A separate Intersex/transgender/genderqueer/etc tag?

[Vekseid]

I'd only make one, mind - I know you come in all sorts of varieties, but roughly 98% of the human population is biologically one single gender and I get the impression that those who mentally identify with a different gender are similarly outnumbered.

If there's support for the idea we'd need to come up with a name, but I think we've got enough now that it could be another viable community here.

This would probably occur after the upgrade as it has superior permission handling.

[Mnemaxa]

One of the more interesting books of science fiction I read uses a gender neutral title for males and females.  It might work well for that - Ser.  Lord, Lady, Ser.  Knight, Dame, Gentry.

[Greenthorn]

Vek, I think that is a wonderful idea!   ;D

[Jag]

I think that idea would go over rather well. There are a number of people out there that can't choose which they are, don't believe they are either, or believe that they are both.

Giving them their own option for a title would be a nice idea.

[Transgirlenstein]

Would they get their own forum then like the Lord and Ladies forums?

[Greenthorn]

Would they get their own forum then like the Lord and Ladies forums?

If they do, then that would mean they don't get Lords/Ladies access?...at least that is what would be "fair". 

[Haibane]

One of the more interesting books of science fiction I read uses a gender neutral title for males and females.  It might work well for that - Ser.  Lord, Lady, Ser.  Knight, Dame, Gentry.

Of those 'Gentry' is the only one without gender connotations. I think it should mesh with the Elliquiy naming conventions of Lord/Lady/Knight/Dame and such.

It also depends on whether the person feels they really belong more in one gender than another (that is, despite their biological gender their sexual/mental gender is 'more' female or 'more' male) or whether they do not feel strongly to be any gender.

Some ideas.

How about:

'Noble'? This tag can sit on a new neutral coloured field for a person who considers themselves neither male or female (or equally both) and could sit on a green field for those who feel themselves more male and on a red field for those who consider themselves more female.

How about using the internationally accepted symbol for a transgender/intersex person which is the female circle/downward + and the male circle/upwards arrow combined? See here - particularly the fifth symbol down (transgender) and the eighth (gender symbols).

Also here.

If they do, then that would mean they don't get Lords/Ladies access?...at least that is what would be "fair". 

Hmmm... this is a very good point. And it opens up a whole new discussion. Would a person with a male body but a female gender be given access to the Ladies only forum, or the Lords only? Or neither and we create a new one?

[Transgirlenstein]

Personally, I am a bit on the fence about this.  Part of me things it a good idea, part of me doesn't.

I do like Haibane's idea the best though and I would think they should get access to their own forum then.

[Greenthorn]

One thing I would like to point out about having a totally different forum just for TGs...

As far as I am aware, there is a small group of those who are honestly gender neutral/TG..or whatever (sorry I don't know all of the terms and labels)...do they really want to feel...-isolated- with just the small group by losing access to Lords/Ladies?

Now that I think about it, having another forum for TGs (etc) might almost be...segregative.

[Haibane]

I do like Haibane's idea the best though and I would think they should get access to their own forum then.

Please, it wasn't my idea. Others suggested it, I just threw in my 2c.

[Vekseid]

One thing I would like to point out about having a totally different forum just for TGs...

As far as I am aware, there is a small group of those who are honestly gender neutral/TG..or whatever (sorry I don't know all of the terms and labels)...do they really want to feel...-isolated- with just the small group by losing access to Lords/Ladies?

Now that I think about it, having another forum for TGs (etc) might almost be...segregative.

Well, that's really why I've waited so long - we seem to be getting a new Intersex applicant every few days, I think there's enough where they could have their own area.

[Ket]

Not to rain on anyone's parade...

But my question is, with a tag specifically stating that someone is trans, whether it be in mind or body, would this possibly cause issues with people who aren't comfortable with it?  I know the majority of us on E are very open when it comes to sexualities and genders, however, as we've seen in the past, there are some who aren't.  

[Haibane]

Now that I think about it, having another forum for TGs (etc) might almost be...segregative.

*nods sagely* It's a sensitive subject - and a slippery slope. Isn't asking for a separate identifyer (graphical and/or name) segregative anyway?

