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Author Topic: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party  (Read 4816 times)

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Offline TriesteTopic starter

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"GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« on: December 01, 2010, 11:51:33 AM »
How is this not obstructionist? How is this not the political equivalent of stamping your feet and threatening to hold your breath until people do what you want? Explain this to me, please. I would like to understand it in terms of the GOP not being stupid. And you can't even say it's 'just the extremists', because it's every Republican in the Senate. Unless every single Senate Republican is an extremist now?

Senate GOP pledges to block all bills until tax dispute resolved


Offline Jude

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2010, 12:23:19 PM »
DISCLAIMER:  There is sarcasm, snark, and irritation in this post, though it is not directed at anyone reading this.

1)  Even if the tax cuts are not extended, this does not amount to the Democrats raising taxes.

I'm so tired of hearing this idiotic point repeated over and over again ad naseum.  If you make the argument that this tax cut being allowed to expire, as it was designed to by Republicans years ago, is somehow the Democrats fulfilling the "tax and spend liberal" prophecy, then you need to go sit at the kiddy table so the rest of us can have a serious adult conversation.  It is ridiculous to claim that the Democrats would be responsible for a tax increase that was planned years ago by Republicans.  I heard this argument propagated yet again today by Orren Hatch, and found myself hoping that the roof of the Capital Building would cave in, crushing him to death on national TV.

2)  You can't have it both ways America.  Either you're worried about the deficit so you can't support increased spending or you believe in Keynesian Economics.

The fact that the same people who are supposedly so concerned about the debt are now crying for the extension of this tax cut (even those who only want the Middle Class part extended -- who are undoubtedly Middle Class) is ridiculously hypocritical.  You mean you're against spending that doesn't benefit you?  Wow, I'm shocked.

3)  Making the argument that tax cuts aren't stimulative because we've lost jobs while these cuts were enacted is stupid.

-3 + 1 results in -2, which is still a negative number.  This does not mean that 1 is negative.  I watched this argument made on the floor of the Congress on Cspan by a Democratic senator who should probably be unplugged from the feeding tube and breathing machine she's on.

4)  Hey Republicans, remember that "listen to the American people" argument you made in relation to healthcare?

Well, the American people are against extension of tax cuts for those making over $250,000.  Please adhere to your own rationale or stop spreading populist rhetoric.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 12:26:28 PM by Jude »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2010, 12:26:23 PM »
I don't think either party has a sole claim asshatery, though I will grant you this a new level of party stupidity.

I do think that the Democrats were more than happy to sit on the clock and quietly let the tax cuts run out. That way they can honestly claim that they 'didn't increase' taxes.

Two sides.. two stories.. two parties playing games rather than doing what they promised and be active and help the public.

Though, I think the ultimatum is a bit on the heavy handed side of things Trieste, but was I expect of the type of republican that learned how to play back in the 80s/90s.

Additional note: Of course the idea of either side, sitting down and working out a bipartisan compromise is utterly silly and shouldn't be expected of politicians. Statesmen and LEADERS work in comprise and bipartisan policies that work for the people, and we've not seen any of those in the halls of congress in a long time.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 12:31:58 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Jude

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2010, 12:36:52 PM »
The compromise is pretty obvious.  Extend the tax cuts for everyone but the richest people, then give the richest people a cut that is smaller than what it was.  Cut it in half -- tadaaa, basic math wins again!  Or they could scale it down by a factor of those who are for and against, say previous tax code * 42/100 (since 42 want the tax cuts for 250k+ extended).  It won't happen though.

Offline Noelle

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2010, 12:48:43 PM »
I read an article similar to this earlier and was hoping to see it discussed here.

Quote
"Last month, the American people issued their verdict on the Democrat's priorities," replied Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Kentucky. "We need to show the American people that we care more about them and their ability to pay their bills than we do about the special interests' legislative Christmas-list."

This makes me especially angry -- I'm so tired of politicians thinking they're speaking for "the people", this big, mythical, like-minded group that frankly does not exist when really they're just using "the people" as a workaround to say "people that agree with me". Both sides do it and they need to knock it the fuck off. These douchebags especially aren't speaking for me, they're certainly not representing me, and they're most definitely not acting the way I would act.

Most of all, they need to stop supposing that just because one party gets voted out, it means the other party has all the right answers. It's been all over the media that supposedly "the people" are pissed with both parties, that "the people" supposedly want bipartisanship, and yet here we are watching the tragicomedy that is our politics degrade into what is essentially a large, elephantine (pun intended) child with its fingers in its ears screaming LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU until the exasperated mother just gives it what it wants or is removed by Child Services when it finally breaks down and shakes the child into a coma.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2010, 12:49:07 PM »
The compromise is pretty obvious.  Extend the tax cuts for everyone but the richest people, then give the richest people a cut that is smaller than what it was.  Cut it in half -- tadaaa, basic math wins again!  Or they could scale it down by a factor of those who are for and against, say previous tax code * 42/100 (since 42 want the tax cuts for 250k+ extended).  It won't happen though.

