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Author Topic: Scott Walker, Union Buster  (Read 26768 times)

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Online ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #100 on: February 28, 2011, 11:15:59 AM »
Walker set up a 4:00 PM deadline yesterday for protesters to leave the Capitol building so that it could be cleaned.  Several hundred demonstrators, fearing this was a trick, refused to leave, and the police (many of whom are protesting themselves during their time off) refused to force them to leave; so a smaller group stayed overnight again despite the deadline.  The building was in a form of lockdown, however, with more protesters not allowed to go back in overnight, except for a few who delivered food to those who had stayed.  Those who left were expected to return today, though I haven't found any confirmation of that yet.  Traffic in and out is reportedly going to remain limited through today, partly due to Walker's speech planned for tomorrow (see below).

The protests are spreading across the country now (there's a bunch of photos here).  The group in Madison, by some reports, has reached 100,000 people, and rallies in support of the Madison group have been held in 66 cities, including every state capital.  These protests have drawn counter-protests from the Tea Party, though as in Wisconsin, their numbers have been much smaller.  (It's hard to find numbers for either side, actually, except that New York reported 3,000 or so.  No number for counter-protesters there, if any.)

Over 270 state legislators from 44 states and two territories have signed a letter supporting the protesters, including a few Republicans.

Yesterday Wisconsin Republican senator Dale Schultz confirmed that he would not vote for the bill as it stands, an announcement that earned huge cheers from the demonstrators.

Walker plans to give a speech on the budget Tuesday that he says will explain the gravity of the situation and make the reasons behind his insistence not to compromise clear.  No word on how he plans to explain his own role in the budget crisis.

He'll probably ignore it, though, as he did on "Meet the Press" when asked about his statement that he considered putting troublemakers into the protest.

Quote
MR. GREGORY:  It was suggested by someone who was a liberal blogger that you might think about planting troublemakers into the crowd.  And you said quote, "We thought about that." Is that right?  You really thought about trying to bust up physically these protests?

GOV. WALKER:  No, we thought, as the call continues and I've said repeatedly, we, we rejected that.  But we have people all the time who contact us for and against this bill, and you can imagine people with all sorts of ideas and suggestions, and we look at everything that's out there.  But the bottom line is, we rejected that because we have had a civil discourse.  We've had, you know, a week ago, 70,000 people, we had more than that yesterday, and yet we haven't had problems here.  We haven't had disturbances.  We've just had very passionate protesters for and against this bill, and that's OK.  That's a very Midwestern thing.  But we're not going to allow anybody to come in from outside of this state and try and disrupt this debate.  They can inform it, but we're not going to allow them to disrupt this debate and take the focus off the real issue here.  And the issue is, the people in Wisconsin, particularly those 14 state senators, need to come home and have the debate here in the state Capitol.

Complete transcript is here.

Walker still refuses to offer any other explanation or mitigating circumstances for this.  I think that's what's bothering me the most right now.  His reason for deciding against it wasn't because he feared loss of life or injury, but because he didn't want it to look like he was being forced into anything.  And he still hasn't replied either to the Madison mayor or the police chief's repeated requests for an explanation.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #101 on: February 28, 2011, 01:55:33 PM »
The most depressing bit about that show was the number of republican candidates who have high numbers in the poll who have NO chance of getting elected. I mean seriously, Sarah Palin has 16%? She's.. <self censors>

I'm depressed with the quality of people willing to step forward these days. Seems most of the sensible leaders in the party don't want to submit to having their feet of clay scrutinized by the media.

As for the segment with Gov. Walker.. he continued to bulldoze over the points he didn't like.

Why do I suspect he'll continue to do so.

Offline itsbeenfun2000

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2011, 10:01:58 PM »
not depressed at all. the longer Walker continues to be bull headed the less support he will get. He has woken a sleeping giant that will not go away anytime soon. The Republicans will be sorry it was woken as well.


Online ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #103 on: March 01, 2011, 01:59:00 PM »
I'm only surprised this didn't happen sooner.

http://wisaflcio.typepad.com/WSEU-CBA-ULP.final.pdf

The Wisconsin State Employees Union has filed charges against Walker for refusing to bargain collectively with them.    And he is breaking the law -- regardless of the changes he wants to happen, refusing to negotiate with duly appointed union representatives breaks two Wisconsin statutes.

