Electric Vehicles and Renewable Energies

Started by GloomCookie, June 14, 2022, 04:17:09 AM

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GloomCookie

Hi everyone!

So, I'm creating a thread that's spun off from my original discussion (found here) about renewable energy and thought I'd bring in electric vehicles, since those are also big right now.

A little background on me before we begin, since this explains where I come from. First, I am not an expert on renewables, but I do have a Bachelors of Science in Electrical Engineering, I have worked in commercial power distribution design since 2015, and I am currently working on getting my professional engineering license. I have made it a point to become well versed in regulations concerning the three major energy codes in the United States (ASHRAE 90.1, International Energy Conservation Code, and California DOE Title 24 Part 6), and the topic is really starting to take off due to this.

On January 1, 2023, California DOE Title 24 Part 6 for the 2022 code cycle (Most codes take effect the year after they're published) takes effect. It includes provisions that all commercial buildings (it may include industrial but since it's outside my wheelhouse I don't track it) must include a minimum square footage of solar panels and a means of storing that energy on-site in the form of batteries and an inverter. Currently, the 2024 International Energy Conservation Code (IECC) has opened public discussion for the inclusion of similar provisions that will take effect in some jurisdictions beginning in 2025.

The reason this is a bit controversial is because in my industry, we're currently facing two major issues: Long lead times (meaning the time it takes between placing an order for equipment and receiving it on site) and a looming shortage of Lithium-ion batteries, which are currently the market standard for batteries. And it's that last point that I feel needs discussion because as it currently stands, we're about to run headlong into a major problem sourcing the materials for the batteries that will redefine power consumption in the next few decades.

https://youtu.be/9dnN82DsQ2k

The other major factor is lead time. Every industry is different, but companies like Eaton, Schneider Electric, ABB, etc. have posted that they're looking at incredibly long lead times to get gear manufactured. This includes other industries like HVAC as well, with some manufacturers projecting that new orders won't be fulfilled until at least 2023. The reason this is a major issue is because with various governments banning internal combustion engines, we're going to see much more reliance on electric vehicles, which is going to demand more electrical equipment which in turn will take a while to implement. I personally think that through sheer necessity we're going to see some of these mandates pushed back, but I'm not 100% certain on that.

Now, let me go ahead and say that I think the move towards renewable energy and all is great, we're moving in a positive direction, but it's also a pain in my ass because this is going to generate paperwork for me. But, my whining aside, I wanted to also offer myself for anyone contemplating an electric vehicle or home renewables and what you, the consumer, need to know if you plan on doing any of this. Also, please please PLEASE be aware that I am familiar mainly with the National Electric Code and International Building Codes as they apply to the United States only. I can possibly answer questions for our lovely friends in Canada and Mexico, but I can only speculate on the requirements as they stand in Europe. You guys use totally different power generation equipment and standards.

So anyway, let's discuss and I'm open to answering any questions you might have about renewables and electric vehicles.
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Dashenka

I'm curious to hear your opinion on the life expectancy of car batteries.



I like electric cars and the novelty that they bring. Europe is nowhere near the charging infrastructure the US has and while a large proportion of trips are done well within range of even the more modest EV's, this for a lot of people is still a factor. What if I run out of charge halfway.

All that aside, there's a few major hurdles to take before the world can switch to full EV. The UK has set a date at which all cars sold new have to be EV and that date is coming closer and closer.

The first problem is the excess power available. Most people will charge their cars at night and from I hear, there isn't nearly enough capacity on the mains to give that demand. Currently, on peak hours at a fast charger with four other cars next to you, you will get nowhere near the promised charging speed.

Secondly and for me the main reason not to switch, yet, is the battery longevity. How long will the batteries perform to factory standards and how long until it has to be replaced? And even more importantly, what happens with the batteries that have run out? Or with the batteries of wrecked vehicles? Are they recycled? What is the impact of the batteries, both the manufacturing process as well as the recycling process to the environment?

While the EV's themselves have zero emission, their process of manufacturing definitely has not. I wish there was more attention to this, instead of all jumping on the EV bandwagon blindly. They have the future, I reluctantly agree (would have preferred if the hydrogen option would be explored more) but at the moment, I'm not too sure if an EV is cleaner than a modern day petrol powered car.
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RedRose

It must be VERY impractical to charge them. We looked into renewable heating and a/c and in the end... Were told it just wouldn't work well for a house. So unless we wanted, like 15 degrees in winter... We went for normal. I WISH there was a way. A neighbour has solar pannels and... most of the time its useless.
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GloomCookie

Quote from: Dashenka on June 21, 2022, 08:44:20 AM
I'm curious to hear your opinion on the life expectancy of car batteries.



