Stranger Things (Apperciation, Discussion, etc...) -Spoilers!-

[Jag]

Warning of possibly unmarked spoilers for all 3 seasons!!!

Since most Facebook groups are full of toxic fandom, I thought I would give a thread a go for this here on E.

Anyway...I've loved Stranger Things since it started. Season 3 came out beginning of this month and season 4 is estimated for December 2020.

Some things to avoid in this thread, actually a big thing, do not post images of the kids. Just please don't. There are plenty of non-violent or romantic scenes that can be linked. Please try to make sure embedded images only contain confirmed 18+ characters. Some are only 18 in the third season (Steve, Nancy, Billy, and Jonathan) and some are older than they look (Kali is 20 in season 2).

Some discussion topics:

Is the Upside Down the only parallel universe?
Is the Upside Down fully organic extensions of the Mind Flayer or was it a dimension the Mind Flayer took over and that's what could happen to Earth too?
How did the Russians know about Hawkins gate?
Is Hawkins special or did Eleven make it special? (like Sunnydale being a Hellmouth)
Have you read the prequel graphic novels or the side novels?
Is Hopper "The American"?
Could Will develop further abilities beyond his 'spidey-sense'?
Is it possible that the Mind Flayer is the lesser of something bigger/stronger?
Will Eleven 'recharge'? Or would you rather see them handle it with no powers to aid them?
Where did the Byers and El move to?
Was the Billy/Flayer a personification toxic masculinity?
Could Billy be redeemed if the ending had been different or was he too far sunk into his learned ways?
How were the Russians keeping a Demogorgon when the first one was able to switch between worlds at will?
Did Billy break the Mind Flayer's control earlier in the season when he chose not to hurt Karen Wheeler? If so, why?
If Will could still communicate while fully infected, is the Mind Flayer limited in what it truly controls in a person?
We know there are at least 11 test subjects, what are all their abilities? (003 was telepathic, 006 had precognition, 008 had Illusion casting and minor-precognition).
Terry Ives is never shown fully using her powers, but we assume she has them based on the way she is able to interact with Eleven, so what would her actual powers be?
Do you think season 4 will take us out of Hawkins fully?
Rumors are that there will be 5th season too, do you think going too far will ruin the magic of the show?
Are too many pop culture references a distraction?



These are just ideas. Feel free to talk about whatever you want.

And the obligatory question that has to be asked: Who is your favorite character? (feel free to explain why, if you want to).

For me...it's Will Byers. I know he gets a lot of flack for his behavior in season 3, but I get it. He was traumatized in a way his friends can't even begin to understand. He lost something and it's going to take him some time to catch up to his friends. He may never catch up to them. Will is a sweet cinnamon roll that needs protecting in my mind.

Also...of course...Steve and Robin.

[Mathim]

Thanks for putting spoilers in the title so I don't have to do that down here. None of my friends who follow the show have gotten to season 3 yet. I really thought of it as a love child of the video game Parasite Eve and the movie Jack Brooks: Monster Slayer where it had all the people congealing into a giant blob monster like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCLd0PpJ86A and becoming a giant monster like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksP22g9l6BE
and this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYaXgmG_R0Y
and it pumping them full of its goop to control them before they just break down into their people paste forms like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXDAHiEkrys

I didn't really get into the series until season 3 was almost available so I was kinda late to the game. People had been singing praises to it all around me but I wasn't really in the mood for bingeing something that wasn't a Marvel Netflix brand so I held off for quite a while. I definitely didn't think it was quite as 'must-see' as everyone made it out to be but I appreciated the production and performances even if I didn't necessarily think the writing was top-notch. I liked the universe of the It movie from 2017 better (it even had one of the ST kids in it, LOL) so this show can't top it IMO but it has its own flavor to offer.

Is the Upside Down the only parallel universe?

No idea but I hope so, it's already confusing enough as it is.

Is the Upside Down fully organic extensions of the Mind Flayer or was it a dimension the Mind Flayer took over and that's what could happen to Earth too?

Given that the entrance of the non-Russian gate was organic, that's what I'm leaning toward. Like an all-consuming parasite given its MO in season 3 of just absorbing what it could and destroying anything that got in its way.

How did the Russians know about Hawkins gate?

Better yet, what the hell are they even fucking around with it for, and how do they not know what they're getting into if they have a pet demogorgon?

Is Hawkins special or did Eleven make it special? (like Sunnydale being a Hellmouth)

I forgot how El got her powers (or any of the others) so I can't say but given the Russians took over where the evil lab people left off, I'm guessing so or they'd just do it elsewhere since they'd be successful, only we know how badly their first test run in their own backyard went.

Have you read the prequel graphic novels or the side novels?

Didn't know they existed, might have to look into that.

Is Hopper "The American"?

I sure hope so. He really pissed me off early in the season by breaking up Mike and El but I started warming up to him once he correctly predicted Alexei would know he had nobody else to go back to since he'd know they would never take him back given he had been compromised.

Could Will develop further abilities beyond his 'spidey-sense'?

That would be cool. Feels off having only one of the kids with an ability. But that evolution makes me think El's power getting turned off is going to lead to hers becoming something bigger and better as a result.