Oh but that wouldn't do. You would have to work with *gasp* the democrats/republicans. You'd have to cross the party line, hold your hand out and meet your fellow congressman/senator from the other party and TALK things out.

That's not good.

Partisanship is good to a POINT.

The last two decades have been a steady tide of steadily rigid outlooks and the collective retention of sticks up the collective assess of both parties.

I started to feel this way when Nancy Pelosi held a press conference berating a handful of Republicans for not going along with her initiative while by my count there were more than a few of her own party who didn't support it. (Wish I could recall what this vote was about).

We need to get our elected officials to pull the sticks out and pull up the Websters dictionary to word 'compromise'.

Offline Kaizen

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2010, 05:15:15 PM »
How is this not obstructionist? How is this not the political equivalent of stamping your feet and threatening to hold your breath until people do what you want? Explain this to me, please. I would like to understand it in terms of the GOP not being stupid. And you can't even say it's 'just the extremists', because it's every Republican in the Senate. Unless every single Senate Republican is an extremist now?

Senate GOP pledges to block all bills until tax dispute resolved

It is obstructionist, but they are acting together, as one unified party to get their goals met.  Is not every other political party that ever existed guilty of the exact same thing? It's politics.

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Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2010, 05:33:25 PM »
However, by accepting that it's 'just politics', aren't we virtually encouraging the behavior?  Instead of an Adult-Adult interaction, they're going for Child-Parent (or more likely, Child-Child) situation.

Offline Kaizen

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2010, 05:56:04 PM »
However, by accepting that it's 'just politics', aren't we virtually encouraging the behavior?  Instead of an Adult-Adult interaction, they're going for Child-Parent (or more likely, Child-Child) situation.


They're all adults... and it is politics, not 'just politics'.

I for one support what they're doing.  They're doing what they think is right.

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Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2010, 06:34:14 PM »
Transactionally, it's a case of 'Now we've got you...' (unless you do what we want, we're blocking these bills.)  It's as if they have a winning poker hand, and are now more interested in how much they can wring out of the other party than they are in the purpose of the bills in question.

Offline Kaizen

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2010, 06:43:18 PM »
The article was all about the bills.  The bills they wanted to focus on instead of the bills the other party wanted.

And yes, it is a case of 'now we got you'.  They want to get rid of the policies that conflict with their values and the values of those that voted them into office.  The other party is trying to pass as many bills as they can while they still have the upper hand.  I really don't see a problem with what the GOP is doing.

Offline TriesteTopic starter

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Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2010, 06:45:50 PM »


They're all adults... and it is politics, not 'just politics'.

I for one support what they're doing.  They're doing what they think is right.

No, they're not.

They're protecting their campaign investors, or giving their quid pro quo. I know it's not statistical data, but every single person I've spoken to - including professors making quite a bit more than 250k a year - is against extending tax cuts for those above that benchmark. We can't afford it. We cannot afford it. And that's what this is about. That's the only goddamn sticking point. Everyone agrees that people below the 250k mark should get an extension (honestly, I'd probably drop the benchmark to 100k, myself, but whatevs).

Not to mention the points that Oniya made about parent-child interaction (at best).

They want to get rid of the policies that conflict with their values and the values of those that voted them into office.

This is naive.

Offline Kaizen

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2010, 06:57:44 PM »
No, they're not.
This is cynical.

They're protecting their campaign investors, or giving their quid pro quo.

Isn't every politician guilty of that? 

I think what the GOP is doing is fair play.


 

Offline TriesteTopic starter

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Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2010, 07:04:21 PM »
Feel free to make some actual points, appropriate for P&R (which is a debate forum) and I'll be happy to discuss them. :)

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Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2010, 07:09:47 PM »
Just because something is 'the way it's always been done' doesn't make it right or constructive.  The problem is that both sides have gotten to the point where they consider 'compromise' to be a dirty word, and tactics as shown in the article are the norm.  Politicians aren't debating and discussing, they're mudslinging and stonewalling.  Saying 'oh, but the other side does it too' is playground politics.  They get the thrill of having pulled one over on the other side and in the end, the work that we, the voting public, have hired them to do - doesn't get done.

Offline Kaizen

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2010, 07:28:03 PM »
My point:

They were voted into office to do exactly what they are doing in that article.  Block the Democrats from creating any more garbage.   