I like electric cars and the novelty that they bring. Europe is nowhere near the charging infrastructure the US has and while a large proportion of trips are done well within range of even the more modest EV's, this for a lot of people is still a factor. What if I run out of charge halfway.

All that aside, there's a few major hurdles to take before the world can switch to full EV. The UK has set a date at which all cars sold new have to be EV and that date is coming closer and closer.

The first problem is the excess power available. Most people will charge their cars at night and from I hear, there isn't nearly enough capacity on the mains to give that demand. Currently, on peak hours at a fast charger with four other cars next to you, you will get nowhere near the promised charging speed.

Secondly and for me the main reason not to switch, yet, is the battery longevity. How long will the batteries perform to factory standards and how long until it has to be replaced? And even more importantly, what happens with the batteries that have run out? Or with the batteries of wrecked vehicles? Are they recycled? What is the impact of the batteries, both the manufacturing process as well as the recycling process to the environment?

While the EV's themselves have zero emission, their process of manufacturing definitely has not. I wish there was more attention to this, instead of all jumping on the EV bandwagon blindly. They have the future, I reluctantly agree (would have preferred if the hydrogen option would be explored more) but at the moment, I'm not too sure if an EV is cleaner than a modern day petrol powered car.

Hey there! So, battery longevity is a major issue. My Great Uncle (Mom's Uncle) bought an electric vehicle and ended up with a vehicle after about 5 to 10 years that was simply not worth the investment to get it back operational. The problem is that these battery packs have a finite lifetime before they lose their ability to take and maintain a full charge.

Here's an article from Car & Driver discussing the matter, and that all manufacturers guarantee the batteries for 8 years or 100,000 miles (160934.4 km), but some of them sneak in fine print like the battery must COMPLETELY die and cannot take a charge, which is pretty rare, while others will do a percentage like 60% battery loss.

The article does mention heat and I want to emphasize that batteries would NOT do well here where I live. It's currently 93F (33.8C) and it's late in the evening in June. It's going to get HOT this summer, because more than once last week I went to my truck and the temperature was above 100F (37.8C). That is going to play hell on batteries because higher temps mean the batteries won't last as long, both in the charge they hold and the longevity of the batteries. They're also not deep-cycle batteries, which are actually meant to be recharged with fresh acid on a regular basis to keep them operating for long periods (though with very low discharge rates).

I highly doubt Arkansas will pass laws banning gasoline engines, but that change may not be in our hands. In 2020, California registered 14,210,400 vehicles, while Texas came in second with 8,088,058, Florida at 7,841,553, Ohio at 4,247,843, and so on. Of the 14 million vehicles registered, 100,549 were EV sales in 2019 (the last year I have figures for). That's still not a lot, but as those numbers grow, car manufacturers will produce more EV vehicles because most manufacturers follow California standards, not the USDOT. As this happens, oil producers realize that there's no market for gasoline coming, so they're already increasing prices across the board to squeeze profits while they still can. That's going to make owning a gasoline vehicle prohibitively expensive to the point that when no one buys them and parking lots fill with gasoline vehicles that can't be sold because they're just too expensive, it'll be forced on other states.

Which sucks, because currently to visit my parents it's a 6 hour drive across 300 miles (482.8km) to see them. Even that long, it is still cheaper to drive than it is to fly and takes roughly the same amount of time once I hit a major hub and fly to the closest airport to them, which is an hour away. An electric vehicle will not get me to where I want to go because of the range limitations, and my next trip to see them is going to be in July, which is blistering hot with high temperatures that would derate those batteries to the point I can't count on them to get me there on a single charge.

Quote from: RedRose on June 21, 2022, 10:01:20 AM
It must be VERY impractical to charge them. We looked into renewable heating and a/c and in the end... Were told it just wouldn't work well for a house. So unless we wanted, like 15 degrees in winter... We went for normal. I WISH there was a way. A neighbour has solar pannels and... most of the time its useless.
Solar power is spotty depending on where you are and what time of year it is. Unless you're going to buy some of those solar panels that track the sun, you only get optimal coverage for a few hours each day, and unless it's during peak times you're really not doing much.

