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Author Topic: COMIC GEEKS Я US  (Read 27540 times)

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Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #75 on: March 07, 2012, 06:33:59 AM »
Which is why I shake my head every time I hear some kid talking about how Cap is "a stupid boring goodie goodie boyscout".  No, their heroes have to have a -body count-!  *sighs*

Offline Heaven Sent Blossom

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Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #76 on: March 07, 2012, 12:29:56 PM »
Of course there's also the fact that Cap used to be little more than a jingoistic knock off of Superman, that might account for why a lot of people don't quite vibe with him.
Personally Cap has become one of my favourite Marvel characters since Brubaker was given the reigns, however I've not read anything since the whole "magic bullet" saga so I don't know if he's regressed or not since then.

Generally I've kind of fallen to the wayside of reading comics lately, not sure why, I'm trying to get back into it though and recently I grabbed the first issue of Fatale and some back issues of the new Moon Knight. I don't know about Moon Knight, I mean, on the one hand the Maleev art is always nice, on the other hand Bendis is a chump of the highest order so I'm not convinced he's the guy to steer MK in a quality direction. So far he hasn't done anything to ease my fears.
Fatale was pretty much exactly what you would expect from a Brubaker independent run, well you know, apart from the supernatural/occult element that looks to be on the cards.

Offline DeMalachine

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #77 on: March 07, 2012, 04:05:25 PM »
I'm gonna tell you what I see from this little recap here from a purely analytical point of view. I've never read the Avengers or Ultimates or whatever the fuck this Marvel stuff is (I'm a DC girl long time!), so if I'm wrong about any details, that's why.

This is clearly a story that has put Thor as the UN/socialists and Tony Stark and the US as the Republicans and the US. Thor is the European 'other' that the US sees as trying to control their actions and dictate their laws on the world. From the comment on Thor's "bad" and "lazy" ruling, you see criticisms of European nations. In the criticism of higher education you see the words of Rick Santorum and other equivalent extreme Republicans. Basically, the message I'm seeing from this one is 'only America is allowed to interfere in other countries.'

Interesting for a comic book to be so blatantly Conservative in message...

As for Captain America, I think he embodies all the qualities we should all try to have in life in general. Honor, Commitment and Courage should be used be everyone. I think people have just forgotten that.

Wow. And there was me thinking Thor was a god who liked getting into fights and just fucking shit up with a hammer. :P

But count me in on the Cap love. I've always liked him. And yes, he may have started as a jingoistic knockoff of Superman - but in later years, we found a guy whose patriotism isn't just of sheep-like masses, but a more introspective, critical sort. I can recall a number of Cap stories from when I was a kid where the guy would frequently be at loggerheads with the US government. In his clear-cut belief in and defence of human and civil rights, which he obviously holds as being above any national government, Cap to me seems very much along the lines of the enligtenment men - Jefferson, Adams et al - in that his cause is not so much his nation, but the principals that are supposed to embody it. For all his patriotism, if the US became a fascist state, Cap would be first in line to fight it. I have no doubt about that.

So yeah...my take on it is that Cap is what you'd get if you gave Thomas Jefferson superpowers.

Thor had the better movie though.  ;D


Offline Cold Heritage

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #78 on: March 07, 2012, 08:45:47 PM »
Which is why I shake my head every time I hear some kid talking about how Cap is "a stupid boring goodie goodie boyscout".  No, their heroes have to have a -body count-!  *sighs*

Cap fought in the WW2. He killed enemy combatants. He didn't enjoy it, and he didn't revel in, but he didn't shy away from it.

Basically, the message I'm seeing from this one is 'only America is allowed to interfere in other countries.'

The US was pretty happy to let Dr. Doom! annex part of another country. Dr. Doom! is the head head of state of Latveria, a sovereign Eastern European nation. Iron Man was not going to put a stop to Thor so that US troops could march in (US troops were present only because the US was worried Thor was going to start a war and that somehow would drag the US into things - but they were explicitly not going to step in and stop the genocide).

