You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 04, 2016, 04:10:00 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her  (Read 5914 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jude

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #75 on: February 02, 2011, 11:11:50 AM »
I took your post to be muuuch more extreme than it was, sorry :(

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #76 on: February 02, 2011, 11:16:48 AM »
Me, too. :(

The whole subject is upset-making.

Offline Noelle

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #77 on: February 02, 2011, 01:40:02 PM »
SUDDENLY, CUPCAKES




« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 01:44:18 PM by Noelle »

Offline Zakharra

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2011, 02:29:46 PM »
...Because I thought I was clear in mentioning women I thought needed the federal funding the most? I thought "low-income" solved most of your complaints there, but do correct me if I'm wrong.

 I might have taken it wrong, but this:
Quote
I don't think I would fight too hard if they reduced federal funding for abortions to women in distressed situations -- rape, incest, and my own addition, a sliding scale for those with low income. I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical

 Seems to say that if they reduced federal funding, you would not fight that hard. Possibly a miscommunication issue here. No worries if I took that wrong.  :)

Offline Noelle

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2011, 03:01:32 PM »
I'm saying if they mandated federal funding for abortion go only to women in distressed situations (rape, incest, low-income), I wouldn't really be terribly upset about it, so long as it was still made available in general to all other women.

Offline Zakharra

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2011, 04:08:13 PM »
 Alright, confusion on my end then.

Offline Noelle

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2011, 04:28:30 PM »
Poor wording on my end :) GOOD TALK, TEAM.

Offline itsbeenfun2000

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #82 on: February 03, 2011, 10:15:01 PM »
I am glad to see people can settle down and work thru it. nice job all

Offline Rhys

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #83 on: February 04, 2011, 07:43:28 PM »
At the risk of reopening a rather foul can of worms, I would like to say my piece on this subject. There has been some debate here on how the law works and how changing the term 'rape' to 'forcible rape' would impact things. And in part, I agree with both sides of the argument. On one end, we don't know how this would be interpreted in the courts or even if once the law became law the term 'forcible' would still be in it. On the other, it does indeed set a very dangerous loophole.

By using the term 'forcible rape' you are, in addition to being redundant, opening the door for a judge or lawyer, who's duty it is to interpret the law, to say that this terminology shows that some rape (that which isn't what they consider 'forcible rape') can leave the victim without access to federal funding for their abortion. Do I know if any lawmaker would do this? Nope. Do I think the number of lawmakers out there who may do this in any way represent a majority or even a 'large number' of US lawmakers? No. But if you put that language on the books you open the door for someone to misuse it. And if one, single woman were to have to go to trial and argue over whether or not the manner in which she was raped was 'forcible,' then damage done.

The Republicans are well aware of this. They've argued over tiny wording issues in the law before. They have lawyers on their staffs, and many of them have at one point worked in a law-related field as well. And given their track record of attacking abortion/rape laws (See links posted by active users earlier) and fighting against giving rape victims the right to defend themselves in a fair, judicial court (Can't post links currently but a couple years ago 30 Republicans including Mitch McConnell and John McCain voted against passing a bill brought to the floor by Al Franken that would cut federal funding to any federally contracted company that made its employees sign contracts stating that if they were sexually assaulted, harassed or discriminated against, they could only seek recourse in private arbitration.), I am not exactly inclined to chalk this up to accident or ignorance.

Thankfully/Hopefully we're only ever going to have to discuss this in the theoretical what with the wording getting changed back to 'rape' and all.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #84 on: February 04, 2011, 09:19:21 PM »
The Republicans are well aware of this. They've argued over tiny wording issues in the law before. They have lawyers on their staffs, and many of them have at one point worked in a law-related field as well.

I'd wager that percentage is closer to 'most' or even 'all' - they are part of the law-making branch, so I would hope that they had studied at least some law.  (My hope holds true for members of all parties.  No getting a pass on your studies just because you're an Independent.)

Offline Rhys

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #85 on: February 04, 2011, 09:46:01 PM »
I go with many only because it is not 'all'. It may've been closer to all at one point but with the Tea Party on the rise in recent years and the backlash against career politicians, we currently have at least a few Republican lawmakers who haven't worked in law-related fields.

If I'm not mistaken, Rand Paul is one such example. Though he founded Kentucky Taxpayers United his job outside of his activism prior to becoming a Senator was being a ophthalmologist. He has a doctorate in medicine. As far as I know, he has no law-related experience beyond whatever he picked up working with his father's campaign and whatever he has picked up on the road to becoming a senator.