Is it possible that the Mind Flayer is the lesser of something bigger/stronger?

I don't think so. It's already been piecemeal with all the human puddles it congealed into its mutant spider form (hello, yet another It reference) so for the mutant spider to also just be a piecemeal component of an even larger thing doesn't make sense.

Will Eleven 'recharge'? Or would you rather see them handle it with no powers to aid them?

Hell yes, they need her more than ever if they're going overseas to save Hopper. Like I was saying, if Will's tingle becomes something more (precognition?) then maybe El's will evolve into something stronger too, and it's just dormant while it grows and will sprout when they need it most.

Where did the Byers and El move to?

Dunno, nor do I know how the hell they could afford it.

Was the Billy/Flayer a personification toxic masculinity?

Billy in season 2 was, I don't believe that to be the case with season 3. It seemed to treat the male and female hosts the same.

Could Billy be redeemed if the ending had been different or was he too far sunk into his learned ways?

I would have liked to have seen what made Billy more calm and composed when season 3 started since I was already thinking of him as unredeemable from when he almost killed Steve and then all of a sudden he's a lifeguard and the fantasy of all the MILFs in town? GTFO. I would have been more moved by his sacrifice here if they had shown him turning a new leaf instead of showing the leaf already turned with no explanation.

How were the Russians keeping a Demogorgon when the first one was able to switch between worlds at will?

Maybe there are levels and the one who could move between worlds was an alpha or something and this one is more like just a larger version of one of the dogs that didn't have that kind of control?

Did Billy break the Mind Flayer's control earlier in the season when he chose not to hurt Karen Wheeler? If so, why?

I don't think it fully had control over him until it festered in his system long enough. Also if the Mind Flayer knew about all the kids he'd know that causing one of their moms to disappear would have them all over his ass faster than anything so it may have been out of simple practicality.

If Will could still communicate while fully infected, is the Mind Flayer limited in what it truly controls in a person?

Like you were saying, maybe it's a matter of 'Will' power (ha ha) where a person can resist up to a point.

We know there are at least 11 test subjects, what are all their abilities? (003 was telepathic, 006 had precognition, 008 had Illusion casting and minor-precognition).

I'm hoping for body-swapping or some kind of possession type mind control. Who needs the Mind Flayer for that?

Terry Ives is never shown fully using her powers, but we assume she has them based on the way she is able to interact with Eleven, so what would her actual powers be?

I don't remember who that is so I'll have to watch that part again.

Do you think season 4 will take us out of Hawkins fully?

I bet the next one will take place around Xmas when El invited Will to come visit them, and it'll be all in that new locale plus a trip to Russia.

Rumors are that there will be 5th season too, do you think going too far will ruin the magic of the show?

Depends on what they do with season 4.

Are too many pop culture references a distraction?

Hell no, the more the better. One of my favorite places to eat in town is an 80's nostalgia cafe.

b]And the obligatory question that has to be asked: Who is your favorite character? (feel free to explain why, if you want to).[/b]

Dustin. I was the fat kid growing up but was very precocious so I identify with him a lot. Plus I was with my grandma at home a lot more than with my mom.

[Jag]

One of my friends likened it all to Akira. I think it honestly pulled from a lot of sources. I'm not familiar with Parasite Eve, but I have seen Jack Brooks.

No idea but I hope so, it's already confusing enough as it is.

My theory is that there are others, but they may take varying degrees of psychic energy to penetrate. The Upside Down happens to be the easiest, which is why a child was able to breech it. Just my wishful thinking, because like weird multiverses.

Given that the entrance of the non-Russian gate was organic, that's what I'm leaning toward. Like an all-consuming parasite given its MO in season 3 of just absorbing what it could and destroying anything that got in its way.

I like the idea of that so much. Like it's all just one giant entity that swallows everything it touches. I wonder what the ecosystem of the Upside Down was like before the Mind Flayer infection. It is a mirror of our world, but how much so? Like could there of been human like creatures or possibly just a empty world where buildings and shit would pop up waiting for a host to claim it. The fanfic writer in me itches for stuff like that. >.<

I sure hope so. He really pissed me off early in the season by breaking up Mike and El but I started warming up to him once he correctly predicted Alexei would know he had nobody else to go back to since he'd know they would never take him back given he had been compromised.

Honestly, Mike was a little prick. I understand it from both Mike and Hopper's sides. I love Hopper. I really do. I think he's a lot more complex than he sometimes comes off to other people and only a select few get to see that side of him. I think him wearing that awful shirt in S3 was a big step for him. It was him him showing interest in something, showing that he's a dad now, that he has a personality beyond being a cop. It showed a softer side to him...but I hope it's not him. I'm big on the "let a dead character be dead". I want him to have fought that Russian, resigned himself to death, and happy with the choices he made and knowing El would be safe with Mike and Joyce in the end. Bringing him back feels cheap. I'll go along with it if it's him, because I try not to let myself get upset over the decisions of a TV show...but I would prefer it to be someone like Brenner.

Better yet, what the hell are they even fucking around with it for, and how do they not know what they're getting into if they have a pet demogorgon?