I hate to say it but solar and PV is not the greatest option for renewables, but it's the option everyone's latched onto. The bulk of the grid is still going to be powered from conventional sources, and while we're moving in the right direction, there's just too much variability with renewables that they still need coal and natural gas to catch those periods when it falls below demand. Don't get me wrong, I am glad we're moving away from coal and natural gas, but I fear people think solar panels are the perfect solution because they won't listen to the consequences and just assume it's better because it doesn't produce smoke.
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greenknight

FWIW, Tesla's battery warranty is unlimited mileage and the entire battery system is climate controlled. The latter just means you run the car even when it's unoccupied to cool the batteries so they don't get damaged by heat.

When it comes to solar, it's all about location, location, location. My system gives me ~115% of usage, but my roofs are always lit. My six year old car wouldn't make a 300 mile trip, but the newer models will, with some to spare, even using power to cool the batteries. 250-300 miles is a realistic planning range for new EVs that are meant to actually be cars.
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Dashenka

I'm not talking about warranty. That's a legal mess nobody has time for, especially when it comes to Tesla. But my opinion on Tesla is irrelevant here :)


So let's say a car needs a new battery pack every 5 to 10 years. I think the reasonable lifespan and usability of cars, at least European cars is, generally speaking, 20 years. So each car in its lifetime would need 2 to 4 batteries. Probably even more because the technology is moving so quickly that a ten year old full electric car is so outdated, most people will want a new one.

That is a lot of effort and environmental impact for one car.


It's the same with solar panels. We have recently rebuilt our house to make it as energy efficient as possible and some of the processes really made me wonder.

We have solar panels. They had to be fabricated from mined, fracked and melted materials from all over the world shipped to the manufacturer. They then had to use energy to make the panels and then use energy to get the lorry (or semi) to my house. They came with a crew of four. All four presumable went to the their yard using their own cars. They then needed a crane, operated by a guy who also used his car to their yard to get the panels on the roof.

All of that effort and impact just to power my house.



I am no expert and I have never seen the numbers on this but seeing all that effort for my house, it made me wonder if just plugging into the mains wouldn't have been better for the environment than all this.

The same question goes for EV's. The effort it takes to make a battery, knowing a car needs 2 or 3 in its lifetime, isn't it better for the environment to just fill it up with petrol (gas) or diesel?

And then the question obviously of what to do with the used batteries. They probably have to be collected by a lorry (semi) and transported and all that.
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Dashenka

Quote from: GloomCookie on June 21, 2022, 06:52:52 PM
but I fear people think solar panels are the perfect solution because they won't listen to the consequences and just assume it's better because it doesn't produce smoke.

To summarize, I think you are spot on with this. But it's the same with EV's I think for the reasons I mentioned above :)
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I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Oniya

Gasoline powered cars require batteries as well - and they last 3-5 years, according to AAA.  These are made with lead, lead dioxide, and sulfuric acid.  Both lead-acid and lithium ion batteries can be recycled (and should be!) - they are even more recyclable than the glass bottles that you put out at the curb or take to your local recycling drop-off.

However, when the lithium ion battery is no longer quite strong enough to power a car, they're still plenty strong, and can be repurposed before they even have to get to that plant.  Street lights, elevators, data centers, even stabilizing less constant power sources like wind and solar.
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Dashenka

Can be. But are they yet? And at what cost (both for the environment compared to running on fuel and money)?

When I return my car to get new batteries installed, will my dealer give the batteries away to be repurposed for what you said? Or will they sell them? And if they do, are the people responsible for fitting them to streetlights (usually some form of government) willing to pay for recycled batteries? How stable is the supply of those 'old' batteries? Is it stable enough to keep the streetlights running or keep the elevators working all the time?

Repurposing anything is a bit of a hornets nest of different interests and money I think.

QuoteSince lithium-ion battery-powered cars are just now coming to the mass market, the recycling centers that can reclaim their components are still in their infancy too. There is still much to be done to improve the efficiency of our battery recycling processes.

More importantly, we must consider how critical it is that manufacturers include recycling plans when they manufacture electric cars in the first place. Auto manufacturers should be considering what will happen to the batteries in the cars they make as part of the manufacturing process. By having a “cradle to grave” plan for the batteries in electric cars, the automotive industry can do a lot to improve our environment and perhaps even increase profits.

That means that a) we're not recycling them enough yet and b) the responsibility of recycling said batteries is not sorted yet either. Car manufacturers will only adopt a said cradle to the grave policy if they make money out of it. This article doesn't state how that would work, despite making the claim it could increase profits. If they don't make money, they either won't do it, or charge the customer for the extra costs.