I do think that which forum is accessible is going to be the key here. Perhaps one of the two main genders plus a new TG forum wherein TG-relevant issues can be discussed?

I think we need some input here from the members this will directly concern as well.

[Mnemaxa]

Well, the main advantage of having their own forum is that it would, like the other two forums, be about things their genders would be concerned with and a very good source of support and resources just as the other two are for their genders, regardless of how exactly they define that gender.   Likewise, they shouldn't have access to both lords and ladies, as it subverts the entire idea behind those two boards - as safe place for people to discuss gender based issues without qualm or concern for their safety or respect.

I don't think that last came out right, but I hope you get the idea.

That's part of my reasoning for using a non-gender biased title like Gentry, Noble, Ser....it imparts a title of respect without defining exactly a role they themselves are trying or seek to define for themselves.  It's a wide swath of many shades of grey, and even male and female aren't exactly black and white.

[Transgirlenstein]

Thus why I am on the fence.  Part of me things its not a bad idea, the other part feels it is segregative.

[Vekseid]

Thus why I am on the fence.  Part of me things its not a bad idea, the other part feels it is segregative.

Well it's largely a voluntary thing. People who truly identify as male or female are not mandated to hop into the new group.

[Mnemaxa]

Having two sections, one for male, and one for female is also segregative.  anyone who things otherwise is not looking at the sheer existence of the fact that the two sexes have seperate boards.  This is not a bad thing, mind you.  If they want to define themselves as a lord, or a lady, then they've set themselves as who they feel they are already, and it shouldn't be an issue.  The third board is for those who have actual issues with their gender distinction, if they choose to use it.  And that's the key word: CHOICE.  They have the option of choosing any one board....just as we right now have the choice of two boards, Lords and Ladies.  

[Oniya]

Perhaps something more subtle - giving the Lord or Lady title that is desired, but using the intersex or a purple symbol for the gender tag.  Most of the time, I barely even notice the gender symbol, which would make it less likely to be a cause for focus.

[Cthulhu]

It would be nice to have a forum for gender issues... But at the same time, for such a small group? It might get boring. The gender play meet up thread has about 20 posts, so that would be really small.

I don't know about the ladies-gents forums, though. Should one be excluded from both for being bigender (having a female and a male side)? I understand that some people might be uncomfortable with gender issues - Trieste told me there were some complaints about my thread to ask and change this. So in that aspect I do support a seperate board... But then again. The group might just be tiny.

[Oniya]

It would be nice to have a forum for gender issues... But at the same time, for such a small group? It might get boring. The gender play meet up thread has about 20 posts, so that would be really small.

I don't know about the ladies-gents forums, though. Should one be excluded from both for being bigender (having a female and a male side)? I understand that some people might be uncomfortable with gender issues - Trieste told me there were some complaints about my thread to ask and change this. So in that aspect I do support a seperate board... But then again. The group might just be tiny.

I'm not sure you can use the gender-play meetup thread to determine whether a bigender forum would be useful.  There also might be people who a) consider themselves bigender, but don't care to get involved in gender-play, or b) consider themselves firmly one gender or the other and do enjoy gender-play. 

Here's a question, though - Does a forum take up a set amount of resources in addition to whatever amount of traffic it has?  If not, then there's nothing that would be hurt by having it as a sanctuary for those things that bigendered people might not feel comfortable airing in public, the same way that Ladies Only (and I presume Lords Only) is a sanctuary for the single-gendered to do 'locker-room talk'.

Personally, I'm not uncomfortable with the current set-up, but I understand that some people might be, on all the multiple sides of the fence.  Maybe it's anonymous poll time?

[Haibane]

Cthulhu, I don't think the size of the group matters. I think giving you a place that is welcoming and private and where you can discuss issues important to yourselves without fear of being interrupted/ridiculed/watched, is.

Whether some of you also have access to one of the other gender specific forums is something to debate but I do not think it is fair to allow access to both, for the reasons we have separate forums in the first place.

A number of E members have had their gender tag switched already. This alone makes me a tiny bit uncomfortable that people with previous access to one forum now have access to the other. Feel free to berate me as narrowminded if you wish, though I don't intend anything negative by it, but I thought it wise to show my true feelings here, even if my discomfort is very very slight.