Same reason Brenner kept throwing El back into it until she finally cracked a hole in it. Weapons. They're in the cold war right now. Commies are bad, Russia is bad, all that stuff. If they can harness a portal that could potentially let them easily move from place to place with creatures they can weaponize...wouldn't they try? I think my first question about this leads more back to who the 'American' is. If it's Hopper, then we still don't know how they found out. But if it's Brenner, I'm sure he either started out working for them and became a prisoner once they got what they needed or he was always a prisoner and they tortured it out of him.

That would be cool. Feels off having only one of the kids with an ability. But that evolution makes me think El's power getting turned off is going to lead to hers becoming something bigger and better as a result.

Hell yes, they need her more than ever if they're going overseas to save Hopper. Like I was saying, if Will's tingle becomes something more (precognition?) then maybe El's will evolve into something stronger too, and it's just dormant while it grows and will sprout when they need it most.

El is, so far, the strongest of all the test subjects they have shown. Even Kali has a 90second limitation on her power. It took El a considerable amount of time to run herself dry. I really would like to see Will evolve into something more. No one has spent more time in the Upside Down than him. He was both physically attached to the Mind Flayer (when he had that thing in his throat while he was held to the wall in the Upside Down) and mentally (when it infected him). Some sort of precognition would be fitting.

I don't think so. It's already been piecemeal with all the human puddles it congealed into its mutant spider form (hello, yet another It reference) so for the mutant spider to also just be a piecemeal component of an even larger thing doesn't make sense.

Not physically a part of something else, but more of a lesser being to a more powerful being. I guess for this to be true would mean that there would have to be other worlds.

Dunno, nor do I know how the hell they could afford it.

Depends on their intentions for moving. More than just getting out of Hawkins. I'm thinking Chicago (which would bring back Kali) or New York since Joyce mentioned Jonathan wanting to go to NYU in S1. As for cost...I moved at least once every six months until I was fifteen. It doesn't take a lot of money to pick up and move, if you're the irresponsible sort. I don't think Joyce would put her family through that though. I do, however, think she is capable of looking at Sam Owens and saying "Move us" and he does what he can to take care of her family and El. Remember, Joyce has that hotline to the government now.

Billy in season 2 was, I don't believe that to be the case with season 3. It seemed to treat the male and female hosts the same.

I should have worded the question better. I think the overall metaphorical villain for S3 is toxic masculinity. How many times do Joyce and Nancy have to say "Something's wrong" for the men in their lives to start believing them? Why do they have to have an uphill battle to get their point across? Here's a good article about it: The Monster In 'Stranger Things 3' Wasn't The Mind Flayer — It Was Toxic Masculinity.

I would have liked to have seen what made Billy more calm and composed when season 3 started since I was already thinking of him as unredeemable from when he almost killed Steve and then all of a sudden he's a lifeguard and the fantasy of all the MILFs in town? GTFO. I would have been more moved by his sacrifice here if they had shown him turning a new leaf instead of showing the leaf already turned with no explanation.

I think what made him more calm and composed was Max almost nailing his crotch with a baseball bat full of nails and jacking him with a syringe full of sedatives in his neck. I doubt he really calmed down. He just moved on to a different way of getting what he wanted. He can't be the high school bully anymore now that he's out of high school. He's 18 now, his dad would require him to get a job. He'd avoid hard labor as much as possible and what better option for someone who likes to look at himself as much as he does than to be ogled by middle aged women and teenage girls all day? Billy was never a good person. His father turned him into who he was, but he still made the choice to stay that way. I think being a lifeguard was the perfect job for him. Had someone actually got hurt, he would get to be the savior to give them CPR and all the women would fawn over him even more.

I know we were supposed to be moved by his sacrifice...but I wasn't either. All I saw was a prick who, less than a year ago, had tried to run down a group of kids on their bikes for no reason at all other than to mentally abuse his little sister. This is the same argument I have about Darth Vader and Snape. It takes more than one incident to redeem someone.

I don't think it fully had control over him until it festered in his system long enough. Also if the Mind Flayer knew about all the kids he'd know that causing one of their moms to disappear would have them all over his ass faster than anything so it may have been out of simple practicality.

But he took Heather pretty soon after that. Later that same day (if we go by wardrobe). Will was never fully infected, in my mind. He was infected by the non-physical form of the Mind Flayer, where Billy was infected by a physical manifestation of the Mind Flayer. I think Billy was stronger. I also think he saw his own mother in Karen (at least a little). Personally, without crossing the Oedipus complex lines of Billy wanting to fuck his mom, she was a pretty, middle aged, blond woman who took care of her children. He saw his own mother and resisted. We have to assume that the Mind Flayer knows what Billy knows. It didn't fully claim people until the end. What better way to get to El than to Flay her boyfriend's mother send her home, and flay his dad and sister. Had Billy not resisted, that would have been the end of the season. Mike would have been Flayed and got to El before any of them even knew what was going on. So while plot dictate Billy not claim Karen for the Mind Flayer at that point in time to keep the story going; maybe there was a reason he resisted.