Offline Brandon

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2010, 07:46:53 PM »
Regarding the tax cuts. this really should have been taken care of months ago. Every politician has known this was coming for years and to not have come to a decision well before they ran out is IMO irresponsible. If the democrats wanted it to run out then they should have been upfront about it and explained why. I dont blame the republicans for doing this either, the tax cuts are a very big issue and need to be resolved yesterday, not tomorrow, and not a week from now. This way they can let everyone know they are trying to tackle this issue and hopefully get the opposing sides to talk faster


Offline Will

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2010, 08:08:52 PM »
My point:

They were voted into office to do exactly what they are doing in that article.  Block the Democrats from creating any more garbage.

So, nothing about this seems immature to you in the least?

Offline Remiel

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2010, 08:16:00 PM »
I consider myself to be a moderate conservative, and I cannot in good conscience defend this.  Believe me, I've tried, but I simply cannot.  It's basically saying, "unless you let us win, we're going to take our ball and go home."  It's bad sportsmanship, and frankly, I believe it will ultimately hurt America.  At this juncture in history, we need more bipartisanship and less polarization politics, not the other way around.

Unfortunately, Kaizen does have a point.  It is what the Republicans were elected to do, and it's probably going to be politically efficacious.  The Democrats will probably ultimately cave out of sheer frustration and desperation, which will only serve to reward and reinforce the strategy.

It's sad, and disgusting, but the GOP knows what it's doing.

Offline Will

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2010, 08:28:32 PM »
Unfortunately, Kaizen does have a point.  It is what the Republicans were elected to do, and it's probably going to be politically efficacious.  The Democrats will probably ultimately cave out of sheer frustration and desperation, which will only serve to reward and reinforce the strategy.

It's sad, and disgusting, but the GOP knows what it's doing.

Yes, because a large portion of the country has been duped into this mentality where they treat politics like a spectator sport, and root for their party like it's a home team.  It's ridiculous.  This is not a game, where one side "wins;" these people have the ability to direct our country, and the obligation to do so in the way that best benefits us as a whole.  Not in the way that benefits the corporations that bought them, not in the way that most benefits the party apparatus that empowers them, and ESPECIALLY not in the way that the ignorant, radical-enabling morons glued to Fox News and MSNBC think they should. 

We don't elect these people as extensions of our will; at least, that's not my understanding of it.  We elect them in the hopes that they're qualified and responsible enough to make the right decisions, regardless of what "The American People" want.

Offline Kaizen

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2010, 08:35:12 PM »
We don't elect these people as extensions of our will; at least, that's not my understanding of it.  We elect them in the hopes that they're qualified and responsible enough to make the right decisions, regardless of what "The American People" want.

Am I reading this right?  Are you saying that Americans don't know what they want and they need someone else to tell them what is right?

Please tell me that's not what you mean.


Offline Will

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2010, 08:39:08 PM »
I mean the average uninformed voter is easily swept up in rhetoric and/or lied to.  It would be nice to think that our politicians are better than that, and can make the right decision regardless.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 08:41:03 PM by Will »

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Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2010, 08:42:29 PM »
The average American is interested in the space that immediately affects them - and I say this as a fairly average American.  If they aren't struggling to afford health care, they don't care about those who are.  If their kids are already through college, they don't care about student loans.  If that bailout of GM doesn't bring them a new job (despite working in a completely different field), then they don't want it. The guy next door to us doesn't have kids, and complains about having to pay school district taxes.

A responsible politician has to sort through all the things that their constituents want and don't want; and all the things that are going to benefit their constituents long-term and short term; and all the things that are going to be a detriment to their constituents long-term and short-term.  Some of those things are going to be in multiple lists:  A bill could benefit the constituents long-term, at the expense of a short-term detriment, and the constituents (seeing the short term) might not want it.  Similarly, a bill could be a long-term detriment, a short-term benefit, and be outrageously popular.

Offline Kaizen

Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2010, 08:50:42 PM »
Saying the 'average uninformed voter' is easily swept up and lied to hurts your argument just as equally as it hurts mine, possibly more. 

Counterpoint - Obama drew out more young and first time voters than any other politician ever.  The young and naive voters, the most gullable, the inexperienced, the ones caught up in the popularity of voting for Obama.  Now that those voters, the same ones that put Obama into office, now have a better handle on what's really going on and they switch their vote to bring in conservatives, all of the sudden they're morons?

« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 08:52:34 PM by Kaizen »

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Re: "GOP" needs to be changed to "OP": Obstructionist Party
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2010, 08:56:37 PM »
I mean the average uninformed voter is easily swept up in rhetoric and/or lied to.  It would be nice to think that our politicians are better than that, and can make the right decision regardless.

It would be nice.  Problem is that Washington and the governmental system is working largely on a 'you scratch my back, I scratch yours' mentality, as well as the fact that there a zillion (Not really, but it does seem like a lot) special interest groups all screaming out there about how they need equality for whatever people they're representing, or tax cuts so that their industry doesn't suffer.  Especially when the truth is that the thing desired is a fraud. 


And Will, remember, those politicians?  Human beings, just like you and me.