[Trieste]

I fit rather neatly into the binomial system of genders. I have a vagina, and I rather enjoy being a girl. That being said, I feel like doing such a thing puts far too much focus on gender. The only reason I personally use the lord and lady tags is to determine whether someone prefers being referred to as sir or ma'am.

My sexuality is not tied to gender, though, at all. So I'm not sure how this would help those of you who care about it more ... I mean, and it's not like there are super secret things going on in the gender-specific forum. We could all talk about makeup and sex toys and naked men and porn stars and our perfect date out in the open forum if we wanted to... it's just that it's another forum where things feel like they might 'belong'.

[Scott]

Now that I think about it, having another forum for TGs (etc) might almost be...segregative.

I don't see it being any more segrative than a Lord no being able to access the Ladies thread, or Vice versa, it would just be a third thread. As long as there is no bouncing back and forth between the new thread and their physically or mentally chosen gender. just pick one of the three and stick with it. 

[Karma]

I think the farthest I'd be willing to go with this is adding a board for issues, and making no further "identifiers" if you will. I'm also mildly uneasy about the gender tag switching, but not enough to have any real objection to it. I would participate readily in the intersex board, or whatever it would be called, but I am not interested in being cut off from the Ladies board...

[Transgirlenstein]

The thing is, I agree in that a third gender tag shouldn't needed.  An intersex board would be great and very much appreciated but as Karma said, Some people do not want to be cut off from the Lord or Ladies boards.

[Scott]

So basically you want your cake and to eat it too?, if one wants to be identified as a third sex/gender, then why not embrace it fully? I've never seen any ridicule on E for anyone's ideas of preferences. 

I'm mildly uneasy with tag switching as well, It's a deception in my book.

[Karma]

Scott, a common trait of intersex and transgender is internal confusion. To call it a deception and expect everyone in the gray area to be able to embrace it fully frankly rubs me quite the wrong way.

[Transgirlenstein]

A deception?!

Not everyone wants to be identified as a third gender or sex.  A lot of transgender people want to be accepted as the gender they feel they should be.  if someone wants to change their tag to reflect their mental state, I don't see that as a deception at all.

[Scott]

Scott, a common trait of intersex and transgender is internal confusion. To call it a deception and expect everyone in the gray area to be able to embrace it fully frankly rubs me quite the wrong way.

A deception?!

Not everyone wants to be identified as a third gender or sex.  A lot of transgender people want to be accepted as the gender they feel they should be.  if someone wants to change their tag to reflect their mental state, I don't see that as a deception at all.

Then I will respectfully agree to disagree with both of you.

[Lithos]

Stepping my big foot to the powder keg as well :)

Here is my two cents to this discussion, this is more from the standpoint of as uniform and stable policy as possible.

For management of gender tags, I think that all of our governments have had to solve that allready, when gender changes, its identifier in your ID changes, so that takes care of the player gender tag, just look at your licence / passport / other ID.

Forums wise, I think that everyone should have access to either lords or ladies boards but not both (altough admins are exception to this allready, and it cannot be any other way :p)

People who identify inwardly as different gender than outwardly should definitely have board where they could talk about their unique issues, but it should be just addition, and not exclude lords / ladies board one is part of allready.

I think that policy along these lines would be fairest and easiest to upkeep overall.

Finally, as far as switching of gender tags goes, here is a bit of explanation to what I stated earlier:

I think that gender we announce in our profile is not the inwardly perceived gender, but the one people who walk around you on the street and spend time with you at work see. Gender change is two part process, first your mental state changes or allready is opposite gender, after that, with some modifications, body follows. Eventually, the gender we feel ourselves to be and the perceived gender both have changed, and that is when it changes in our identification. Our forum profile is just that, identification. Third tag would be... odd to say at least I think, and unnecessary, as there is no third gender really :P (except for true hemaphrodites perhaps).

[Trieste]

Many many people have expressed the worry before that they did not want to be caught out as 'lying' on their app and put their biological gender. This is, in my opinion, the deception, and it's one they have to deal with every day. It is no more fair than if I were forced to pretend I was straight.

