romney) said that the USA has a duty to protect world peace as the world's leading nation. That went down the wrong hole with a lot of people.

Back on topic though, if the US can find a coalition of forced to help the situation in Syria, they should do it and probably lead it because of the experience the US Army has. My concern is what will happen once Assad has been released from power? Because that will happen sooner or later. But what's next? Civil war? That's what the 'coalition' of forces should be careful about.

Libya is part of the problem for now. Russia and China allowed (via abstention as opposed to veto) the UN to have military forces establish a no-fly zone over Libya during the Civil War and sure enough, as soon as NATO and friends went a fair bit beyond enforcing a no-fly zone and 'protecting civilians' which apparently mandated NATO and its allies to become the air force of the Libyan Rebels against Qaddafi. Russia and China weren't so happy about NATO and friends enforcing regime change in Libya and Russia (I doubt China cares either way to be honest, they're the only ones playing a neutral and pragmatic game in this) is far more sympathetic to Assad then it ever was to Qaddafi since Qaddafi was kind of nutty anyways.

And there is no coalition. Our natural 'allies' in the Middle East are fearful of the repercussions, with Saudi Arabia and Qatar amongst others preferring to sponsor and supply al-Nusra and other terrorist organizations fighting Assad as their way of 'assistance.' Unless something changes in Britain, they won't be participating. Therefore France is the only potential coalition partner to the US since Hollande has been quite strong in his condemnation of the Syrian government. But we won't know where their legislature falls until Wednesday. Italy has stated it won't get involved unless there is a UN sanction.

Quote
No where. Don't start.

Exactly.

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #105 on: August 30, 2013, 03:44:59 PM »
Libya is part of the problem for now. Russia and China allowed (via abstention as opposed to veto) the UN to have military forces establish a no-fly zone over Libya during the Civil War and sure enough, as soon as NATO and friends went a fair bit beyond enforcing a no-fly zone and 'protecting civilians' which apparently mandated NATO and its allies to become the air force of the Libyan Rebels against Qaddafi. Russia and China weren't so happy about NATO and friends enforcing regime change in Libya and Russia (I doubt China cares either way to be honest, they're the only ones playing a neutral and pragmatic game in this) is far more sympathetic to Assad then it ever was to Qaddafi since Qaddafi was kind of nutty anyways.

And there is no coalition. Our natural 'allies' in the Middle East are fearful of the repercussions, with Saudi Arabia and Qatar amongst others preferring to sponsor and supply al-Nusra and other terrorist organizations fighting Assad as their way of 'assistance.' Unless something changes in Britain, they won't be participating. Therefore France is the only potential coalition partner to the US since Hollande has been quite strong in his condemnation of the Syrian government. But we won't know where their legislature falls until Wednesday. Italy has stated it won't get involved unless there is a UN sanction.

Exactly.

I don't think I understand the point you're trying to make :)

Online Neysha

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #106 on: August 30, 2013, 03:48:28 PM »
I don't think I understand the point you're trying to make :)

Agreeing with you.

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #107 on: August 30, 2013, 03:55:22 PM »
Okay :D

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #108 on: August 30, 2013, 04:04:05 PM »
I figure he's saying the terrain is bad and that the reasons there won't be a rush of allies to the U.S. side now are, to a large degree, of the U.S.'s own making. Things have come home to roost after the mess-ups of (especially) the Bush years.

And we all know both the U.S. and Britain are tired of war in the Middle East and don't want a new extended military undertaking down there, right?

But this has been going on for two years now, with hundreds of people getting killed every week, millions of Syrians on the run out of the country and a threat of further destabilizing the whole region. And everybody around (except Turkey) essentially sitting on their hands. It's kind of time that someone took this crisis seriously.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 04:13:57 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Imogen

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #109 on: August 30, 2013, 04:53:51 PM »
It seems the Arab League already asked for a joint Arab-United Nations intervention in 2012.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/13/world/middleeast/arab-league-requests-un-peacekeepers-for-syria.html?_r=0


Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #110 on: August 31, 2013, 05:10:34 AM »
Money for Nothing?

The gap between the huge technical and economic resources that have been put into intelligence and surveillance, and weak actual ability to deliver reliable, good information (especially info before something happens!)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 05:55:09 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #111 on: August 31, 2013, 01:43:39 PM »
Well, it seems some kind of missile shower from the sea is going to happen but not within the next day or two, as Obama has plegded to seek approval from Congress. That puts it a few more days ahead, on the other hand it really poses some question marks at his northern European trip. If there will be a strike that solidly defies Russia, then St.Petersburg might not be the place to be just, say, three days after it started.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 01:46:08 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline ShadowFox89

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #112 on: August 31, 2013, 02:30:40 PM »
Well, it seems some kind of missile shower from the sea is going to happen but not within the next day or two, as Obama has plegded to seek approval from Congress.

 But Obama is an evil, power grabbing monster! Why would he seek approval from Congress! That's.... that's something that hasn't happened since the 50's!





(blue is for sarcasm)

Offline Kythia

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #113 on: August 31, 2013, 02:31:25 PM »
Money for Nothing?

The gap between the huge technical and economic resources that have been put into intelligence and surveillance, and weak actual ability to deliver reliable, good information (especially info before something happens!)

Off topic, but  I'm absolutely in love with this for discussions about $53 billion or whatever.  It's really cool, it provides context for numbers on webpages - because $53 billion is kinda hard to immediately get your head round.