You know that old addage, "give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Give a man a fish, and he eats for life"? Well, one issue in this story had a lobster fisher who was going to commit suicide, but do it in his boat so it looked like an accident so his family would get the insurance money. Because the mismanaged and overfished lobster stocks are depleted and he cannot provide for his family and he thinks he is out of options. But then, while he's out in his boat, there is this incredible storm. He thinks he is going to buy it, just as planned. But he goes out to the deck, and he sees Thor. Thor's causing the storm. And then, out of nowhere, these lobsters are thrown up onto the dude's boat. The ocean is crawling with them. Lobster fishers can get back to work. The logical problems - that lobster prices would drop because they are no longer scarce and people would just overfish them all over again - never actually comes up. Just that big bad Thor is up to no good doing stuff he should not be doing with the Odinpower. Thor gave a bunch of people their livelihoods backs, and it is presented as further evidence that Thor is unworthy of the cosmic powers he has inherited from his father.

There isn't really any criticism of higher education in the story. The people who took advantage of Thor's egalitarian rule to fulfill their potential is something Thiafli is shown by Loki - the evil god of mischief - to show the results of Thor's rule on Earth. But even though it's Loki showing Thiafli this stuff, it's never presented as somehow false or untrue. It is just, however, that some people chose instead to be lazy and indolent that the good Thor's rule resulted in is . . . worthless. Because humans did not "earn" it themselves. Thor just showed up and used his godly powers to make the world a better place.

Thor is eventually convinced to use the Odinpower to reverse the changes he has made to Earth when an entity specifically created to kill gods shows up on Earth, and there is no one to fight it except for Thor and the Asgardians. There are no heroes in left in man.

For all his patriotism, if the US became a fascist state, Cap would be first in line to fight it. I have no doubt about that.

He did, in this one story where he gets frozen and wakes up to a world where Red Skull got himself a cloned Cap body and went back to the US pretending to be the genuine Cap and molded the US in his image.

There's this gem, too:



Wish I had the one where he's grasping the flag and says, "I'm loyal to nothing, general . . . except the dream."

Offline DeMalachine

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #79 on: March 07, 2012, 09:06:21 PM »
^That's rockin good stuff. I always figured there would be some Cap stories out there where he has to deal with a totalitarian version of the US.

Offline rick957

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2012, 02:39:25 AM »
I'm here to pose some questions to other comic fans, rather than to reply to recent posts (which I have read and find quite interesting).  That's okay, right?  I don't know if there are enough comic "geeks" at Elliquiy to keep a thread this broad alive for long, but what the hell, I like the idea of it.

So here's two things I'd love to hear discussed here ...

First, now that it's been a few months, what's the consensus view on the "New 52" push at DC? 

I don't buy current comics but keep an eye on recent developments and buy stuff second-hand.  Last I heard, the consensus was that the "New 52" was a smashing sales success and did even better than expected all around.  Personally, I found those developments rather discouraging.  The "New 52" was advertised as an attempt to draw a huge, new- or lapsed- audience of now-digital readers into the comic-buying fold, but I personally thought it was nothing more than another ultra-cynical attempt to squeeze bucks out of the dwindling, non-discriminating, uber-faithful die-hard audience that has kept the industry alive for the last 20 years or so.  In other words, more-of-the-same dressed up as something-new-and-innovative ... a safe cash-in masquerading as a daring risk. 

But then, I didn't actually buy the stuff as it was coming out.  Thoughts, pro or con?  Did anyone here even pay attention, or are we all Marvel zombies here at Elliquiy?  (I'm an equal-opportunity non-exclusive comics whore myself.)

Another thing that I wonder about:  is there a large number of people out there who, like me, long for the simpler pleasures that older (pre-80s) comic strips and comic books aimed to provide? 

It seems to me that the comics-industry press nowadays assumes that most of the frequent comics-purchasing audience is looking for modernized, ostensibly-"adult" / "mature" / "serious" superhero stories along the lines of Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, and nothing else.  Personally, I'm more interested in non-superhero comix of the Crumb- or Hernandez Bros.- or Chris Ware-variety, or else, superhero comics of the pre- jaded-80s style -- non-"relevant," non-intellectual kiddie comics, basically.  (Sure I love 'em!  So what?  :P)

I suspect that almost nobody shares my tastes in this regard, but on the other hand, I'm not convinced that there isn't a large unreached audience out there with tastes similar to mine, hungering for classic comics juvenalia and finding nothing worth buying in the current climate of pseudo-serious, faux-"mature" superhero fare. 