It is because of this that your expressed point of view does not mesh with site policy, Scott.

Forums wise, I think that everyone should have access to either lords or ladies boards but not both (altough admins are exception to this allready, and it cannot be any other way :p)

People who identify inwardly as different gender than outwardly should definitely have board where they could talk about their unique issues, but it should be just addition, and not exclude lords / ladies board one is part of allready.

This is something I've been considering, myself.

[Greenthorn]

Okay...question:  Does a tag change mean that people are automatically able to see the Lord or Lady board?  Is it integrated into the software?  Are those who have changed tags now cut off from their gender board (gender as in genital gender...not mindset...not way of life) and allowed to see the other board?

This is really where I think the problem is.  As for a feeling of deception...yeah...I can see it.  I'm heterosexual, I see a Lord tag, I flirt, maybe I even develop a crush, I find out that he is really a she with a Lord tag.........drama/choas/possible loss of a member ensues.  I used "I" simply because well...while throwing around the scenario, I might have that reaction...and it's not because I am closed-minded (I gauge my opinions on people because they are people...not by what sex or lifestyle they live)...I would be embarrassed...hurt...upset...

Of course using myself as an example is a bit far fetched...but it -could- happen.

I don't like the taste of "what could happen" with everyone switching their tags to the opposite gender.  We get entirely too many new people in a month who are not here -seeing- the public switch.  I predict problems.  (and when I have actually thought about this overnight and have come back here to post...this is not a normal "off the cuff GT thing"...)

So, my opinion:  Create a new tag or a new gender sign (one could have Lord title which is genetically what they are...yet have a female gender sign) but stop allowing Lords to be Ladies and Ladies to be Lords.  Really, the tag is there for everyone else, not ourselves.

(None of that is meant to be against anyone, so please, if you feel insulted or anything, PM me)

[Transgirlenstein]

I don't think I am insulted but the thing is GT is that (I am speaking for myself mind you) that I would want to be treated as the gender that you see on that little tag to my left.  Mind you, I can not predict what people might do but I would want to be treated as the gender that I see myself as mentally.  I know several trans/gender queer people that do get very upset being called by the opposite pronoun.

Also, the question is on the gender the person wants to be known as (I might have missed this part in previous posts so please correct me if I do) but then how do we tell the difference between a trans man or a trans woman?  If you see transgendered next to me..what do you call me?  Sir, Madam, Cousin It?  Transexual, transgendered, gender queer?

One of the reasons I signed up to this forum was because I felt it was a place I could be myself.  At first I didn't put my gender as female because I was at a point where I was unsure.  Now that I am in a place where I feel comfortable, I asked for the change because I felt it was proper for me to feel that it was good for me to come out on a place I felt comfortable.  Now, I'm not as sure as I was.  While I think the board is a good idea as it would be nice to talk to others going through similar things, I am disliking the idea of the tag less and less. 

[Zeitgeist]

An interesting dilemma Elliquiy finds itself in. I cant imagine this topic has not come up before this.

I myself do not have a strong opinion one way or the other. Switching genders after registration however seems to me as a bit disingenuous but who am I to pass judgment.

There's the men's room, the ladies room, do we add a third, trans-gender room? Will the janitor pay as much attention to the third room as he/she does with the other original two? Will they be ridiculed or pointed out for entering the third room?

If we are to be all inclusive, do you not have to be consistently all inclusive, and not selectively inclusive?

Therein lies the danger of being inclusive beyond the two genders. If you're going to include all, you must honor and accept all permutations beyond the 'typical'. Perhaps by day someone is principally male and by night female? Seems a likely scenario. Why isn't there a gay female, gay male, straight male, straight female permutation here at Elliquiy then?

Its interesting to sit back and watch, what one must admit is a largely 'liberal' group struggle to identify itself, giving labels to this or that, while at the same time trying to not offend anyone, most of all themselves.

Again, I'm not expressing my own opinion as much as I am observing. Personally, and in regards to my interactions on Elliquiy it matters little to me.

[Greenthorn]

The problem is not with the tags, the transgendered, or even a little sign which shows a bit of both...

