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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 54140 times)

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Offline Shjade

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #675 on: January 23, 2012, 04:39:53 PM »
Right...which I do outside of games anyway. Given most quests have just one possible outcome and few options for how to complete them (sure, you can kill X guy however you like, but you still have to kill him), it just doesn't seem like there's much role-playing to be done within the structure of the game itself. *shrugs*

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #676 on: January 23, 2012, 05:11:42 PM »
Right...which I do outside of games anyway. Given most quests have just one possible outcome and few options for how to complete them (sure, you can kill X guy however you like, but you still have to kill him), it just doesn't seem like there's much role-playing to be done within the structure of the game itself. *shrugs*
No, see what you want is choices. Choices and role-playing do not come hand in hand.

Offline Shjade

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #677 on: January 23, 2012, 05:51:22 PM »
No, what I want is character development and expression of self. There are choices in the game, specifically choices as to which places you go when and to do what. There aren't any opportunities to express a character beyond what you're told you are, however. In some cases this could be achieved via choices (case in point, the Thieves' Guild quests, which provide plenty of opportunities to fulfill the given missions in a much more ethical fashion than the asshole douchebaggery you're forced to do if you want to complete them by the game's set requirements; easiest example is the second mission of roughing up local merchants for their payoffs - you could very easily walk outside the guild, wait a few hours, go back in and pay up the debts yourself if you can afford it, then just lie about having gotten the money from the merchants...except you can't because the game won't let you), but in other cases it's simply a matter of having your character demonstrate any sense of personal investment in ongoing activities whatsoever. There isn't any in Skyrim. It's all, as you said, in your head.

These two things are conflicting. You see, if my character's solely defined by what's going on in my head - perhaps making her into a compassionate knightly type person who's mainly interested in justice and helping people out - and then I run into a questline that tells me I'm something completely different (for instance, the cannibal cult questline), then which is it? Is my character what she seems to be in my head, or is she what the game is telling me she is? You can't have it both ways. Sure, you can just not follow up on that questline, but you can't, say, report them to the authorities for their activities. You just have to leave that quest sitting in your log forever. That's not playing a role; that's purposely NOT playing part of the game, which is the opposite of playing a consistent role throughout the entire game.

If you have to not play part of the game to make it a role-playing game, I'd call that a design flaw for a "role-playing game."

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #678 on: January 23, 2012, 05:56:37 PM »
No, what I want is character development and expression of self. There are choices in the game, specifically choices as to which places you go when and to do what. There aren't any opportunities to express a character beyond what you're told you are, however. In some cases this could be achieved via choices (case in point, the Thieves' Guild quests, which provide plenty of opportunities to fulfill the given missions in a much more ethical fashion than the asshole douchebaggery you're forced to do if you want to complete them by the game's set requirements; easiest example is the second mission of roughing up local merchants for their payoffs - you could very easily walk outside the guild, wait a few hours, go back in and pay up the debts yourself if you can afford it, then just lie about having gotten the money from the merchants...except you can't because the game won't let you), but in other cases it's simply a matter of having your character demonstrate any sense of personal investment in ongoing activities whatsoever. There isn't any in Skyrim. It's all, as you said, in your head.

These two things are conflicting. You see, if my character's solely defined by what's going on in my head - perhaps making her into a compassionate knightly type person who's mainly interested in justice and helping people out - and then I run into a questline that tells me I'm something completely different (for instance, the cannibal cult questline), then which is it? Is my character what she seems to be in my head, or is she what the game is telling me she is? You can't have it both ways. Sure, you can just not follow up on that questline, but you can't, say, report them to the authorities for their activities. You just have to leave that quest sitting in your log forever. That's not playing a role; that's purposely NOT playing part of the game, which is the opposite of playing a consistent role throughout the entire game.

If you have to not play part of the game to make it a role-playing game, I'd call that a design flaw for a "role-playing game."
Well, all games are role playing games. How much freedom you're given in that role depends on the developer involved.

Give me a game and I can tell you your role in it, if you don't believe me.

Offline Shjade

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #679 on: January 23, 2012, 08:10:52 PM »
If your argument is really "all games are role-playing games," then you're saying the genre doesn't exist since there is no distinction between any two games using the definition "role-playing game," making Skyrim solely an action game.

Cool by me. =D

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #680 on: January 23, 2012, 10:17:00 PM »
If your argument is really "all games are role-playing games," then you're saying the genre doesn't exist since there is no distinction between any two games using the definition "role-playing game," making Skyrim solely an action game.

Cool by me. =D
Nooooo. Skyrim is an action-adventure game. :D Action is for linear levels.

Seriously, can you think of one video game that isn't a simulation of something like a poker game that couldn't be started with:

You take the role of ______.