Also, he didn't seem to Flay his own father or step mother, which sees like a thing he should have done. Maybe he resisted doing it because he didn't want them as part of his collective mind (his father in particular).

I don't remember who that is so I'll have to watch that part again.

Terry was Eleven's mother. She had a small appearance in S1 and a bigger one in S2 and then flashbacks in S3 of the S2 scenes. The prequel novels go over her involvement in Hawkins lab and her pregnancy with Eleven.

Dustin. I was the fat kid growing up but was very precocious so I identify with him a lot. Plus I was with my grandma at home a lot more than with my mom.

I do love Dustin. He's adorable and the actor for him (and for all the kids really) is phenomenal. I know he does a little broadway (Les Mes) and so does the girl who plays Suzie (she's in the Matilda musical as Matilda).

[Mathim]

One of my friends likened it all to Akira. I think it honestly pulled from a lot of sources. I'm not familiar with Parasite Eve, but I have seen Jack Brooks.

And I'm not familiar with Akira.

My theory is that there are others, but they may take varying degrees of psychic energy to penetrate. The Upside Down happens to be the easiest, which is why a child was able to breech it. Just my wishful thinking, because like weird multiverses.

I just hope not, like I said, it's complicated enough with just the Upside-Down, doing another would be too much to keep track of.

I like the idea of that so much. Like it's all just one giant entity that swallows everything it touches. I wonder what the ecosystem of the Upside Down was like before the Mind Flayer infection. It is a mirror of our world, but how much so? Like could there of been human like creatures or possibly just a empty world where buildings and shit would pop up waiting for a host to claim it. The fanfic writer in me itches for stuff like that. >.<

But then how are the demogorgons and demodogs separate from it? They don't seem to share the same characteristics as it (at least not the meat spider from S3). Maybe they're the flora and the Mind Flayer is the fauna? Would make sense because the formers have that flower-like maw.

Honestly, Mike was a little prick. I understand it from both Mike and Hopper's sides. I love Hopper. I really do. I think he's a lot more complex than he sometimes comes off to other people and only a select few get to see that side of him. I think him wearing that awful shirt in S3 was a big step for him. It was him him showing interest in something, showing that he's a dad now, that he has a personality beyond being a cop. It showed a softer side to him...but I hope it's not him. I'm big on the "let a dead character be dead". I want him to have fought that Russian, resigned himself to death, and happy with the choices he made and knowing El would be safe with Mike and Joyce in the end. Bringing him back feels cheap. I'll go along with it if it's him, because I try not to let myself get upset over the decisions of a TV show...but I would prefer it to be someone like Brenner.

Oh, give him a break. Hopper scared him and he had the added trouble of not wanting to turn El against her father and create a huge drama. He was too young and probably hadn't seen enough movies to understand how those contrived romantic situations get resolved to come up with a good solution. But I hope it's him because there's no one on the show to replace him. Nobody else has that forceful personality running on high gear all the time and has that same physically imposing figure or the authority to wield it. At least if Will developed a power he could replace El's role (not that I think she's retired as a powered character).

Same reason Brenner kept throwing El back into it until she finally cracked a hole in it. Weapons. They're in the cold war right now. Commies are bad, Russia is bad, all that stuff. If they can harness a portal that could potentially let them easily move from place to place with creatures they can weaponize...wouldn't they try? I think my first question about this leads more back to who the 'American' is. If it's Hopper, then we still don't know how they found out. But if it's Brenner, I'm sure he either started out working for them and became a prisoner once they got what they needed or he was always a prisoner and they tortured it out of him.

But they clearly had no control over it and if the Russians had spies they ought to have known that too. It takes a truly stunted mentality to think that one is capable of succeeding where someone else failed (I'm not that up on history, did Chernobyl already happen when the show takes place? If it had, then that is an even greater ding against them doing that for any sane reason.)

El is, so far, the strongest of all the test subjects they have shown. Even Kali has a 90second limitation on her power. It took El a considerable amount of time to run herself dry. I really would like to see Will evolve into something more. No one has spent more time in the Upside Down than him. He was both physically attached to the Mind Flayer (when he had that thing in his throat while he was held to the wall in the Upside Down) and mentally (when it infected him). Some sort of precognition would be fitting.

That or possibly teleportation upon further inspection. Him being part of two worlds just makes that feel like it would work.

Not physically a part of something else, but more of a lesser being to a more powerful being. I guess for this to be true would mean that there would have to be other worlds.

If that's how it chooses to manifest itself I'm guessing it's a similar shape in its true form. Not sure if that's how it always was or if its absorption of other worlds has grown it or made it deviate from its original form from bloating up on whatever matter it devoured or the energy it gained. Maybe it started out as a colony and, becoming a hive mind, just naturally coalesced into a deformed whole, and that's why it continues to operate as a hive queen using other things as drones, be they the demogorgon/demodogs or humans?

Depends on their intentions for moving. More than just getting out of Hawkins. I'm thinking Chicago (which would bring back Kali) or New York since Joyce mentioned Jonathan wanting to go to NYU in S1. As for cost...I moved at least once every six months until I was fifteen. It doesn't take a lot of money to pick up and move, if you're the irresponsible sort. I don't think Joyce would put her family through that though. I do, however, think she is capable of looking at Sam Owens and saying "Move us" and he does what he can to take care of her family and El. Remember, Joyce has that hotline to the government now.