The problem lies in the fact that Elliquiy does hold people here who are uncomfortable with a genetic man who holds a Lady title.  The problem is not the one who has the tag...it's what the tag says to others.

The solution to this is something else besides a Lord/Lady tag.  What would even be more universal is simply the gender thingy we all have underneath our tags...why not allow -that- to be changed?

The tag is the genetic (Lord/Lady) and the gender symbol is the mindset.  I honestly think this would be more widely accepted.

Edit to add:  Plus, making it something a bit more subtle might be more comfortable for others who want people to know, but not in a big way ;D

[Scott]

The tag is the genetic (Lord/Lady) and the gender symbol is the mindset.  I honestly think this would be more widely accepted.

Edit to add:  Plus, making it something a bit more subtle might be more comfortable for others who want people to know, but not in a big way ;D

Very Very good idea in my opinion.

[Maeven]

The solution to this is something else besides a Lord/Lady tag.  What would even be more universal is simply the gender thingy we all have underneath our tags...why not allow -that- to be changed?

The tag is the genetic (Lord/Lady) and the gender symbol is the mindset.  I honestly think this would be more widely accepted.

This is just my personal opinion... but if that was adopted, I think the better implementation would be to have the Tag (Lord, Lady, Knight, Dame) be the gender with which that person identifies and the the actual symbol reflective of the XX or XY arrangement.

And, as far as the boards are concerned.  I really don't see the major issue with them having access to both boards (and a separate transgendered board set aside specifically for that particular usergroup).  There are certainly issues discussed on the Ladies board that would be pertinent to a person with a woman's body who identifies more as a man, just as, I'm guessing, there would be a benefit to seeing the Lord's board. 


And, really, someone said it before, but it's not like what's discussed on the Ladies board is super-top-secret stuff.  It's just that it seems more appropriate to be asking just the girls what to do when you're PMSing so bad you're ready to rip the heads off puppies or whether that set of rabbit ears is better for clitoral stimulation than this one. And I'm sure you boys could live the rest of your life without knowing what a Diva Cup is... but I digress.

Switching genders after registration however seems to me as a bit disingenuous but who am I to pass judgment.

I don't think it's disingenuous. I think it's a testament to the level of comfort that's nurtured inside Elliquiy. 



My point is that how someone else perceives themselves shouldn't concern me.  If I like someone and/or enjoy writing with someone... what difference does it make what gender they are or what gender they identify with? The person who is actually feeling that difference is the person who has been labeled one way and doesn't identify with said label. If we have the ability to change that label so that that person feels better, then why don't we do it?

[Cthulhu]

So basically you want your cake and to eat it too?, if one wants to be identified as a third sex/gender, then why not embrace it fully? I've never seen any ridicule on E for anyone's ideas of preferences. 

I'm mildly uneasy with tag switching as well, It's a deception in my book.

It's not like we decided one day "Meh, this ladies/gents board is totally boring, let's see what the gents/ladies are up too."

We're genderconfused. We don't always fit into neat little categories. In order to reply to GT's question - this is the internet. A lot of people could have signed up as a different gender, really. In the theoretical case someone would come on to me, as soon as it would get to flirting, I would discretely let them know the truth.

Maeven is right - this community mattered enough to people that they want to be their true selves there. Can't be anything wrong with that.

[Oniya]

From the questionnaire:

Gender - Your real gender. (you should set this in your profile after getting accepted). This determines whether you get accepted as a Lord or Lady, which determines a number of minor things on this site. If you are hermaphroditic, transgendered, intersex or similar, you do not need to reveal such though we have a small open community here, but please list the gender you identify with.

I know several people offline who are TG, at least one of which is going through reassignment.  Due to the binary system that we all learned from the time we first used a public restroom, there is most definitely a conflict during a person's realization and acceptance of their own gender.  It's not surprising that someone unsure of acceptance might err on the side of caution when making an introduction, and then, as a comfort level is reached, explain the totality of this very personal situation.

[Greenthorn]

My posts were not an attack on anyone.  I am friends (at least I consider them friends) with a few who fall into this category, but that does not change what I see as potential problems.