Offline Shjade

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #681 on: January 23, 2012, 11:14:31 PM »
I think you're confusing the use of a character with the embodiment of a character.

When you're playing Mario games, the point isn't being Mario, developing his character, learning more about his needs and talents and struggles and etc. It's playing a game using Mario. You don't take his role; you use it to achieve your goals.

But for the sake of your argument, sure, easy: Pong. Go ahead, tell me the "role" you're playing in Pong.

How about Beatmania?

Dance Dance Revolution?

Minecraft? ("You take the role of Some Dude." ...right.)

Terraria? (See above.)

Dwarf Fortress? (As far as I know the player entity doesn't exist in the game world, you're just controlling things. I didn't play it for more than about a day, though; I could be wrong.)

Minesweeper?

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #682 on: January 24, 2012, 07:27:07 AM »
I think you're confusing the use of a character with the embodiment of a character.

When you're playing Mario games, the point isn't being Mario, developing his character, learning more about his needs and talents and struggles and etc. It's playing a game using Mario. You don't take his role; you use it to achieve your goals.

But for the sake of your argument, sure, easy: Pong. Go ahead, tell me the "role" you're playing in Pong.

How about Beatmania?

Dance Dance Revolution?

Minecraft? ("You take the role of Some Dude." ...right.)

Terraria? (See above.)

Dwarf Fortress? (As far as I know the player entity doesn't exist in the game world, you're just controlling things. I didn't play it for more than about a day, though; I could be wrong.)

Minesweeper?
You act like no one's ever thrown pong at me before. That one's easy.

A tennis player/hockey player/ping PONG player.

Beatmania and DDR are simulations. I'm not too familiar with beatmania

Minecraft: A miner

Terrinia: I think that's Minecraft with a plot so that would be easy if I actually played it. Probably safe with magical miner.

Dwarf Fortress: Dwarven Leader/god perhaps?

Remember your role isn't in so much what you say, it's what you do.

Mario: You play Mario, you might not develop his character but in playing the game you're taking on his character. He's a hard-working 9 to 5 plumber on a drug trip looking to break off a piece. How can you not get into that role?

Offline Shjade

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #683 on: January 24, 2012, 08:35:59 AM »
There's no player behind the paddle in Pong.

Beatmania and DDR are simulations. So is Skyrim. What's your point?

A miner who just happens to know how to create magical enchantments and alchemical concoctions from memory?

There's no more plot to Terraria than Minecraft, only more monsters.

That you have to say "perhaps" suggests that there's no role presented by the game itself.

That Mario is a plumber was something created about the character by the TV show, completely made up from scratch. Why? Because the game doesn't tell you anything about Mario except that he wears coveralls and goes through huge pipes. He could be a farmer for all we know. Or an eccentric mathematician.

You can make up roles for any game. That doesn't mean they exist within the game.

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #684 on: January 24, 2012, 08:42:19 AM »
There's no player behind the paddle in Pong.

Beatmania and DDR are simulations. So is Skyrim. What's your point?

A miner who just happens to know how to create magical enchantments and alchemical concoctions from memory?

There's no more plot to Terraria than Minecraft, only more monsters.

That you have to say "perhaps" suggests that there's no role presented by the game itself.

That Mario is a plumber was something created about the character by the TV show, completely made up from scratch. Why? Because the game doesn't tell you anything about Mario except that he wears coveralls and goes through huge pipes. He could be a farmer for all we know. Or an eccentric mathematician.

You can make up roles for any game. That doesn't mean they exist within the game.
That I have to say perhaps implies that I've not played the game extensively, also, magical miner could apply to both games then. Plot isn't required, I just thought that's what it was. I don't play it. Pong is really just a simulation of tennis/hockey, ping pong. My point, and I'm going to end it here because this is getting very off topic, is that you don't have to have choices to have an RPG, a character's role is just as much defined by what you cannot make the character do.

Offline Elkay

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #685 on: January 30, 2012, 10:27:07 AM »
I don't see Skyrim as an RPG, more of a sandbox game with an ending. You could spend forever roaming around killing stuff, and eventually, you run out of things to kill and you start a new game.

Also, Minecraft, you're basically a God if you turn on Creative mode. Terraria is different as in you're an adventurer, out to explore and kill, not build then explore.

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #686 on: February 01, 2012, 02:30:59 PM »
I've got to say, there's something to smithing. I Just made a suit of iron armor with a banded iron... well armor... that's all they call it. Something gratifying about making your own killing implements.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #687 on: February 01, 2012, 02:51:34 PM »
That's why my Nord Sword Dude is a Smith, Indiku.  It's so much fun to make the toys you butcher your enemies with.  So you can stand on their soon to be corpses and crow, "I made this!"