Really easy to install as well.  All you need to do is whine to your neighbour until he installs it for you.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #114 on: August 31, 2013, 02:50:01 PM »
Off topic, but  I'm absolutely in love with this for discussions about $53 billion or whatever.  It's really cool, it provides context for numbers on webpages - because $53 billion is kinda hard to immediately get your head round.

Really easy to install as well.  All you need to do is whine to your neighbour until he installs it for you.

I'll have to try that one. I remember reading somewhere (just as an example of strange visualizations of numbers) that the worldwide sales of ipads, up to that date, had been such that you could build a wall of the pads around the coasts of South America, two metres tall and, I think, ninety cm (three feet) thick.  ::)

Offline Kythia

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #115 on: August 31, 2013, 02:55:19 PM »
I'll have to try that one. I remember reading somewhere (just as an example of strange visualizations of numbers) that the worldwide sales of ipads, up to that date, had been such that you could build a wall of the pads around the coasts of South America, two metres tall and, I think, ninety cm (three feet) thick.  ::)

Wow.  Although what'd be more fun is building a miles high impenetrable wall of iPad's around Paraguay.  The thought has really tickled me for some reason.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #116 on: August 31, 2013, 03:12:45 PM »
Wow.  Although what'd be more fun is building a miles high impenetrable wall of iPad's around Paraguay.  The thought has really tickled me for some reason.

I counted it over a bit just now, and the supposed wall might not have been quite that thick at the base. Worldwide sales of ipads stood at around 100 million units last October, so anyone can calculate their own Chinese walls here. I'm sure about the reference to a wall around South America though, and a wall of those dimensions around all of Paraguay or Peru wouldn't be hard to achieve make a sketch for. The difficult thing would be to keep it in place where it ran through the jungle.  :D


Online Neysha

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #117 on: August 31, 2013, 06:01:24 PM »
Well, it seems some kind of missile shower from the sea is going to happen but not within the next day or two, as Obama has plegded to seek approval from Congress. That puts it a few more days ahead, on the other hand it really poses some question marks at his northern European trip. If there will be a strike that solidly defies Russia, then St.Petersburg might not be the place to be just, say, three days after it started.

I'm glad Obama is finally deciding to go to Congress. I'm disappointed he took a week to decide to do so, after leaking his entire strategy of what he wanted to do and how limited in scope the intervention would be. And if that isn't enough, he won't end the Congressional recess and so we're going to wait ten days until there is the beginning of any Congressional action. I get why Obama did it. Public and congressional pressure overrode his desire to protect his ego and that of the nations over Syria allegedly crossing his "redline" and so he decided on the most face saving measure he could think of, which is waiting until the Congressional recess is over and voting on it a full twenty days after the actual attacks occurred while stating he wants to do it, but will wait for Congress and shift the blame onto them.

A nice political move and a solid face saving measure. It practically guarantees that there won't be military intervention as a result of these attacks as well, unless something new develops and in the outside chance there is an intervention, after twenty days, any effect of a limited, narrow, close ended intervention would be even more negligible.

I love it, Cameron sticks out his political neck and using the same forceful language that Obama is, and risks his political survival and future to get a vote done. Hollande is the same way and will have a vote next Wednesday. Now Obama could've ended the recess, but decided to wait ten days, leaving the French if they vote for action, high and dry for a whole week. Wouldn't be the first time the US has left their French "allies" high and dry of course when it comes to even a limited military response. ;)

But that's American political courage for ya. :P

I bet the Assad Government is breathing a complete sigh of relief now, if not celebrating this turn of events.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 06:10:33 PM by Neysha »

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #118 on: September 01, 2013, 08:13:47 AM »
I found this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Han5fgzy4KU


Funny enough, that man says exactly how I think about the situation.

Offline Outsider

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #119 on: September 01, 2013, 08:43:11 AM »
I found this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Han5fgzy4KU


Funny enough, that man says exactly how I think about the situation.

Thank you for sharing the video.
I quite liked his speech.

Offline Luna

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #120 on: September 01, 2013, 10:20:25 AM »
Before we all jump on the bandwagon and chide Obama for his "dithering"... lets keep in mind that the UN inspectors haven't even finished their analysis yet. I think it will be a lot harder for Congress, as well as other countries, to continue to do nothing once the inspectors come back with proof that Asad used chemical weapons on his own people, including hundreds of children.

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #121 on: September 01, 2013, 10:22:52 AM »
Correct but as the guy in the link I sent rightfully said... what will happen when the rebels 'win'? Will that make everything better?

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #122 on: September 01, 2013, 10:23:45 AM »
Before we all jump on the bandwagon and chide Obama for his "dithering"... lets keep in mind that the UN inspectors haven't even finished their analysis yet. I think it will be a lot harder for Congress, as well as other countries, to continue to do nothing once the inspectors come back with proof that Asad used chemical weapons on his own people, including hundreds of children.

+1

Offline Luna

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Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #123 on: September 01, 2013, 10:27:17 AM »
Correct but as the guy in the link I sent rightfully said... what will happen when the rebels 'win'? Will that make everything better?

That's kind of a moot point, considering that anything that Obama and the Congress would be willing to do, will not be anywhere near enough to hand the rebels a victory.

In fact, Asad wouldn't even be in this position if he had just slaughtered his people using conventional means, instead of busting out chemical weapons. Not sure what that says about the international community.

Offline Dashenka

Re: US warships near Syrian waters
« Reply #124 on: September 01, 2013, 10:34:22 AM »
Im not saying we should do nothing, but there has to be a plan for what to do once Assad is gone.