I'll stop posting here.

[Oniya]

I don't know that anyone has considered them attacks.  The problems exist, and would have to be worked out no matter what. 

[Karma]

Since this is a community... we have to consider the lowest common emotional denominator.

[Cthulhu]

My posts were not an attack on anyone.  I am friends (at least I consider them friends) with a few who fall into this category, but that does not change what I see as potential problems.

I'll stop posting here.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make you feel like I was being defensive. It was a mere reaction of mine, I didn't take your comment personally. 

[Trieste]

Clearly this problem has only arisen because y'all have forgotten one thing:

There are no girls on the internet. Nada. None.

[Will]

Clearly this problem has only arisen because y'all have forgotten one thing:

There are no girls on the internet. Nada. None.

*snickers*

And seriously, I would feel pretty silly begrudging someone access to the Lords' Board.  It's not exactly the most intellectually stimulating collection of topics. :P

[Scott]

And seriously, I would feel pretty silly begrudging someone access to the Lords' Board.  It's not exactly the most intellectually stimulating collection of topics. :P

Agreed.

Just as the Intersex/transgender/genderqueer crowd has the right for a reasonable amount of accommodation to their needs, do the needs of the straight gender crowd have to be cast aside; to be reasonably certain that the partners they have chosen for games be indeed anatomically/emotionally unconfused male or female partners? 

That's why I feel Greenthorn's idea is the most accommodating to all genders, and think it should be given serious thought.

The solution to this is something else besides a Lord/Lady tag.  What would even be more universal is simply the gender thingy we all have underneath our tags...why not allow -that- to be changed?

The tag is the genetic (Lord/Lady) and the gender symbol is the mindset.  I honestly think this would be more widely accepted.

Edit to add:  Plus, making it something a bit more subtle might be more comfortable for others who want people to know, but not in a big way ;D

[Elohim]

If this was most other roleplaying sites on the internet you wouldn’t even have the tags to represent your gender as one or the other.  All you’d have is a person’s name, and their word that they are of the gender they are claiming to belong to.  No one is trying to “Cast aside” the straight people, if you’re that freaked out by the idea of playing with someone of another gender perhaps you should stick to players that your sure sport the correct connecting hardware that you feel comfy with.  If anything I would have imagined the people who switched their gender tags while HERE would warrant a little more respect then what you’re showing to them.  They’ve shown themselves to be one, but came out as feeling more comftorable as the other.  You KNOW that they’re biological sex is different then they’re gender identity. 

[Scott]

I don't remember not showing respect, all I was asking for is straight forward honesty to people who may not have seen this thread, or know that switching gender tags was even possible.

If anyone feels I have disrespected them I truly apologize, I've tried to address an issue and not any individual, and If I've failed at that then I apologize.

[Paradox]

Just a question, somewhat related to one of Seraph's points--

Who cares what the tag says? Most of us are here to write. Some men enjoy playing women, some women enjoy playing men. It really shouldn't matter what gender the writer is, only what gender the character is, but if someone is uncomfortable when it comes to writing with someone else of the same-sex or someone transgendered, then just don't write with those people. Just find a different partner who suits your preferences. It's not that difficult.

[Trieste]

... I should probably note that what happened just recently was not a quick flipping of tags. It was not something that someone asked me out of the blue and I just went and changed and went along on my way. I knew previous to their requests that Cthulhu and Satyr had had some ambivalence with regard to gender. The changing-over of tags was not out of the blue, and if someone randomly came to me asking to switch to Lord or Lady from Lady or Lord, I would have been a bit more cynical.

Please also remember that up until very recently, doctors took it on themselves to mutilate genitals not only without the consent of the newborn, but also without even parental consent. If you had someone born with vestigial female genitalia, it was removed and they were raised as a boy, often without the parents being particularly aware of the surgery until it was too late. They were then told that it was to the child's best interests to be raised "normally", and it was thought that they would adjust.

There is now strong, strong evidence that they most definitely do not. It is happenstance if the doctor happens to assign the correct gender at birth, and some were not assigned that. Many people are blessed with being comfortable in their own body, for the most part. Sure, someone might wish to be taller, or lose a bit of weight, but that's about the extent of it.