I understand what you are saying and in the perfect world that would work. I would really want it to work as well. Recycling or, better yet, re-using is something I wholly believe in and stand for. Unfortunately I don't think we live in a perfect world.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Humble Scribe

Solar panels on average pay for the emissions cost of making and installing them in about 2-6 years compared to the average of fossil fuel power, depending on lattitude. Obviously they're more efficient closer to the equator, but even in rainy Britain they are a net benefit.

None of this is easy. It's going to mean building new supply chains and dedicated recycling centres, and will need government intervention in the form of laws and incentive schemes. We're replacing a whole existing supply chain, from drilling oil to shipping it to refining it to distributing it via gas stations, with a lot of sunk costs. If you had to build that all of that gasoline infrastructure from scratch tomorrow, it would also be expensive. But what will be even more expensive is a world where coastal cities are underwater, the southwest of the US is a desert hellscape where nothing lives and grain can only be grown in Canada.
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GloomCookie

I'm 100% in agreement with Humble Scribe. I sometimes hate how much effort this stuff is going to add to my already considerable workload, but it's the way things are, I just have to deal with it. Same with every technology, we adapt and change as it becomes normalized. Humans can be incredibly lazy and Dashenka is right that sometimes it is easier just to connect to the mains, but would it be better? Doubtful.

One of my favorite games is a logistics based game and one of the things that annoys me is setting up initial infrastructure, because it can feel like a chore and there's little direct benefit. But, that initial infrastructure is enough to enable other things that I need later on that I'll be hard pressed to do as efficiently or cheaply. Same with solar panels. The first people to buy solar panels probably thought they were expensive as hell and didn't produce much power, but those initial purchases helped drive the cost down. As more people buy solar panels and prices drop, they become cheaper and easier as more and more industries switch to making them or auxiliary components such as mounting brackets and the like.

Yes, right now we have a ton of gasoline powered cars on the road and they're still reasonably cost effective to purchase and maintain. That's gonna change though, and eventually the only cars still using gasoline will be older antiques that are maintained solely out of nostalgia, and even those will likely eventually be adapted for EV. An industry that did similar was antique railroads. Almost every single antique railroad out there with steam locomotives has converted their engines to run on oil instead of coal, because it's cleaner, more efficient, and doesn't release sparks and cinders that had a notorious habit of catching dry grass on fire. Was it expensive? Yes it was. Is it worth it? Yes it was, because the cost of maintaining them as they were simply cost too much. Coal is only mined in a few places, while bulk oil is available almost anywhere, plus the lawsuits from fires and the cost of water and other materials just made it cost prohibitive.

https://youtu.be/NzoXCmn1isA

I imagine we'll see a lot more conversions like this in the future as gasoline starts to disappear. That, or we'll see a lot more cottage industry of biodiesel and ethanol, which requires a permit that is easy to get but does require regular inspection to make sure you're not producing hard liquor for drinking. Given that's the case, I imagine we might see small, home grown fuel plants producing limited quantities of ethanol for these old antiques for those people who don't want to convert their vehicles to EV.
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Dashenka

Quote from: GloomCookie on June 22, 2022, 04:50:40 AM
That's gonna change though, and eventually the only cars still using gasoline will be older antiques that are maintained solely out of nostalgia, and even those will likely eventually be adapted for EV. An industry that did similar was antique railroads.

I disagree with that.

Railroads were not privately owned things with a lot of restrictions.

I love cars, IC and EV, but I will not convert my cars to EV's as long as I can still get petrol. One of the reasons I love one particular car, is the noise it makes, which is engine and combustion noise. You cannot reproduce that with electricity.

That said however I do have a question regarding battery use in EV's. I've got one on order but due to the nature of the car I will drive it, perhaps, 1000 miles a year. I will probably keep it on what is called a trickle charger, which keeps ordinary batteries from going flat. Do new, modern day lithium batteries work the same way? And what I don't use it often? Will that have an effect on the longevity of the batteries?
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

greenknight

Quote from: Dashenka on June 22, 2022, 06:10:28 AM
Railroads were not privately owned things with a lot of restrictions.
In the US, they are.