Ne?  Oui?  Wha?  :)

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2012, 03:39:16 AM »
Any respect I had for 52 just went out the window (and most of that would have been due to the Jonah Hex and Batman titles). Two Words:  Before Watchmen.


Offline ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2012, 12:42:55 PM »
DC are really searching hard for new readers and a more broad readership. However, in looking for this broader interest they've isolated their stalwart fans. They've got rid of so many titles, reconfigured groups into strange combinations (Outlaws, anyone? Never seen a stranger group than that) and disappeared characters. It's all so serious now. Very, very dark. And they got rid of Tiny Titans!!

As I've said before, DC has broken more than it's fixed. And some please FIRE MORRISON. Good grief... It's all gone to shit and I dunno if I want to keep reading.

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2012, 12:46:18 PM »
Cap fought in the WW2. He killed enemy combatants. He didn't enjoy it, and he didn't revel in, but he didn't shy away from it.

I know, but my point was that he's not a "bloody" or "Brooding" character like the ones that became so popular in the 90s... Punisher, Wolverine, Ghost Rider, Spawn...

Besides which, I can count the number of people that I know he's killed since being thawed out on one finger.  Baron Blood, who as a vampire may not have even counted as killing since he was already dead.

Offline Jagerin

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Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2012, 01:08:23 PM »
Oh, for anyone that didn't see this already...Marvel has taken merchandising to a whole new level:

Avengers Specialized Cologne/Perfume/and Fragrances!





Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2012, 01:52:14 PM »
Wow.. just.. wow...

words fail me.

Offline Jagerin

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Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2012, 01:53:49 PM »
Tony's should smell like booze. *nods*

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2012, 02:03:50 PM »
Tony's should smell like booze. *nods*

+1

Offline DeMalachine

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #88 on: March 08, 2012, 02:14:06 PM »

It seems to me that the comics-industry press nowadays assumes that most of the frequent comics-purchasing audience is looking for modernized, ostensibly-"adult" / "mature" / "serious" superhero stories along the lines of Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, and nothing else.  Personally, I'm more interested in non-superhero comix of the Crumb- or Hernandez Bros.- or Chris Ware-variety, or else, superhero comics of the pre- jaded-80s style -- non-"relevant," non-intellectual kiddie comics, basically.  (Sure I love 'em!  So what?  :P)

I suspect that almost nobody shares my tastes in this regard, but on the other hand, I'm not convinced that there isn't a large unreached audience out there with tastes similar to mine, hungering for classic comics juvenalia and finding nothing worth buying in the current climate of pseudo-serious, faux-"mature" superhero fare. 

Ne?  Oui?  Wha?  :)

I still enjoy superhero stories immensely - though these days it's mostly through collections and graphic novels rather than the comics themselves - but I was always partial to a bit of American Splendor too. 'Everyday life is tough stuff' - Harvey Pekar will certainly be missed...

Offline Novak

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2012, 04:15:03 PM »
This seems to be the right spot to geek out about buying Amazing Spider-man 129 which is the first appearance of my personal favorite character.  The Punisher.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #90 on: March 08, 2012, 10:30:17 PM »

Ne?  Oui?  Wha?  :)

Like all comics, it depends on the team doing the book.  Personally, I like Batwing.  The early Catwoman issues were good, but they were done by the same team.

The Teen Titans are...  Meh, so far.  And I like the reboot of Batgirl.  Thank God someone realized that The Killing Joke was never meant to be canon.

Thing is this is my opinion.

Offline ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #91 on: March 09, 2012, 12:29:37 AM »
I think they've totally degraded Barbara Gordon's character by assuming that making her Batgirl makes her more. She was a strong and capable leader who knew that having a disability did not lessen her ability to help people. She had accepted what had happened to her and it wasn't stopping her from doing anything. I think the decision to act as if nothing ever happened was incredibly shallow.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #92 on: March 09, 2012, 02:48:45 AM »
Why?  In a world where the hero Cyborg got robot parts, why should Ms. Gordon be exempt?  Why would she hide behind a computer when she was s much Batgirl?  Other than to cop out and illicit sympathy.   I'm sorry, but as a cripple, I found her excuse to stay in that chair to be beyond insulting.  Especially when that particular universe has means to correct it.

