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Author Topic: Sequestration  (Read 3287 times)

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Offline Elias

Re: Sequestration
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2013, 12:42:56 PM »
Quote
A guarenteed social safety net for all citizens and we mean guarenteed affordable housing, food, clothes, assurances of a job or welfare funds if one isn't working and education at Federally supported schools free up through four years of college or a trade school.

This doesn't help a nation it destroys it, your basically handing citizens an excuse to be lazy instead of offering incentive to become valued citizens, instead you should severely limit who can be a part of the social safety net, and improve their lifestyles to that of a middle class citizen, having a terminal illness or suffering from some sort of mental illness isn't a crime and they should not be forced to live in poverty because they NEED assistance. However those who don't shouldn't get squat, if someone has worked hard and lose their job they should be protected by the companies who fired/layed off/retired them and if they have failed THEN and only then should the government step in.

Smaller government, less aid, bring the community back into the mix and work hard to form relationships on a local level.


Quote
The second would be making all forms of discrimination illegal including economic discrimination for example you couldn't use ones credit rating against them for employment and you couldn't have laws hurting the homeless in public policy.

I will tentatively support this, so long as you accept the ideal the best man for the job, and don't believe in handing people jobs just because they're poor. You still need to earn it not be handed everything on a silver platter.

Quote
And I would add to this the use of the military as it is for the defense of US soil and our territories, and for humanitarian missions only and the former would require a threat of invasion at the level to destroy the body politic of our nation. That is the military is to only be defensive or for humanitarian missions no more deployments all over the world unless its a general war. And I would narrow the threat to be governments and nations not groups to take out any support for a war on terror. I would allow in the language deployments for elimination of foreign threats limited to the special forces as a limited action by the president. This would allow us to downsize the military under clear lack of need for a large military but maintain a strong home force and some special forces.

Now how many here would support this as law of the land? You get the issue you could invoke this and anything could happen some people might like but some could be huge shifts in policy.

A noble libertarian ideal that will NEVER happen, our foreign policy hinges on international deployment and the money spent on these bases is miniscule in comparison to other projects that are a great deal more wasteful.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Sequestration
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2013, 04:41:31 PM »
This doesn't help a nation it destroys it, your basically handing citizens an excuse to be lazy instead of offering incentive to become valued citizens, instead you should severely limit who can be a part of the social safety net, and improve their lifestyles to that of a middle class citizen, having a terminal illness or suffering from some sort of mental illness isn't a crime and they should not be forced to live in poverty because they NEED assistance. However those who don't shouldn't get squat, if someone has worked hard and lose their job they should be protected by the companies who fired/layed off/retired them and if they have failed THEN and only then should the government step in.

Smaller government, less aid, bring the community back into the mix and work hard to form relationships on a local level.

So why do countries that are famous for their robust social safety nets and government-funded secondary education systems routinely trounce the US in  economic stability and quality of life?

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Sequestration
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2013, 01:16:09 AM »
So why do countries that are famous for their robust social safety nets and government-funded secondary education systems routinely trounce the US in  economic stability and quality of life?

Which countries?

Offline Trieste

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Re: Sequestration
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2013, 02:23:32 AM »
Which countries?


Erm, the countries being compared are clearly visible in the tables contained in both links.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Sequestration
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2013, 03:08:45 AM »
Whoops... missed that! Sorry.

Offline Elias

Re: Sequestration
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2013, 02:41:33 PM »
So why do countries that are famous for their robust social safety nets and government-funded secondary education systems routinely trounce the US in  economic stability and quality of life?

Having lived in two of these countries, Canada especially long, I can say with a great deal of confidence that these numbers are greatly exaggerated Canada especially lives in perpetual recession, with massive unemployment which numbers are skewed due to the fact that they don't include those who have abandoned employment in place of living on the dole. Ontario in-particular was a horrible place to live with areas like Welland and Hamilton being blights where the unemployed live in government housing and free everything, while hard working Canadian citizens are taxed out of existence, especially those trying to make it up in the world. The government abandoned many on the coast both east(Problems with fishing) and west(Exploding crime rates), and the only provinces doing well for themselves are the prairies (Due to a booming oil economy, but damn are the prices high AND Quebec which was until recently run by separatists, not sure if they still are. I heard the Quebecois were nearly wiped out in elections recently.)