QuoteThat said however I do have a question regarding battery use in EV's. I've got one on order but due to the nature of the car I will drive it, perhaps, 1000 miles a year. I will probably keep it on what is called a trickle charger, which keeps ordinary batteries from going flat. Do new, modern day lithium batteries work the same way? And what I don't use it often? Will that have an effect on the longevity of the batteries?
For your EV, don't set it to charge over 90% if you aren't road tripping and put it on the AC charger when it depletes to about 20%. Avoid DC chargers (aka, fast chargers; CHAdeMO, Supercharger, etc) except when road tripping. A well-designed EV will use power at rest, at a minimum to maintain proper battery temperature and, if delivered this way, periodically check for and download OTA software and firmware updates. My car will use about half a charge a month at rest in hot/humid locales but I'm not sure if that's an independent function of battery size or if most cars will average about the same based on a balance of battery capacity and requirements.
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GloomCookie

Quote from: Dashenka on June 22, 2022, 06:10:28 AM
I disagree with that.

Railroads were not privately owned things with a lot of restrictions.

I love cars, IC and EV, but I will not convert my cars to EV's as long as I can still get petrol. One of the reasons I love one particular car, is the noise it makes, which is engine and combustion noise. You cannot reproduce that with electricity.

That said however I do have a question regarding battery use in EV's. I've got one on order but due to the nature of the car I will drive it, perhaps, 1000 miles a year. I will probably keep it on what is called a trickle charger, which keeps ordinary batteries from going flat. Do new, modern day lithium batteries work the same way? And what I don't use it often? Will that have an effect on the longevity of the batteries?

In the US almost all rails are privately owned. Amtrack and a few others must purchase rights to use private lines, and they're usually given lowest priority and have to make way for other trains.

As far as I can tell, trickle chargers are acceptable for EV's, so long as you don't expect them to get you anywhere in a hurry. They make use of a standard wall socket instead of a charging station, but are mainly to keep the battery charged for long periods. This is better for Lithium Ion, as from what I understand they want to be kept at a high charge almost constantly, while older lead-acid batteries need to discharge almost completely from time to time. I could be off base because I don't deal with many batteries.
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GloomCookie

I swear to God I'm just going to make a playlist of Wendover to explain EVs and such to people because it would make my life so much easier.

https://youtu.be/pLcqJ2DclEg
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GloomCookie

So this is a somewhat new development. Florida power companies are starting to place minimum service charges on all customers who don't meet a certain threshold, including those who have solar and sell back to the grid.
https://youtu.be/harSOdBPaK8

I have a feeling this is going to be a development going forward.
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Azy

I have one thought on electric vehicles.  I've been called stupid, among many other things, when saying this other places.  It's a nice idea.  However, as long as the electricity used to charge the battery is not being generated with clean renewable energy, does it really do any good?  Where I live, unless something has recently changed that I don't know about, we have mainly coal burning power plants.  If extra electricity is needed to power these cars, that just means more coal burned.  Then we run out of coal faster, because that resource does not renew itself. 

I'm all for cleaner energy.  We definitely need to do something here, but all angles should be looked at.  I also think that making gas using cars more fuel efficient, and inventing better bio fuels could be an option.  We may not be there yet, but my hope is someone will come up with something in the near future.   

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/electric-cars-and-the-coal-that-runs-them/2015/11/23/74869240-734b-11e5-ba14-318f8e87a2fc_story.html

 

GloomCookie

You're not stupid for asking the question, because it is a legitimate question to ask.

It's a matter of scale and efficiency. Gasoline engines are capable of converting approximately 30% of the energy in gasoline into actual motive force, while the rest is lost as heat energy. While coal and natural gas still require releasing pollutants into the air, they are closer to operating at around 95% efficiency. That's because any heat produced by the burning of coal or natural gas is used to boil the water that turns turbines. Even with the losses of going through transformers and transmission lines, you still have a cleaner source of power than gasoline on its own.

Plus, a single power plant, even accounting for the losses in the system, is providing electricity to homes that might also be using stoves and ranges that are electric compared to natural gas. Same for heating. By using electricity instead of fossil fuels, we're able to centralize system and scale up the production of electricity in a way that makes it more efficient than hundreds of small, scattered systems. A single plant can also bolster other nearby grids where necessary.

Also, consider this. Right now, yes, that power plant may burn coal or natural gas, but what happens when it's decommissioned? What will the next generation power plant use? By the time it is shut down for good, most homes might have EV charging stations already so that when they install a large solar farm and wind farm to generate electricity, then except for the new power lines and other components to actually get it operational, then you already have customers who are using EVs and the conversion is seamless.

In other words, the system gets more efficient and produces less pollution in the long-term than waiting for key infrastructure to move away first. By taking steps now, even small steps, the system as a whole becomes more efficient.
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Dashenka

Quote from: GloomCookie on July 13, 2022, 05:18:22 PM
So this is a somewhat new development. Florida power companies are starting to place minimum service charges on all customers who don't meet a certain threshold, including those who have solar and sell back to the grid.
https://youtu.be/harSOdBPaK8

I have a feeling this is going to be a development going forward.