Elliquiy has always recognised, subtly, that this is not always the case. It just happened to be placed in the open lately, and if people are not comfortable with it, then I'm very sorry, but this is the way that site policy has been for quite a while. I would feel extremely wrong about enforcing anything less open-minded, because it's cruel and needlessly narrow-minded. Please note that I am not calling people those things, but I do believe that bigotry is as bigotry does.



As far as a separate intersex/gender neutral tag, I have yet to see anyone who actually is gender neutral or intersex ask for one. The only people asking for the differentiation are people who are frightened that there could be freaks among us. When someone who would actually need the tag asks for one, I would love to consider it, but until then...

Perhaps this comes off as harsh, but I'm truly shocked at how many people on Elliquiy are so touchy about this. We have people who are openly gay, bi, masochist, sadist, dom(me), sub, kinky, poly, open, label label label label. I had thought we were past attaching negativity to things that are different from our own experience or state of being. If someone were questioning their sexuality, they would have no such reaction here, but because they are questioning the root word - their sex, versus their gender - people feel the need to get all stirred up. The incredible amount of negativity I have seen regarding someone who doesn't happen to have the 'right' equipment for their identity ... *shakes head* Gender confusion has its own problems. Let's not be yet another place they don't feel comfortable.

Do not misunderstand - I am not advocating the comfort of one group at the discomfort of another. However, it does not take that much extra effort to make sure that the person with whom you are flirting/talking/planning a game is actually someone with whom you would like to flirt/talk/write. If you find out someone is one sex but another gender ... don't write with them. Don't play with them in the Steamboxxx. It does not rob them of their right to be known by the gender they feel is correct.

[Sultrynets]

I was not originally going to post in here at all.  I just wonder... does it really matter what gender someone is when they are writing with you??  Because I know plenty of girls that write extremely convincing and sexy male characters... along with plenty of guys that can write enticing, sexy females.  In my opinion, if someone identifies as a female, but is physically male... they are the ones suffering.  As a female that is happy being a female... I cannot imagine the frustration in being physically male when you feel like you are a female.  Anyway, I don't see the big deal in any TG person having access to either of the boards because well... I know there really isn't much on the Ladies boards that could not be posted elsewhere on the forums but aren't because... what guy really wants to read about PMS frustrations??

Anyway, I personally think I agree with Trieste.  The only people that are asking for a separate tag are the people that are comfortable in their physical gender.  I don't think we really need a separate tag for TGs at all.  Elliquiy is generally speaking a very open and accepting community.  Everyone here has different sexual kinks that society would normally label as strange or weird and we accept all of that with no problems... so why is it that when someone who feels like they were born in the wrong body comes along... so many people freak out about it?? I just think that we should be a bit more accepting and understanding, because really... anyone who is TG already has enough confusion and pain to deal with... without being made to feel any extra pressure, pain, confusion etc here.

[Haibane]

Just a question, somewhat related to one of Seraph's points--

Who cares what the tag says? Most of us are here to write. Some men enjoy playing women, some women enjoy playing men. It really shouldn't matter what gender the writer is, only what gender the character is, but if someone is uncomfortable when it comes to writing with someone else of the same-sex or someone transgendered, then just don't write with those people. Just find a different partner who suits your preferences. It's not that difficult.

It matters to me. I dislike playing with players who want to play cross-gender. I try to avoid it at all times. I... can't really explain it, but it does make me uncomfortable.

Therefore the gender tag is of paramount importance to me.

The only people asking for the differentiation are people who are frightened that there could be freaks among us.

That would possibly include the original poster? He suggested one may be needed and that we should debate it. I suggested it might be a good idea too. I still do. Are you saying I'm frightened there are freaks among us? If you are then I resent the suggestion. I have met far more 'freaky' hetero males on E than anyone transgendered or gender neutral (in fact I don't think a person can be 'gender neutral' any more than a person can be exactly 50/50 bisexual - there will always be a slight bias to one side or the other). I suggested a third tag may be needed because the original poster set up the thread title and phrased the original question so that my thinking became aligned that way.