That said, I'm sure they have all studied law, to some varying degree, independently. Then again, so have I. Doesn't mean I should be a Senator. ;)

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #86 on: February 04, 2011, 10:05:48 PM »
Oh no - I'm not saying that 'background in law' implies 'suitable for being a legislator', but more that 'suitable for being a legislator' should imply 'background in law'.  :D

Offline mystictiger

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #87 on: February 05, 2011, 05:20:25 AM »
Oh no - I'm not saying that 'background in law' implies 'suitable for being a legislator', but more that 'suitable for being a legislator' should imply 'background in law'.  :D

Better a background in law rather than a background in raping people. Although perhaps a background in being raped might make for the best laws. Otherwise, we can only imagine the harm. And yes, men can be raped too but are far less likely to need the abortion afterwards.

Offline elone

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #88 on: February 05, 2011, 11:10:20 PM »
Heard a news story today that the word "forcible" was removed from the bill. I guess we are not the only ones having this debate.  Good to know our Congressional representatives have something to keep them busy. lol.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #89 on: February 06, 2011, 12:22:16 AM »
Putting the whole issue of rape aside for just a moment...aren't these the same Republicans who castigated Obama for not focusing on the economy, for pushing "side projects" like health care reform?

I'm not exactly seeing a sharp focus from the GOP on the economy.  More like tilting at various windmills, fighting battles on side issues that they know they can't win, like repealing "Obamacare" (they don't have the votes) and eliminating abortion (don't have the votes for that either, and most of the public outside the GOP's religious base is much more concerned with the economy and foreign relations than with changing abortion laws).

But it doesn't surprise me.  I knew the GOP was long on rhetoric but short on real answers.

Offline Rhys

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #90 on: February 06, 2011, 01:16:31 AM »
Heard a news story today that the word "forcible" was removed from the bill. I guess we are not the only ones having this debate.  Good to know our Congressional representatives have something to keep them busy. lol.

Yes. They got hit pretty hard by Jon Stewart, much of the mainstream media and a good number of rights groups. Once they realized that this was going to be a big deal, they didn't have a whole lot of options.

And you're right about the GOP's current lack of focus OldSchoolGamer. My thought on it is that we're going to see much of the same until 2012. While I won't go as far as to say they want people to suffer, I will say they want them fed up enough with the economy and other issues that they'll, theoretically, blame it on Obama and vote against him. When our economy is in the shape its in now and the unemployment rate is still hovering around 9.5% the fact that you've got members of the GOP saying their number one priority is unseating Obama in 2012, other members saying their number one priority is getting rid of Obamacare and others who are looking at slashing money that goes towards education, technology, social advancement, etc. while giving money to prisons and other pet programs that neither create jobs or promote greater innovations that allow us to better compete in the global market, its rather clear that they don't have their priorities straight.

Offline Jude

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #91 on: February 06, 2011, 12:18:11 PM »
If you actually read their comments they didn't remove it because they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar.  This is a direct quote from one of the chief sponsors:
Late Thursday, Smith issued this statement stating “Overwhelming majorities of Americans do not want their tax dollars used to pay for abortion. While some have misconstrued revised language in our bill the use of the term forcible was not intended to change the meaning of the time-tested protections and exceptions currently contained in the Hyde Amendment.”
Will anyone be persuaded by this?  I doubt it.  Very few, if any, publications that slandered Republicans over this will post a retraction saying "we were wrong," and even that won't really change the minds that the original story already influenced (see http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bnyhan/nyhan-reifler.pdf if you want to learn about the backfire effect wherein additional information actually makes things worse in extreme political adherents).

Something can be learned by this however to those that are impartial enough to see it:  this is why political discourse is so poisonous in our country.  When vile accusations are fabricated from cynical interpretations and passed around as if they were fact, it destroys our ability to find any political common ground.  I'm not saying this is a phenomenon unique to liberals (it's not, Republicans do this too, like they did with the death panels accusations), but it is destroying our political discourse.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #92 on: February 06, 2011, 02:44:32 PM »
If you actually read their comments they didn't remove it because they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar.  This is a direct quote from one of the chief sponsors:Will anyone be persuaded by this?  I doubt it.  Very few, if any, publications that slandered Republicans over this will post a retraction saying "we were wrong," and even that won't really change the minds that the original story already influenced (see http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bnyhan/nyhan-reifler.pdf if you want to learn about the backfire effect wherein additional information actually makes things worse in extreme political adherents).

Something can be learned by this however to those that are impartial enough to see it:  this is why political discourse is so poisonous in our country.  When vile accusations are fabricated from cynical interpretations and passed around as if they were fact, it destroys our ability to find any political common ground.  I'm not saying this is a phenomenon unique to liberals (it's not, Republicans do this too, like they did with the death panels accusations), but it is destroying our political discourse.

The other question, however, is why they are even pushing this at the moment.  Seems to me that when the economy is in a state of collapse (and it is--if you think this "recovery" is real, try taking away the $1.4T in fiat money and see how many months it lasts), that takes priority over tinkering with abortion laws, rape definition notwithstanding.

This just goes to show NEITHER party has a clue.