Offline Semantics

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #93 on: March 09, 2012, 05:06:28 PM »
I always thought that the Oracle idea was a good idea taken too far.  Showing that her disability didn't stop her ability to be a strong character and superhero is great, but in an effort to avoid the idea that she was at disadvantage, the opposite becomes true.  The thought line seems to be that as someone with a disability, she shows that she's not defined or limited by that disability, and because of that she should stay that way despite the obvious (and numerous) ways she could be healed.  This,  in turn, defines her by her disability, just in a completely different way.  It's exceedingly annoying and stupefying.

Sadly, though, I haven't read many comics of late.  Comics are nice in that they don't just end if something comes up with the staff working on it, and series and characters can be brought back later, but the continuity issues that arise because of it just got to me after a while.  Plus, some of my favorite characters growing up are no longer around.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 05:11:26 PM by Semantics »

Offline Chris Brady

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #94 on: March 09, 2012, 05:18:27 PM »
As I posted on my blog, none of the writers made it seem like she was striving to overcome her disability.  I am.  Why?  Because not being able to get up some mornings or get dressed is horrible.  I remember when I could take less than five minutes to climb seven stairs...

If there was a means for me to replace my hips (my source of disability) so that I could hold down an actual job again, instead of being on disability pension, I would be on it like white on rice.

Barbara Gordon did have that option, she refused it citing that it wouldn't be fair to servicemen and other dangerous job workers (like firefighters.)  I can tell you that most of them, in real life, would have killed to have been given that choice.  Hell, we have medical experts working on making fully functional limbs for those missing them, right this instant. Those who don't strive to be more than they aren't heroes we should aspire to, they whiny emos trying to illicit sympathy for their 'plight'.

That's what I thought was wrong with Oracle.

Offline ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2012, 12:47:19 PM »
Talking purely about the writers themselves and the readers, Barbara was a better character as Oracle. She was more well-rounded, she was a leader, she was strong. Not to mention, she was a role-model. She had a disability and she dealt with it.

"Fixing" her sends out the message that being disabled is something to suffer through until it can be reversed. It tells kids with disabilities that they are imperfect. It makes it seem like Barbara as Oracle wasn't worth as much Barbara as Batgirl. In my opinion, she was worth more. Now she's just another female superhero.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2012, 02:37:35 PM »
Talking purely about the writers themselves and the readers, Barbara was a better character as Oracle. She was more well-rounded, she was a leader, she was strong. Not to mention, she was a role-model. She had a disability and she dealt with it.

Disagree.  She did NOT deal with it, because she had means, just like we have means to help the disabled, currently in the missing limbs replacement.  She stayed in that wheel chair because it was 'safe'.

And that's not the type of person that we want as a role model.  I'm looking for an article of a U.S. soldier who, during a mission, got stabbed in the neck by some Islamic radical during a peace talk with a village in...  Afganistan?  I wish I could remember where.  He got lucky and survived.  Unfortunately, he was paralyzed.  Did he roll over and accept that he'd never walk again?  Nope, he believed that he would walk so hard, and with the support of his wife, made his body say, "Fuck this noise, I AM walking again."

True story.  And this is the type of person we should be admiring.  Some who defies the odds.

"Fixing" her sends out the message that being disabled is something to suffer through until it can be reversed. It tells kids with disabilities that they are imperfect. It makes it seem like Barbara as Oracle wasn't worth as much Barbara as Batgirl. In my opinion, she was worth more. Now she's just another female superhero.

Being disabled IS being imperfect, I know because I am.  It's frustrating not being able to do the little things.  Like sitting still, or walking to the store.  Just walking period.  Everyone looks at you different, they pity you, if you care about such things.  Being crippled is NOT something to be proud of.  Surmounting it, IS.  Oracle wasn't surmounting it, she was wallowing in it.

And I say this as someone who suffers Ankylosing Spondylistis, and who's in a lot of pain right now.

Offline ColdBloodedJellyDoughnut

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2012, 02:41:22 PM »
We can agree to disagree.

Offline DeMalachine

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2012, 02:49:09 PM »
On a more sombre note - RIP Jean Giraud, AKA Moebius, who sadly died today.


Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: COMIC GEEKS R US
« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2012, 03:04:11 PM »
On a more sombre note - RIP Jean Giraud, AKA Moebius, who sadly died today.



A shame.. he was an awesome storyteller.