I mean I guess if they sold their house in Hawkins, but if she didn't have a steady source of income how would any housing loan company agree to give her a loan to buy another house? It wasn't like she was working anything other than what seemed like a minimum wage job and I have no idea what Johnathan was bringing home on a monthly basis.

I should have worded the question better. I think the overall metaphorical villain for S3 is toxic masculinity. How many times do Joyce and Nancy have to say "Something's wrong" for the men in their lives to start believing them? Why do they have to have an uphill battle to get their point across? Here's a good article about it: The Monster In 'Stranger Things 3' Wasn't The Mind Flayer — It Was Toxic Masculinity.

I see. I wasn't paying too much attention to that outside of Gary Busey and the other newspaper guys' misogyny but ultimately they got theirs by being converted into the Mind Flayer's flesh vessel. Steve being respectful of Robin's sexuality and not continuing to press the issue kind of impressed me once they got it all out in the open considering Steve's personality. And I think we all expected the Russian interrogators to be a hell of a lot rougher with him than with Robin. I have to say, I hated how Max was pushing El into doing what she wanted just out of spite rather than encouraging reconciliation. They could have easily forced Mike to do some humiliating things to make penance for lying and gotten their satisfaction that way instead of making things worse all along the way.

I think what made him more calm and composed was Max almost nailing his crotch with a baseball bat full of nails and jacking him with a syringe full of sedatives in his neck. I doubt he really calmed down. He just moved on to a different way of getting what he wanted. He can't be the high school bully anymore now that he's out of high school. He's 18 now, his dad would require him to get a job. He'd avoid hard labor as much as possible and what better option for someone who likes to look at himself as much as he does than to be ogled by middle aged women and teenage girls all day? Billy was never a good person. His father turned him into who he was, but he still made the choice to stay that way. I think being a lifeguard was the perfect job for him. Had someone actually got hurt, he would get to be the savior to give them CPR and all the women would fawn over him even more.

I don't think one incident, in spite of how severe, would have made him calm down. Something else from their dad, maybe, about shipping him off to the military or worse if he stepped out of line again might have made more sense and wouldn't have taken long to show so I would have rather seen that type of thing. Max may be tough but she's not exactly intimidating, especially to her big brother. But you're right about the lifeguard thing, cushy, low effort, lots of attention and opportunity for scoring with ladies who think he can walk on water.

I know we were supposed to be moved by his sacrifice...but I wasn't either. All I saw was a prick who, less than a year ago, had tried to run down a group of kids on their bikes for no reason at all other than to mentally abuse his little sister. This is the same argument I have about Darth Vader and Snape. It takes more than one incident to redeem someone.

I mean, I am impressed he was able to fight off its control being patient zero and all but I'm not sure how it infected him, did he get a mouthful of its rat goo or what? If the transmission method was different maybe that's why he didn't get mulched. But yeah, that wasn't nearly enough and way too little, way too late. Maybe if the dad was abusing Max and he stepped in to stop it in a flashback, taking a hard hit and the dad getting arrested as a result would have been a good way to show Billy turning it around and learning how shitty being that type of person was. But no.

But he took Heather pretty soon after that. Later that same day (if we go by wardrobe). Will was never fully infected, in my mind. He was infected by the non-physical form of the Mind Flayer, where Billy was infected by a physical manifestation of the Mind Flayer. I think Billy was stronger. I also think he saw his own mother in Karen (at least a little). Personally, without crossing the Oedipus complex lines of Billy wanting to fuck his mom, she was a pretty, middle aged, blond woman who took care of her children. He saw his own mother and resisted. We have to assume that the Mind Flayer knows what Billy knows. It didn't fully claim people until the end. What better way to get to El than to Flay her boyfriend's mother send her home, and flay his dad and sister. Had Billy not resisted, that would have been the end of the season. Mike would have been Flayed and got to El before any of them even knew what was going on. So while plot dictate Billy not claim Karen for the Mind Flayer at that point in time to keep the story going; maybe there was a reason he resisted.

That's why I'm curious what the method of control was for him versus Heather and all the others. He didn't get mulched-why? What was the practical purpose of keeping a human around when the blobs were much faster, deadlier and more flexible for chasing after and dispatching prey? Billy just grabbing El by the neck wasn't half as effective as biting her and implanting one of its remnants under her skin.

Also, he didn't seem to Flay his own father or step mother, which sees like a thing he should have done. Maybe he resisted doing it because he didn't want them as part of his collective mind (his father in particular).

Was he living at home? I don't even remember if we saw the parents outside the flashbacks. Also there's the fact that any connection to him or any of his particular targets like El or her circle of friends would have put a target on him and he wanted to avoid that.

Terry was Eleven's mother. She had a small appearance in S1 and a bigger one in S2 and then flashbacks in S3 of the S2 scenes. The prequel novels go over her involvement in Hawkins lab and her pregnancy with Eleven.