As for other choices on the list, Luxemburg and Hong Kong are both single cities with massive governments promoting and using them behind the scenes, their stats are incredibly hard to compare fairly to a massive nation like the United States with the third largest population in the world, and in Singapore Only one government party is ever elected into power, since its reformation. Easy to be stable when you have a lot of money and you're a dictatorship.

I mean lets compare large socialist governments that have similar needs to the US and see how they stack up. Then we can get an honest comparison. Germany, France, England, Russia and Japan. These are the nations you need to make your comparisons to and all of these major powers are lacking when compared to the US. Better yet a lot of the places on these lists you provided are defended by American interests and therefore can afford to pump the vast majority of their military budget into socialist programs.

Socialist systems promote the deterioration of freedom.

In America hardworking people do well, and those who are not suffer. My only issue with America is their lack of respect for those suffering and needing catastrophic care, but the best way to free up resources for them is to kick everyone who doesn't need it out of the system and rework it all to those who don't have a choice in their state of livelihood.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Sequestration
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2013, 02:55:57 PM »
"Elias' fascinationg perpsective on Canada"
Having lived in two of these countries, Canada especially long, I can say with a great deal of confidence that these numbers are greatly exaggerated Canada especially lives in perpetual recession, with massive unemployment which numbers are skewed due to the fact that they don't include those who have abandoned employment in place of living on the dole. Ontario in-particular was a horrible place to live with areas like Welland and Hamilton being blights where the unemployed live in government housing and free everything, while hard working Canadian citizens are taxed out of existence, especially those trying to make it up in the world. The government abandoned many on the coast both east(Problems with fishing) and west(Exploding crime rates), and the only provinces doing well for themselves are the prairies (Due to a booming oil economy, but damn are the prices high AND Quebec which was until recently run by separatists, not sure if they still are. I heard the Quebecois were nearly wiped out in elections recently.)

Speaking as someone who has been a lifelong Canadian citizen and knows both the Prairies, the West Coast and Ontario very well, the account above looks to me to be distorted to the point of being outright bullshit.

(EDIT: In fact the more I look at it the more outright, bald-faced falsehoods I can see. I have to go out now but I'll enumerate them when I'm back on this evening for anyone who's interested.)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 03:02:19 PM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Sequestration
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2013, 03:05:25 PM »
Whoops... missed that! Sorry.

 :-*

Having lived in two of these countries, Canada especially long, I can say with a great deal of confidence that these numbers are greatly exaggerated Canada especially lives in perpetual recession, with massive unemployment which numbers are skewed due to the fact that they don't include those who have abandoned employment in place of living on the dole. Ontario in-particular was a horrible place to live with areas like Welland and Hamilton being blights where the unemployed live in government housing and free everything, while hard working Canadian citizens are taxed out of existence, especially those trying to make it up in the world. The government abandoned many on the coast both east(Problems with fishing) and west(Exploding crime rates), and the only provinces doing well for themselves are the prairies (Due to a booming oil economy, but damn are the prices high AND Quebec which was until recently run by separatists, not sure if they still are. I heard the Quebecois were nearly wiped out in elections recently.)

As for other choices on the list, Luxemburg and Hong Kong are both single cities with massive governments promoting and using them behind the scenes, their stats are incredibly hard to compare fairly to a massive nation like the United States with the third largest population in the world, and in Singapore Only one government party is ever elected into power, since its reformation. Easy to be stable when you have a lot of money and you're a dictatorship.

I mean lets compare large socialist governments that have similar needs to the US and see how they stack up. Then we can get an honest comparison. Germany, France, England, Russia and Japan. These are the nations you need to make your comparisons to and all of these major powers are lacking when compared to the US. Better yet a lot of the places on these lists you provided are defended by American interests and therefore can afford to pump the vast majority of their military budget into socialist programs.