I don't suppose the punishment is much more than a fine or something, but I'm surprised that he didn't anticipate this.  Also, I can't wait to hear the next lame excuse or (probably more accurately) avoidance of the issue from him.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #104 on: March 01, 2011, 03:50:19 PM »
I think this is the sort of thing (or the threat of it) that the Ohio unions used to make our state senators reconsider a similar proposal.

Offline itsbeenfun2000

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #105 on: March 01, 2011, 07:26:31 PM »
What he has yet to consider is how much revenue will Wiscons lose because of this. I live there, tourism is a big revenue generator. I can see the NEA boycoting the state. The other thing he has to possibly deal with, though I doubt it will happen, is if this bill passes and the WEA calls for a state wide strike. Yes it is illeagle to do in Wisconsin but so where strikes a hundred years ago.


Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #106 on: March 01, 2011, 08:22:32 PM »
What he has yet to consider is how much revenue will Wiscons lose because of this. I live there, tourism is a big revenue generator. I can see the NEA boycoting the state. The other thing he has to possibly deal with, though I doubt it will happen, is if this bill passes and the WEA calls for a state wide strike. Yes it is illeagle to do in Wisconsin but so where strikes a hundred years ago.

I had a (much more conservative) friend say that a strike would be folly. He's of the opinion that the teachers will be easy to replace. I tried to tell him just how much work and certification it takes to become an educator and how much of a money hit it is to have someone get certified to be a teacher.

I grit my teeth when I hear the old saw 'Those who can't.. teach."  I really really pisses me off. I knew people who had to work themselves to death to keep their job (like the music teacher in high school who had to run the band program for TWO schools to stay employed. The school board mandated 'continuing' education efforts got him his doctorate in music and he suddenly had to 'volunteer' to do the job of three teachers to stay employed)

Offline Oniya

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Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #107 on: March 01, 2011, 08:29:37 PM »
At one point, I considered going into teaching.  The one thing that kept me from it was not being able to grasp the ins and outs of the psych classes that (I was told) were part of the requirements for a teaching cert.

So, no, I don't think any of these people that say teachers would be 'easy to replace' have a clue.

Online ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #108 on: March 01, 2011, 09:30:18 PM »
I've been looking at some of the latest polls -- this one says that if the election was held again today, Walker would lose to Democrat Tom Barrett, 52%-45%.  A New York Times poll says that 60% of Americans oppose weakening the bargaining rights of public employee unions.

Anyway, in his speech, Walker said he plans to cut state aid to schools by $834 million, while also prohibiting any increases in property tax to make up for this.  He also says this is okay because the schools will save $1 billion because of the increased contributions to insurance and pensions from the teachers.  He wants to cut $500 million from Medicare and aid to higher education by $250 million.  (He flunked out of college, so I guess he doesn't care if anyone else goes or not.)

Experts say the plan is based on too many assumptions.  For instance, there's no telling how much would be saved on the local level through increased contributions.  For one thing, current union contracts, some of them only just negotiated, would have to expire before the contributions could go up.  Also, the Milwaukee city attorney has issued a legal opinion that the state is unable to force an increase in pension contributions at the local level.  The state constitution has a provision allowing local governments to set their own rules as far as pensions.



Walker is also being criticized for refusing to reopen the capitol building to protesters.  This morning a county judge issued an order for the building to be made open to the public, as it usually is, but Walker has been slow to let protesters back in -- even though the order should have been acted on immediately.  Rumor has it that only Republicans and Tea Party members can get in without any fuss.  Reportedly, Dane County Sheriff David Mahoney, upon hearing that access to the building would be blocked, pulled his deputies from the area because it isn't their job to act as "palace guards."

And I hear they have crowds of 25,000 in Columbus for their protests, which I'm pretty sure surprises no one.