The practically catatonic lady? I don't remember her having powers too...got to watch that again. If they're passed on genetically then there's precedent for them being able to be inherited so maybe Will can get access to more of that through his brief possession by the Mind Flayer after all. And if El's a second-generation telekinetic, there's no telling what more potential she has. I really do think she's in a 'cocoon' stage of her powers and they'll come back in a much more powerful way.

I do love Dustin. He's adorable and the actor for him (and for all the kids really) is phenomenal. I know he does a little broadway (Les Mes) and so does the girl who plays Suzie (she's in the Matilda musical as Matilda).

LOL, such a cute couple. I did love the movie Matilda. I wouldn't mind them doing another of that, but Danny DeVito did a great job with it. Maybe have it actually be with people from Roald Dahl's native land, though.

[Jag]

I'll get to some more discussion responses later today. I have to run out. But I wanted to share some bags I got today. I found an Etsy shop that upcycles vintage bags by handpainting them. Makes each one unique as the shop owner is unlikely to find that same bag again. Anyway, she sent me two of her bags (super cheap too).

Upside Down Clutch
Clutch Closeup: Mike, Eleven, Dusting, and Lucas on bikes.
Clutch Closeup: Will running from the Demogorgon.

Red handbag with Mind Flayer.
Mind Flayer Closeup.

^__^

[Thete]

I just adore the Flayer. Want to give him the biggest cuddle. >_> I was so glad there was more of him this series. So, naturally, he's my favourite.

Really suspecting Hopper is The American. He dropped a huge hint towards it I believe in an interview.

Honestly, what I want to know is why is the Upside Down there? What is it, why does it exist, what does the Flayer want (is it akin to Pennywise now where it's partially a grudge against the kids), and how accurately, or even how and why, does it reflect the real world?

[Jag]

And I'm not familiar with Akira.

1988 anime movie. Replace the kids on motorcycles with kids on regular bikes. Blobby monster that absorbs everything it touches. Government experiments with children telepaths/telekinetics....difference being lots of drugs and sex (especially the manga) and a whole lot more violence. Still, there are similarities.

Oh, give him a break. Hopper scared him and he had the added trouble of not wanting to turn El against her father and create a huge drama. He was too young and probably hadn't seen enough movies to understand how those contrived romantic situations get resolved to come up with a good solution. But I hope it's him because there's no one on the show to replace him. Nobody else has that forceful personality running on high gear all the time and has that same physically imposing figure or the authority to wield it. At least if Will developed a power he could replace El's role (not that I think she's retired as a powered character).

I do give Mike a lot of breaks. He was upset with Hopper for keeping El from him for almost a year. He's also an upper middle class boy in a small town. Despite being one of the 'nerdy' kids in school and bullied a bit; he's likely used to getting what he wants in a way that Lucas (as a black boy), Dustin (a boy with a medical condition), and Will (child of a broken home, Zombie Boy, and likely barely living over the poverty line) aren't used to. I understand his disrespectful behavior towards Hopper in the beginning as much as I understand Hopper's freak out. Hopper went from being alone and having lost his first child at a young age to suddenly having a teenage girl who comes with heavy baggage (boyfriend already, little socialization, no schooling, super powers, and a heavy dose of childhood trauma). He reacted in a way that was easiest for him. I get it and I don't fault either of them for their behaviors.

Personally, I think Hopper jumped into the Upside Down before the gate was closed. I think 'The American' is Brenner and a part of Season 4 will focus on rescuing Hopper from the Upside Down. I'd prefer him to have his death and stay dead to keep it meaningful...but if he has to come back, I don't want them to have already revealed it in a end credit scene. I think the Duffer Brothers are more clever than that.

But they clearly had no control over it and if the Russians had spies they ought to have known that too. It takes a truly stunted mentality to think that one is capable of succeeding where someone else failed (I'm not that up on history, did Chernobyl already happen when the show takes place? If it had, then that is an even greater ding against them doing that for any sane reason.)

The failings of the Americans would be seen as more of a challenge. To push them to succeed where the Americans failed. Thinking themselves smarter and stronger. They captured a demogorgon/demodog and have been able to keep it. They probably already feel like they have a one up. They don't know about the Mind Flayer. They only know about the existence of another world that could possibly be weaponized in some way.

Chernobyl hasn't happened yet. Season 3 ends (epilogue scene) in October 1985. Chernobyl won't happen until April of 1986.

I don't think one incident, in spite of how severe, would have made him calm down. Something else from their dad, maybe, about shipping him off to the military or worse if he stepped out of line again might have made more sense and wouldn't have taken long to show so I would have rather seen that type of thing. Max may be tough but she's not exactly intimidating, especially to her big brother. But you're right about the lifeguard thing, cushy, low effort, lots of attention and opportunity for scoring with ladies who think he can walk on water.

Max seemed to be a primary target for his abuse. Given the look she gives Billy before the Snow Ball, he remembers very well what she did to him. It's also likely that she threatened him after that. We don't know how Max got home that night after everything happened. Billy was on strict orders to go out and find his sister. If she turned up at home without him, he would be in for it when he did wake up and haul himself home. Even more since Max stole his car and he had to find it or explain where it went (we know he gets it back, because he has it in S3). Max would have been pushed down his totem pole of easy targets after everything that happened that night. Out of high school, manipulating married women to cheat on their husbands is a safer option than risking his sister nailing his crotch with a baseball bat and his dad's wrath for messing with his sister again.