Offline Aludiana of the Dusk

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2011, 05:59:55 PM »
My personal opinion on the subject of this bill is that it was so ambiguously worded on purpose. Politicians are dumb about what happens in the reality that exists for most people (i.e. the people that have "normal" jobs; or maybe don't because they lost them) but they are very aware of what happens in their world of politicos. I highly doubt they could not know the reaction their insertion of the word "forcible" before rape would cause a stir, particularly among pro-choice women's groups. I think now that the republicans are feasibly in charge of congress they are having the same "oh shit" moment that Obama had when he took the office of president, when he got a cold bucket of reality thrown in his face. I, personally think the current congress is just as clueless as the last congress at how to approach fixing the economy, and this is a smokescreen tactic (I also acknowledge the possibility that I'm giving them more intellectual/creative credit than due here.)

It also seems to me that abortion shouldn't even be an issue to begin with; it seems to me that the practice of forbidding abortions is directly related to some ancient religions, and that if "separation of church and state" is going to be interpreted to remove religious practices, such as faculty organized prayer, from public schools; the government should at least admit that it doesn't have a place regulating such things. Instead, since the practice of abortion was restricted to the point of being illegal in many places it became a "women's lib" issue, which is something the government can control.

I've dealt with the fallout of having an abortion. I'll admit it, and no matter how much men might think they have to deal with it too, they don't to the extent a woman does. They don't become an emotional trainwreck, they don't lose lifelong friends because of the decision and they certainly don't have their names published on a list of "biggest sluts and whores of the year" in an unofficial school newspaper. I'm not saying they shouldn't have any say in the matter, because they should. Whether married or not, if you get a girl pregnant you should sit down and talk with her about your feelings. Men however should not have final say.

And women aren't all evil conservative pro-life activitsts, or baby aborting liberals, despite what the people "in charge" would seem to have you think. We are quite capable of making rational decisions and taking care of ourselves. So why don't the men just step out of the arena and leave it up to the people who are directly affected by the law?

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2011, 07:33:13 PM »
Unlocked; please remember to keep it civil. Ask for clarifications; conversely, please make attempts to clarify positions without being asked.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:14:07 PM by Trieste »

Offline Sandman02

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #95 on: February 09, 2011, 07:33:51 PM »
  Perhaps there is one take-away point that everybody can agree on - the Republicans were elected on the platform of reintroducing some form of fiscal responsibility back into our government. THIS and this only should be their only priority. The measly amount of money that could theoretically be saved by no longer covering abortion services to the extent that they're covered is not worth the political and social price of dividing the country over contentious issues like this. 

  And yes, now they've backed off and hopefully will take a lesson - at least until we're sure that this whole country will not be completely insolvent within the next few years.

*edited to correct a typo in order to make this post actually make sense! Sorry...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 06:38:25 PM by Sandman02 »

Offline Serephino

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2011, 07:54:21 PM »
Actually, I saw on the news last night that they're trying again, but this time instead of restricting federal funding, they want to take it away completely.  They're trying to get it added to the health care bill that they supposedly want to repeal so badly.  Maybe this is how they intend to do it, but still, it's an asshole thing to do.

Offline Aludiana of the Dusk

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2011, 02:28:08 PM »
Actually, I saw on the news last night that they're trying again, but this time instead of restricting federal funding, they want to take it away completely.  They're trying to get it added to the health care bill that they supposedly want to repeal so badly.  Maybe this is how they intend to do it, but still, it's an asshole thing to do.

If that is true, Serephino, then it just proves that nothing is ever as evil as politicians claim it is; at least not as long as they can manipulate it for their own agendas.

Offline squidsyd7

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #98 on: March 29, 2011, 01:32:14 AM »
This honestly makes me sick.

Rape is about violence, that's true, but many women are raped by people they know in a non-violent manner.  If she says no and he does it anyway, that's rape.

I've had friends who have been raped by men they know, men they went on dates with, men they believed to be upstanding and moral citizens.  When a man holds you down in the back of his truck, covers your mouth with his arm, and forces you to have sex with him, it doesn't matter if he hit you.  That's still rape, and it's still wrong.

It seems to me that some people just want to take away every basic human right we have.  There's no way to protect ourselves anymore.  Honestly just sickening.

Offline Jude

Re: According to House Republicans, it's only rape if you hit her
« Reply #99 on: March 29, 2011, 07:15:33 AM »
Did... you read the thread, or just the headline?  I'm going to guess the latter.  Please take time to review the entirety of the comments so that you can understand the nuances of the issue before coming to a conclusion.  It is probably especially relevant to note that this was taken out of the bill without a fight and the supporters of the bill never once claimed they were trying to do what they were accused of (in fact they said quite the opposite).  So by the word and deed of the House Republicans, this was a manufactured controversy over vague wording, not a conspiracy to make it "not rape" unless there's violence involved.