Wait.. so... When you have solarpanels and sell back to the grid, the power company is going to charge you?!
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

GloomCookie

Quote from: Dashenka on July 14, 2022, 01:14:34 AM
Wait.. so... When you have solarpanels and sell back to the grid, the power company is going to charge you?!
Yes. The reason is logical, if a bit counter intuitive. It's a consequence of people selling back to the grid in that the power company still has operating costs such as personnel, equipment, etc. that must be paid for. If everyone starts using solar panels, that's gonna make power companies hemmorage money and then there's nothing to pay for the transmission lines.

Solar only works during the day so unless you have something like a Tesla power wall, you can't save energy for use overnight, so you still need some power from the grid and from the power plants operating far away. By having a price floor, then the power company ensures that on the days you can't sell back to the grid, they still have the funds to operate.

It sucks but... $30 isn't that bad all things considering.
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Dashenka

I've heard some dumb shit in my life but the power companies charging you for selling back to the grid is literally the dumbest fucking shit I've heard in my life.


Why the fuck would I sell back to the grid when I have to pay them for doing so? I'd rather leave the aircon running on max and waste it then pay the power companies, or, as I have done, get a solid battery pack installed so I can store all the excess energy we get during the daytime. I'm not going to be a powerstation for the rest of the country, just because the power companies cannot handle the demand.


Will they at least allow you to be cut off the power mains? Here in the UK, we find it a struggle to get the power company to come up to our house and just cut the wires.


If everybody uses solarpanels, there's no more need for transmission lines. It's just another massive flaw in the entire system. When everybody has solar panels and batteries to store it, power companies become obsolete.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Vekseid

Quote from: Dashenka on July 14, 2022, 03:54:02 AM
I've heard some dumb shit in my life but the power companies charging you for selling back to the grid is literally the dumbest fucking shit I've heard in my life.

Maybe instead of assuming stupidity first, you should ask questions instead.

Or at least read what you are replying to.

Dashenka

The reason I have solar panels is so I don't have to pay the electrical company anymore. So that I can be self sufficient and not depending on big corps.

I don't want to deliver back to the mains but I have to because we cannot get disconnected. If I would have to pay for it as well, what's the point in having solar panels in the first place?

If anything, the power corps should have to pay me, because I'm powering the network.

When they power the network, their clients have to pay for it. But when the clients power the network, they have to pay the power corp. So whatever you put it, you always pay the power corp. I'm sorry, to me at least, that makes no sense.

Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Vekseid

If you have everything setup you could just not pay them until they do disconnect you.

As Gloom mentions they are still providing service. For example, they provide a guaranteed way for you to dissipate excess power without raising your local ground. If everyone switches to renewables, stopping idiots from doing this would still be necessary through one mechanism or another.

GloomCookie

Quote from: Dashenka on July 14, 2022, 04:34:02 AM
The reason I have solar panels is so I don't have to pay the electrical company anymore. So that I can be self sufficient and not depending on big corps.

I don't want to deliver back to the mains but I have to because we cannot get disconnected. If I would have to pay for it as well, what's the point in having solar panels in the first place?

If anything, the power corps should have to pay me, because I'm powering the network.

When they power the network, their clients have to pay for it. But when the clients power the network, they have to pay the power corp. So whatever you put it, you always pay the power corp. I'm sorry, to me at least, that makes no sense.


Vekseid is absolutely right in that the power company is giving you a way to sell that excess power you're generating, or at the very least sell enough that you break even. If you can get something like a power wall and store your own renewable energy, then cool. Go for it. But, if you want power for those times when you can't generate your own power for so long your power wall is depleted entirely, then you have no real choice if you want to have power. You have to use the power company.

I'll pay the $30/month or whatever it is if it means those times I can't get power from my own sources can be backed up by the existing grid. I live in the south where, surprise, it's hot in the summer. Our AC runs almost constantly trying to keep the house cool (mostly because we bought it with an undersized AC for the square footage). If that AC isn't going, the house quickly goes from 73F to around 100+F in the house. Paying around $360/year to ensure I don't die of heat stroke in my own home, or my cats do, or my brother, or my parents? Worth it. All day.

You can go off-grid if you want, but you lose that reliability. That's the cost of doing business with the power company, and there's no way around it.
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Ons and Offs Updated 9 October 2022