I mean, I am impressed he was able to fight off its control being patient zero and all but I'm not sure how it infected him, did he get a mouthful of its rat goo or what? If the transmission method was different maybe that's why he didn't get mulched. But yeah, that wasn't nearly enough and way too little, way too late. Maybe if the dad was abusing Max and he stepped in to stop it in a flashback, taking a hard hit and the dad getting arrested as a result would have been a good way to show Billy turning it around and learning how shitty being that type of person was. But no.

That's why I'm curious what the method of control was for him versus Heather and all the others. He didn't get mulched-why? What was the practical purpose of keeping a human around when the blobs were much faster, deadlier and more flexible for chasing after and dispatching prey? Billy just grabbing El by the neck wasn't half as effective as biting her and implanting one of its remnants under her skin.

Was he living at home? I don't even remember if we saw the parents outside the flashbacks. Also there's the fact that any connection to him or any of his particular targets like El or her circle of friends would have put a target on him and he wanted to avoid that.

I believe they were all infected similarly. Either by the rats who were infected or by the semi-formed Mind Flayer. He didn't infect Billy any differently. Will was the only one infected differently (via Shadow Monster rather than physical Mind Flayer). Billy was, however, the only one who did not ingest a high level of chemicals/toxins. We see him go into the pool room, likely to start ingesting pool chemicals, but he doesn't get a chance to because Karen shows up. It's likely he never became part of the full Mind Flayer because the Mind Flayer needed him to get to Eleven. Allowed him to continue being human until El was caught and sacrificed. Chances are that if the Mind Flayer had been successful, Billy would have been incorporated into the Mind Flayer. As a human, Billy was more useful. He was strong bodied, young, and semi-knowledgeable about the kids.

Now that I think about it, Billy did show a lack of a hive mind even futher into his infection. After the sauna fight scene, he is seen with Heather at the steel factory. He's upset that she beat the snot out of him and mentions "She could have killed me", but Heather tells him "But she can't kill us". Billy was concerned for his own self preservation. Heather was basically berating him for feeling this way. Saying that it was okay for him to be killed, because Eleven couldn't kill the Mind Flayer.

As for him living at home, I know Max and El go snooping through his room looking for clues to where he could be. I assume he was still living at home for them to be able to do that.

The practically catatonic lady? I don't remember her having powers too...got to watch that again. If they're passed on genetically then there's precedent for them being able to be inherited so maybe Will can get access to more of that through his brief possession by the Mind Flayer after all. And if El's a second-generation telekinetic, there's no telling what more potential she has. I really do think she's in a 'cocoon' stage of her powers and they'll come back in a much more powerful way.

Yeah, the catatonic lady. She could make the lights flicker and her nose would bleed like Eleven and Eight. I know in the prequel novel it mentions her being part of a government experiment to see if people could access abilities through heavy use of psychedelic drugs. It's unknown if she always had powers and the drugs just woke them or if the drugs allowed her into that black void state and that's what woke them. Either way, it isn't known what all she actually could do.

I do think El has a long way to go and we only saw a glimpse of it when she fought the Mind Flayer at the end of S2. When she lifted herself off the ground all Jean Grey and going all Phoenix style on it's ass. >.<

I just adore the Flayer. Want to give him the biggest cuddle. >_> I was so glad there was more of him this series. So, naturally, he's my favourite.

Really suspecting Hopper is The American. He dropped a huge hint towards it I believe in an interview.

Honestly, what I want to know is why is the Upside Down there? What is it, why does it exist, what does the Flayer want (is it akin to Pennywise now where it's partially a grudge against the kids), and how accurately, or even how and why, does it reflect the real world?

I have a love for the Mind Flayer too. I was glad to get more of his 'personality' in this season. Even if it was through the 'Flayed', they were speaking for him. It shows that he's not a mindless being. He has a goal (and apparently a grudge towards El specifically now).

It would be nice to get more information about the Upside Down itself. If it's always been that way, if the Mind Flayer made it that way, etc...

[Mathim]

If the Upside-Down was a parallel reality that the Mind Flayer devoured and turned into its own thing (like terraforming it for itself, or infecting it like a virus...given its nature, that's not unlikely), then maybe it's not going to consider its job done until it has also consumed the Rightside-Up. Two sides of the same coin and ours was the lucky world that didn't fall first.

Is it possible that the demo-monsters are the inhabitants of that world after it's gotten through corrupting them into its vassals? Then they're not necessarily a hive mind, they're just obedient or easily trained or very susceptible to its influence. That would explain why Dart, absent of the strong influence of the Flayer, was able to be tamed by Dustin when it counted. If it was purely a creature of the Mind Flayer's, it wouldn't have done anything so out of character. Its nature may be savage but it's clearly separate from the Flayer.