I have met one transgendered person on E and love and respect them very much. I know *exactly* what they went through right from small childhood at the hands of their own - and quite frankly sick - parents. I am not afraid of freaks; I am afraid of ordinary bigoted people and how much damage and hurt they can do.

[Trieste]

That would possibly include the original poster? He suggested one may be needed and that we should debate it.

No; he was posting it in response to other communication.

Are you saying I'm frightened there are freaks among us?

Probably.

If you are then I resent the suggestion.

Okay, then.

I have met far more 'freaky' hetero males on E than anyone transgendered or gender neutral (in fact I don't think a person can be 'gender neutral' any more than a person can be exactly 50/50 bisexual - there will always be a slight bias to one side or the other). I suggested a third tag may be needed because the original poster set up the thread title and phrased the original question so that my thinking became aligned that way.

I understand. It was someone else's fault that you have the opinion you do. You're still responsible for it, though. Your ideas about bisexuality and the males of Elliquiy are interesting; given a community like Elliquiy, you will probably also find people who share them. That happens to be the beauty of such a community. Funny how that works.

I have met one transgendered person on E and love and respect them very much. I know *exactly* what they went through right from small childhood at the hands of their own - and quite frankly sick - parents. I am not afraid of freaks; I am afraid of ordinary bigoted people and how much damage and hurt they can do.

One person, and you know everything they went through. What do you want, a cookie? (Joke, struck out because I'm hoping that in the process of killing my joke adding subtext that it won't be leaped on and laid into with teeth and claws.) Every person's experience is different, just like every other highly personal experience we all go through. Sexuality in itself is highly personal, and it's not going to fit in some nice, neat little cubbyhole where everyone can feel happy and comfy with that stuff over there. The thing is that we don't really even try to do so with others, save for the exception of trying to categorize games. That's the way it should essentially stay.

[Nadir]

I think having an ambiguous gender badge should be an option, and those who take it should have the same perks as the Lords and Ladies - ie their own forum to discuss things.

Personally, I don't like feeling I'm restricted to the one gender and I loathe the assumptions people make by seeing it. Of course, people will always make assumptions no matter what title is above the name, but at least I wouldn't feel like an imposter.
 

[Zeitgeist]

Just think, if we all applied the same earnest care and respect, wringing our hands in worried angst in fear of offending, to people's choice of religion (an equally deeply personal choice), as we do to sexual preferences. Be they evangelical born-again Christians, fervent Muslims, or white-robed Wiccans. Insert favorite much aligned and misunderstood group here.

And if you think we do already, you're fooling yourself, 'we' as in society in general not exclusively Elliquiy.

Yeah I horribly digressed.

<runs><hides>

LOL

[Nadir]

Ugh... I for one would rather leave E than advertise my religion, if that's what you're suggesting.

[Oniya]

I think Zamdrist is actually commenting on the fact that we have an entire board dedicated to the potentially offending subjects of politics and religion.

[Zeitgeist]

Ugh... I for one would rather leave E than advertise my religion, if that's what you're suggesting.

No, such a denotation would clearly be irrelevant. I'm just saying, if one is going to extol the freedom to claim any gender of choice, here or elsewhere, one should be consistent and apply the same level of respect of choice across the board.

[Lithos]

Still, as I mentioned in post earlier allready, we are bickering about issue that has been solved for a long time allready. We DO have option for changing gender in real life thanks to technology allready, and it IS possible to be indentified as opposite gender in our society. What is point when there is system allready in place to handle the gender change, look at your ID card, passport, drivers lisence or such, you see your gender there and we can use that. What could possibly be more simple or clear method to use for this x.x.

Everyone can and has always been able to be what ever they want personally here. What we are talking about here is our identification to outside and that is all in our papers, there is no need whatsoever for any odd system that we would need to bicker about here.

[Trieste]

*thwaps Zamdrist with a rolled up newspaper* If you want to discuss an offshoot topic, make another thread, please. I know you know better. :P

[Nadir]

Should I request a third gender badge in a PM to one of the gods or goddesses? There really isn't much info about how someone goes about doing this. I know one isn't available yet - I just want to be in line when one is made.