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Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2011, 09:57:20 PM »
You know, I recently read an opinion piece (I can't find it again despite looking) that the US is actually pretty well steamed in general. The way Vekseid put it a few months ago is that America is "surprisingly ripe for revolution". People are desperate and if they think their government is going to take away what little they have left then they're going to react violently. If you look at it, WWI was started with two bullets and a lot of tension. The second American Civil War might well start with an ill thought out bill and a crooked governor. :P

I'm not the gloom and doom type, and I don't like reading the same people post the same pessimistic crap over and over again and again and again and (god, we get it already)... but if things continue in this vein, it will spell an awful lot of disaster for the politicians who push it, and we might end up seeing the limits of our peaceful transfers of power that we've been so proud of.

Online ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2011, 09:08:31 AM »
Wisconsin is pretty well steamed at this point, that's for sure.

There's one thing that Walker's been right about all along: People in Wisconsin are, by and large, polite.  We make certain exceptions when it comes to football, but even there fans known as passionate rather than violent.  There's a certain live and let live attitude here that makes us prefer reasoned debate and friendly argument to in-your-face confrontation.  This is why these demonstrations have been categorized by stories of protesters having beers with counter-protesters; not tales of tear gas and riot gear.

However.

Walker and/or his advisors seem to have started out thinking that being polite means that we're pushovers.  As the protests continued, they started realizing their mistake, and are now trying to physically remove the protesters from the vicinity of the capitol building.  This, I believe, is a serious miscalculation.

Wisconsin has always had an unusually open policy in regard to the capitol building.  I've been there six or seven times in my life, and I don't recall ever seeing so much as a guard at the outer doors.  Certainly no one has ever stopped me to show ID or state my business there.  For the most part, anyone can just walk right in and explore, with only certain areas off-limits or requiring an appointment.

So Walker's sudden change in this policy is something of a shock.  The building is still almost entirely off-limits today, still in defiance of a court order.  Further hearings are being held this morning.  People are being allowed in only with badges, only to attend specific open meetings, and only as many are allowed as there are seats in a particular meeting room.

Not only are they not allowing people into the building, they're slowly starting to close off the streets leading to the building.  Those demonstrators still inside are having difficulties getting food and supplies, because no one is allowed to bring them in.  A nurse, who was allowed in to treat a protester suffering from late-stage cancer who has refused to leave, has reportedly not been allowed to retrieve her medical supplies, or to have anyone bring them to her.

They can only push people back so far -- the building is literally in the exact center of the downtown business area -- but the mere fact that they're doing this is going to spark something, and I don't see how it can be a good something.

Rumor has it that tunnels between the capitol building and the Risser Building nearby are being used to allow Walker supporters full access, while keeping everyone else out.  (During Walker's speech, the room was packed with people in favor of the bill while those against were all stuck outside.)  Entrances to these tunnels are reportedly being guarded by plainclothes agents from the Milwaukee bureau of the Wisconsin Department of Justice, agents who usually investigate such crimes as homicide, arson, and (interestingly) government corruption.

Now they're "palace guards", since the county law enforcement refused to take that role.

I feel like everyone is being forced to choose a side, and there's no way this is going to end well if it keeps festering like this.  Walker refuses to set an example and start healing the breach; and no one else is really in a position to do that.  I'm very, very uneasy and unhappy about the situation right now.

Offline Avi

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Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #111 on: March 02, 2011, 09:43:05 AM »
On a minor, relatively humorous note... apparently, Madison has palm trees and mounted police. O_O

Fox News Lies About "Violent Wisconsin Protests"

Another Fox News Fail, brought to you by the Badger State.

Offline Rhys

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #112 on: March 02, 2011, 11:47:26 AM »
Valerian, you hit it right on the head in your last post. Us Wisconsinites are not violent people. But if nurses are being denied medical supplies and Walker is breaking the law to hole up in the capital building forcing protesters to stand around outside in the dead of winter while Republican supporters are conveniently finding their way in, something's gotta give. The whole situation's a powder keg and civility is, to a certain degree, give and take. The people aren't going to leave and if he tries to starve them out, deny them supplies, etc. I could see things taking an unfortunate turn for the worse.

Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2011, 07:28:48 AM »
On a minor, relatively humorous note... apparently, Madison has palm trees and mounted police. O_O

Another Fox News Fail, brought to you by the Badger State.

Fox News did not lie. If you watch the COMPLETE segment, O’Reilly says before the footage roles, that it was taken from “All over the country.”

Watch it here: What's Behind the Anger in Wisconsin?