If Hopper did indeed enter the Upside-Down just to prolong his life for however long it might be compared to getting blown up, that gives a tinge of hope. If he can assert dominance on some fledgling demodogs he might be able to survive long enough to be rescued. If Murry is the American he might be the one closest to getting Hopper out of there. Kind of weird having the kids involved in something that now spans the Atlantic and all of Western Europe if the action will be continuing in Russia but if Will learns to teleport via a connection to the Upside-Down, who knows.

[Jag]

Jag's S4 theory

Opening scene will be Chernobyl melting down in April 1986 and the Russians seeing the gate feeding off the energy put off by the melt down and expanding out of their control. Likely 10x the rate it was expanding when El opened the first one in Hawkins.

Back in Chicago where the Byers moved, El reconnects with Kali. They have another 'sisterly' moment where Kali says that losing her powers isn't the worst thing in the world.

Joyce brings Will and El back to Hawkins for Christmas with their friends. Will starts having his spidey sense/now memory shit acting up and seeing Hopper in the Upside Down. Joyce will find a way to connect with him the way she did Will in S1. Probably even bring back the Christmas lights from S1 to speak to him since El is still powerless. Will and El will work together to get El's powers back so that she, Max, and the boys can rescue him from the Upside Down.

Meanwhile in Russia, the gate is out of control and it's revealed that the 'American' is Dr. Brenner from S1. Rather than allowing himself to be arrested went to the Russians instead. Once they got what they wanted from him, they just tossed his ass in the cell. Maybe he was all high and mighty with them before hand and decided to lock him up after they were done with him. The gate allows not only more Demogorgons and Demodogs through, but some new demo-monster too and it actually large enough for the Mind Flayer to start forcing it's way through. Demogorgon eats Dr. Brenner (cause that would just be satisfying to watch).

Russia realizes it's not going to survive this and finally turns to the Americans for help. Dr. Owens (the one who took over Hawkins Lab, got El her birth certificate and adoption to Hopper, and kept the lab from killing Will right away when he was infected) uses his government connections to get El, the kids, and Hopper/Joyce (cause she won't go without her party) to Russia for a final fight with the Mind Flayer. El looks like she's going to lose, despite having her powers back, and remembers what Kali told her about losing her powers not being a terrible thing. El goes all out on the Mind Flayer, managing to finally kill it's true form (cause what we saw in S3 was just a personification of it), but she extends herself so far this time that her powers are truly gone once and for all.

Back in America, Joyce moves her family back to Hawkins. Because as good for them as a change of scenery was, Hawkins is still their home.

End scene would show the Upside Down. All the beings of the Mind Flayer's hive mind are dying off and the 'pulsing' organic matter that covers most things starts to decay. The ashy air starts to clear and we see one of the eggs the Demogorgon was seeing eating from start to hatch with spots of green grass poking out of the decaying matter around it.

May or may not have got into a S4 discussion a few times over the last few days. >.<

The happy ending is, of course, provided they do no confirm a S5.

Also, Tiny Spawn really likes Stranger Things too. Her favorite episode in the S2 Finale. When El puts her hand up in front of the gate to start closing it, she always stands up and puts her hand up too. I bought her a ST poster at Walmart. She came home from school that day and saw it on the wall in her room and got so excited. It was great. ^^

[Mathim]

No guess as to how El would get her powers back, Jag? Or speculation that Will's would evolve into something more? Possibly even that it would work in conjunction with El's, so they become like a Wonder Twins kind of duo?

[Jag]

No guess as to how El would get her powers back, Jag?

Love, of course. Cause isn't that the trope? Power of Love and all. Right now, they think everything is done. Gate closed, Russians gone, Mind Flayer dead, etc...she has no reason to really get her powers back. But through the Power of Love all is possible (please imagine me saying this in a cheesy, semi-sarcastic voice). But seriously, she has no reason to attempt to get her powers back until she realizes Hopper needs her. That she's the only one who can save him. She wants to save her father.

Or speculation that Will's would evolve into something more? Possibly even that it would work in conjunction with El's, so they become like a Wonder Twins kind of duo?

I'm sure Will is going to get to do more than touch the back of his neck because his spidey sense is tingling. Maybe in the final fight he can use his connection to the Mind Flayer to help disable it. Get inside it's head like it did to him. Slow it down for El. Of course this goes away once El finally kills it. He goes back to just being Will Byers after that, no more spidey sense (provided S4 is the final season).

[Jag]

Is it wrong that I have considered purchasing this as a year round yard decoration?

I want to put it on my porch and in the winter I will put christmas lights around it. >.>

[Mathim]

I think people may either mistake it for the Super Vagina thing from Prometheus, or just think it's an abstract one like something by Georgia O'Keefe.

[Jag]

I'm okay with either of those, honestly. ^^

My neighbors already think I'm some sort of satanic witch or something. May as well have a vagina monster in my yard.

[Vulnicura]

If having Vagina Monsters is in my yard is wrong, I don't want to be right.

Coincidentally, I'm forever going to refer to the Demogorgon as The Vagina Monster now.

[Mathim]

Well I can't take the credit for that, I got the Super Vagina thing from the Honest Trailers channel during their Prometheus video.