Socialist systems promote the deterioration of freedom.

In America hardworking people do well, and those who are not suffer. My only issue with America is their lack of respect for those suffering and needing catastrophic care, but the best way to free up resources for them is to kick everyone who doesn't need it out of the system and rework it all to those who don't have a choice in their state of livelihood.


Yeah... to borrow Ephiral's phrasing, citation needed. Like, a lot.

Offline Elias

Re: Sequestration
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2013, 03:06:57 PM »
I call Bullshit on your bullshit.

I lived in Toronto, then Burlington moved from there to Hamilton for a short time, then moved to London and then a small town outside of London called Exeter, I spent a great deal of time in Ottawa and Montreal and visit friends in British Columbia and Nova Scotia who I met while in Ottawa thanks to the political forum that was shut down due to budget cuts, I remember that debate. I admit I did not spend tons of time in the prairies but I heard from friends who worked on the drills during the summer.

As for the problems with the maritime provinces, those issues are so iconic a lot of our local Canadian groups sing about it. Especially those with a Celtic sound to them.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Sequestration
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2013, 04:32:13 PM »
Quote
As for other choices on the list, Luxemburg and Hong Kong are both single cities with massive governments promoting and using them behind the scenes,


I shall be sure to write to the mayors of Esch-sur-Alzette, Dudelange, and Differdange to let them know they don't exist.  It's only fair someone tells them.  Oddly, there are thousands of references to them on the internet, its a wonder noone but you has ever realised Luxembourg is a single city.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Sequestration
« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2013, 06:29:51 PM »
Having lived in two of these countries, Canada especially long, I can say with a great deal of confidence that these numbers are greatly exaggerated Canada especially lives in perpetual recession, with massive unemployment which numbers are skewed due to the fact that they don't include those who have abandoned employment in place of living on the dole.

The US does the same thing, so statistics are still directly comparable. Let's see some to back your claims of "massive" unemployment.

Ontario in-particular was a horrible place to live with areas like Welland and Hamilton being blights where the unemployed live in government housing and free everything, while hard working Canadian citizens are taxed out of existence, especially those trying to make it up in the world.

You have clearly never been on EI. At all. Trust me, it doesn't pay for anywhere near what you think it does (or, in fact, anything other than the most bare-bones cut-all-costs-to-the-bone lifestyle).

The government abandoned many on the coast both east(Problems with fishing) and west(Exploding crime rates), and the only provinces doing well for themselves are the prairies (Due to a booming oil economy, but damn are the prices high AND Quebec which was until recently run by separatists, not sure if they still are. I heard the Quebecois were nearly wiped out in elections recently.)

Citation needed on those exploding crime rates - both what they currently are, and a comparison to previous rates. A contrast with the US would be highly revealing, as well. As for the east coast... if I leave the building I am in right now and walk west, I will be in the ocean inside of ten minutes. I have received substantial government support recently. In short: Your claim doesn't hold water. And Quebec? This is the most revealing part of what you wrote. Since your "recently", Quebec has gone red, the Liberal party has collapsed, and now it's orange. The Bloc specifically abandoned the idea of separation years ago. Your information is ten years out of date.

I mean lets compare large socialist governments that have similar needs to the US and see how they stack up. Then we can get an honest comparison. Germany, France, England, Russia and Japan. These are the nations you need to make your comparisons to and all of these major powers are lacking when compared to the US. Better yet a lot of the places on these lists you provided are defended by American interests and therefore can afford to pump the vast majority of their military budget into socialist programs.

I assume you have some statistics to back this up, and aren't just talking out of your ass. I would like to see them.

Socialist systems promote the deterioration of freedom.
If you mean the freedom to be pushed around by people with more money than you, you're spot on.

In America hardworking people do well, and those who are not suffer. My only issue with America is their lack of respect for those suffering and needing catastrophic care, but the best way to free up resources for them is to kick everyone who doesn't need it out of the system and rework it all to those who don't have a choice in their state of livelihood.
"You'll do well if you just work hard enough!" has been laughable in the US for many years now. Did you just come from 1970?