They then roll the footage again under Tobin’s interview, but O’Reilly had previously identified the footage as being from all over the country.

The more you know.

Online ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #114 on: March 03, 2011, 08:32:08 AM »
It still a bad job of editing, and makes them look rather silly.  On the other hand, everyone here is getting a good giggle out of it, making jokes about the beautiful tropical shores of Lake Mendota.  Heh.


In other amusing news, the Wisconsin legislature is currently considering a bill that would make prank phone calls illegal.

Quote
The bill would make it illegal to defraud, cause harm or wrongfully obtain any information of value from using a caller identification service to transmit misleading or inaccurate caller identification information. It would also prohibit individuals from masking their voices or providing a fake phone number to the call recipient, said Jason Vick, spokesperson for Honadel.

A district attorney would enforce the prohibition on call spoofing. A person in violation of the law would be subject to a fine of between $1,000 and $10,000 for each call made, according to the bill.

However, law enforcement and government regulatory agents who use phone spoofing to fight crime would be exempt from the law.

Although the authors of the bill denied any relationship, the bill’s circulation comes shortly after blogger Ian Murphy’s prank call to Gov. Scott Walker last week. Murphy impersonated billionaire Republican donor David Koch in the call.

Lawmakers introduced the bill at the end of the last session but ran out of time to pass it, Vick said.

I've been hunting through the legislative site, and can't find any evidence of such a bill being introduced prior to this, though I have to add that the site isn't very easy to search, so I may have missed it.

In any case, it seems to have escaped their notice that a state law would have no effect on any such calls placed from out of state (such as Walker's prank call).

People have started calling it the "Criminalize Bart Simpson Act".

Offline Rhys

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #115 on: March 03, 2011, 09:49:48 AM »
Fox News did not lie. If you watch the COMPLETE segment, O’Reilly says before the footage roles, that it was taken from “All over the country.”

Watch it here: What's Behind the Anger in Wisconsin?

They then roll the footage again under Tobin’s interview, but O’Reilly had previously identified the footage as being from all over the country.

The more you know.

Not only is it bad editing it also ties imagery of more violent protests to the civil protests occurring in Wisconsin. And if you watch when the images are spliced in, its entirely intentional.

They talk about people being bussed into Wisconsin to protest and then cut to images of violent protesters without any indication that those are not people that have been bussed in to behave in such a manner in Wisconsin.

They don't show a single protester for the entire thing that's not either getting in someone's face, putting his hands on someone or their property, or threatening violent acts save for wide, panning group shots that don't focus in on individuals for more than a couple seconds.

They talk about how the Liberal Media isn't covering the protesters getting out of control but how they badgered the tea party. They do this in a clip that, while indeed showing video from all over the country, has the label 'What's Behind the Anger in Wisconsin?' The protesters in Wisconsin haven't gotten out of control but that clearly doesn't matter. Going to bring it up anyway in a misleading attempt to make it look like they have.

Its deceptive, pure and simple. Another fine example of Fox News propaganda.



Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #116 on: March 03, 2011, 10:36:54 AM »
Oh I'm certain all the other news networks are pure as angels who pour out the truth and only the truth on any and all issues with no political emphasis or agenda whatsoever.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #117 on: March 03, 2011, 10:50:38 AM »
Nope, they're not. Fox is just the worst though. 'Fair and balanced' .. riiiiiiiight.

Online ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2011, 10:57:44 AM »
If you have any evidence of similar issues from other media sources covering the protests, Lyell, feel free to post it here.  My guess, however, is that you won't find anyone else who's stooping to Fox's level.



The latest tactic to try and get the absent senators back is aimed at their staff members, who are still at the capitol.

Quote
The resolution passed also requires the missing Democrats to reimburse the Senate for any costs incurred during attempts to force them to return. Their salary and other per diem payments can be withheld until they pay back the penalties and costs.

The resolution also authorizes the help of any law enforcement officer in the state to bring them back to the Capitol.

Republicans have already withheld the checks of missing Democrats from direct deposit and denied access to copying machines for their staff.

As reported in the Huffington Post, staffers of the Democratic senators are being assigned Republican senators as "supervisors".  These Republicans will have to sign the staffers' time sheets before they can be paid, and there are some concerns over whether or not the staffers might simply be fired by their new supervisors.