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #688 on: February 01, 2012, 03:04:50 PM »
That's why my Nord Sword Dude is a Smith, Indiku.  It's so much fun to make the toys you butcher your enemies with.  So you can stand on their soon to be corpses and crow, "I made this!"

which is why I like naming my weapons.. I've got 2 named (and enchanted) war axes and a shield ('Steadfast')

Offline Chris Brady

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #689 on: February 01, 2012, 03:10:52 PM »
which is why I like naming my weapons.. I've got 2 named (and enchanted) war axes and a shield ('Steadfast')
Yeah, I'm actually actively levelling up Enchanting as well, so I CAN rename my toys.

I have a soul catching axe I've named Soul Rake.  I had a Flame Tongue (You know those Draugr toys?  Well, if you do all the Companion story quests, the Skyforge allow you to remake them in Nord Hero weapons) but the enchant on it sucked, so I'm going to recraft and name it something else...  :)

I'm also looking into making a pair of Daedric swords named Fire and Ice for the enchants I'll put on them.  Yes, I'm not very original, but they're mine!  I made them!

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #690 on: February 01, 2012, 03:29:23 PM »
Yeah, I'm actually actively levelling up Enchanting as well, so I CAN rename my toys.

I have a soul catching axe I've named Soul Rake.  I had a Flame Tongue (You know those Draugr toys?  Well, if you do all the Companion story quests, the Skyforge allow you to remake them in Nord Hero weapons) but the enchant on it sucked, so I'm going to recraft and name it something else...  :)

I'm also looking into making a pair of Daedric swords named Fire and Ice for the enchants I'll put on them.  Yes, I'm not very original, but they're mine!  I made them!

My enchants is the 80s. I want to cap it out like I did with smithing before I resume the storyline.

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #691 on: February 01, 2012, 10:04:29 PM »
I made a duel wielding dagger guy who had some enchantment. Two elven daggers called Shame and Blame. :]

Offline Anjasa

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #692 on: February 02, 2012, 06:30:25 AM »
My redguard has maxed smithing and enchanting.

Her gear is sexy.

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #693 on: February 02, 2012, 10:15:31 PM »
My redguard has maxed smithing and enchanting.

Her gear is sexy.
I don't even want to fathom the cash spent on things like ore, ingots, and soul gems. Though, actually... the gems don't need to have souls to be used. You only need one enchantment, and if you iron dagger a lot of your smithing then you'll have a lot of items to enchant. I don't want to see what happens to the game balance after that though.

Kind of like Stevedor the level fifty merchant/enchanter/jewelery maker... the drauger don't care...

Offline Frank Reshman

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #694 on: February 02, 2012, 11:58:52 PM »
I have to say, getting 100 smithing was a pain.  Iron daggers are indeed the easiest to max it out on, but just getting so many iron ores and iron bars and then waiting for the stores to re-stock was just aggravating.  Still, once you can craft all of your armor, those ridiculously heavy dragon bones/hides become useful.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #695 on: February 03, 2012, 12:04:58 AM »
Enchanting is the one that is being a pain to me. I got smithing up to 100 fairly easy (leather bracers are your friend.. oh hai mr bear, wolf, saber cat, mammoth.. :D )

Offline Frank Reshman

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #696 on: February 03, 2012, 12:09:57 AM »
The only problem I have with enchanting is I never have a good ratio of items to soul gems.  I either have way too many items, or way too many soul gems.  Still, Smithing and Enchanting are NOTHING compared to the beast that is Alchemy.  Holy.  Crap.  I think I'm still on level 30-40, and most of my other skills are in the upper 60's.  I even work on it...  :/

Offline Shjade

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #697 on: February 03, 2012, 01:19:01 AM »
I think you gain enchanting skill for "refilling" your enchanted weapons as well, so you should only need one enchanted weapon (preferably enchanted with Soul Trap) and a bunch of soul gems (which you will fill with the aforementioned weapon) and then refill the weapon's charges to skill up.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #698 on: February 03, 2012, 01:32:46 AM »
I think you gain enchanting skill for "refilling" your enchanted weapons as well, so you should only need one enchanted weapon (preferably enchanted with Soul Trap) and a bunch of soul gems (which you will fill with the aforementioned weapon) and then refill the weapon's charges to skill up.

Slowly.. very slowly.. much slower than enchanting 'merchant chow' items.

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #699 on: February 03, 2012, 11:27:29 AM »
You never know how much you're going to miss ice form until you don't have it. D:

I could have really used it against that Drauger Death Lord. Of course if I get one more word in Elemental Furry I'll be able to swing my claymore so fast it probably won't matter. The second word makes it as fast as a one handed axe. When fighting drauger, guardian circles can never be underestimated.