Offline elone

Re: Sequestration
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2013, 09:57:34 PM »
Just an observation. For all the hype surrounding the sequester, it certainly has faded from the news lately. Typical sensational journalism and apathy by everyone else.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Sequestration
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2013, 10:20:12 PM »
First: The full effect of the cuts has not yet been felt. Some of it was immediate, and it sucked. Some of it will be coming up over the next several months. And due to the way some accounting stuffs work, there can be cuts years in the future that will then be attributed to this fiscal year (no, I don't know precisely how; I'm not an accountant, but I do know that I have seen these fiscal tricks before while doing investigative work into how my tuition money was spent).

Second: How many times do you see the local unemployment line on the news? How about the local homeless population? What about single parents standing in the grocery store trying to figure out how to stretch their shrinking dollars into enough meals for the next week? For a more personal demonstration: my husband and I were both struck down with the flu a couple months ago and, mid-flu, had our power turned off. I saw no news cameras. Perhaps they were very secretive news cameras.

Or maybe the news is full of distractionary crap and hasn't covered the real impact of the recession, the banking crisis, or the current unemployment for years. Which one is more likely?

Offline elone

Re: Sequestration
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2013, 11:30:58 PM »

Or maybe the news is full of distractionary crap and hasn't covered the real impact of the recession, the banking crisis, or the current unemployment for years. Which one is more likely?

This is my point, the media gets all hyped up over issues, then does an about face and goes on with whatever the next crisis or event makes headlines. How about that Pope?

Seriously, while they do cover events thoroughly when they happen, the stories fade away and nobody seems to notice. People are still being foreclosed upon, banksters still are acting recklessly, and people are still suffering with inadequate healthcare. Congress is worthless, we used to depend on the media to get to the bottom of issues, ie. Watergate. Now it seems they do the big story and then quit. Maybe it is just me.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Sequestration
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2013, 11:35:35 PM »
I don't think it's just you. I do find myself increasingly seeking out independent or 'small' media sources. Social media plays a large role in my news intake these days. The news I find on social media tends to be more relevant to my life and my interests, and the news sources tend to have a better follow-up record.

Offline ShadowFox89

Re: Sequestration
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2013, 11:41:25 PM »
I mean lets compare large socialist governments that have similar needs to the US and see how they stack up. Then we can get an honest comparison. Germany, France, England, Russia and Japan. These are the nations you need to make your comparisons to and all of these major powers are lacking when compared to the US. Better yet a lot of the places on these lists you provided are defended by American interests and therefore can afford to pump the vast majority of their military budget into socialist programs.

 Statistics please. Or some facts.

 From three different sources, at least one of them being neutral in terms of politics.

Offline Darius

Re: Sequestration
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2013, 08:34:45 PM »
There has been some interesting talk and debate in here on the sequestration, but I thought I would talk about how its affecting some different parts of the government.

The sequestration imposed an across the board cut to agencies. There is no nuance to how it was applied, this creates problems in that agencies are very limited in how they can react to it. It affects their budget for the entire fiscal year. What this means is that with half the year gone, half their budget spent, they have to make up for that cut in the last half of the fiscal year, which makes the cuts they have to make more draconian than if this had been applied at the beginning of the fiscal year.

Different agencies handled this in varying ways; some smart, some not so smart. One local agency decided to implement an internal 10% cut at the beginning of the year and operated that way all year. They figured that if the sequestration was averted, they could always obligate that money in the last half of the year. They made some minor changes to how they operated and will finish out the year with minimal impact on their mission and employees due to good planning.

A family member of mine works for DoD. His agency operated as if they would get their normal 2% increase for the first half of the year. Now they have to make up that excess, and the sequestration cuts. On that base civilian employees are going to be on 30 furlough days till the end of Sept. For some of those employees, it means they will not be able to meet some financial obligations. If they do fail to meet every payment on time though, it affects their security clearances. There is a very real possibility that some of them could be losing their jobs if they can't figure it out.

The government really needs to make some serious changes, both to the tax code and how it spends money, but this was the worst possible way to accomplish it.