Considering that there are still serious questions over the legality of the use of state law enforcement in trying to make the senators return, I'm surprised they added that in.

Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #119 on: March 03, 2011, 11:33:39 AM »
If you have any evidence of similar issues from other media sources covering the protests, Lyell, feel free to post it here.  My guess, however, is that you won't find anyone else who's stooping to Fox's level.

You've given me an impossible task. On this individual issue, it wouldn't benefit a democrat influenced media outlet (which as far as I know sums up Fox's competitors (though I've been proven wrong before)) to play up the chaos levels of the Wisconsin protests.

Offline Remiel

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #120 on: March 03, 2011, 11:37:23 AM »
I'm only surprised this didn't happen sooner.

http://wisaflcio.typepad.com/WSEU-CBA-ULP.final.pdf

The Wisconsin State Employees Union has filed charges against Walker for refusing to bargain collectively with them.    And he is breaking the law -- regardless of the changes he wants to happen, refusing to negotiate with duly appointed union representatives breaks two Wisconsin statutes.

I don't suppose the punishment is much more than a fine or something, but I'm surprised that he didn't anticipate this.  Also, I can't wait to hear the next lame excuse or (probably more accurately) avoidance of the issue from him.

Wouldn't this be sufficient grounds to initiate a recall against the Governor?  I have to admit, I haven't been paying much attention, but from reading this thread it almost sounds like he is using gestapo tactics in an effort to quash dissent.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #121 on: March 03, 2011, 11:44:49 AM »
You have to move for a recall, or an action in the legislature to act - not likely and everyone knows that.

And I agree he should send out a rep to negotiate as in stall for as long as they can it didn't say under statute he has to do more than talk does it?

Online ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #122 on: March 03, 2011, 12:01:05 PM »
Wouldn't this be sufficient grounds to initiate a recall against the Governor?  I have to admit, I haven't been paying much attention, but from reading this thread it almost sounds like he is using gestapo tactics in an effort to quash dissent.
A recall is already in the works, though it can't officially begin until next January -- any official has to be in office for at least a year before a recall can happen.  Legal action from that refusal to negotiate, if any, is still pending as far as I know.

And again, as far as I know, all that has to happen is that negotiations have to be made.  There's nothing in the law that would require him to make any changes based on those negotiations.  But he refuses to compromise, and he's said that so loudly and so many times, I'm sure he feels unable to change his mind on that now.

You've given me an impossible task. On this individual issue, it wouldn't benefit a democrat influenced media outlet (which as far as I know sums up Fox's competitors (though I've been proven wrong before)) to play up the chaos levels of the Wisconsin protests.
There are plenty of non-democrat influenced sources on the web.  Believe me, I've found lots of them in my searching.  (I don't know about TV stations, though -- never watch the stuff.)  However, given the vast number of sources that state otherwise, I feel pretty safe in saying that the amount of violence has been extremely small.

The law enforcement agencies have been united in praising the demonstrations for their calm, reasonable atmosphere... and while they have come out in support of the protesters, remember that they are largely Republican as individuals; and as a group, officially supported Walker's campaign.

Offline Lyell

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #123 on: March 03, 2011, 12:17:16 PM »
They're also largely part of a union, protesting with the rest of them in their off duty hours. As for calm and reasonable, I wouldn't be too quick to mention that to Glenn Grothman.

Online ValerianTopic starter

Re: Scott Walker, Union Buster
« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2011, 12:47:36 PM »
Grothman is also on record as saying that he never once felt actually threatened by the crowd.  Interestingly, I've seen several right-wing sources saying that the intervention of Democrat Brett Halsey was part of a staged event designed to make the Democrats look better.

The police and fire unions are also exempt from the limitations that Walker wants to impose on other public employees, so they have no immediate personal reasons to side with the protesters.  As far as I've seen, not even Walker's most adamant supporters have accused the police of any favoritism in their dealings with demonstrators, and the fact is, aside from the nine arrests very early on (mentioned earlier in the thread), mainly of people trying to get into the Senate and Assembly chambers, there have been no arrests.

If there really are people doing things they should be arrested for, then I would expect the Republicans to be screaming for the police to act.  I've found absolutely no sign of that.