Epic Pathfinder experiment

[WyzardWhately]

nice to see you again WyzardWhately

Oh, man, I owe you a PM, don't I.

Thanks for the slot.  I'll probably put together a Wizard or Sorcerer, because I have an actual kink for magic. 

[avorae]

Ok I have settled on a race now so will throw the character together tomorrow seeing as I am off.

[WyzardWhately]

They do in a sense but it is not called level Adjustment anymore. It is the CR of the creature now.

So...could I just outright play a Pit Fiend or Balor?  Because I've always wanted to do that.

I figure I'd have enough starting treasure to get a ring or amulet of some kind that would let him disguise himself as a normal human, and after that I wouldn't worry too much because he'd already be awesome.

Addendum: If we have item creation abilities, can we have made our own magic items in order to save money on them?

[Zaer Darkwail]

I myself was thinking to play as celestial or infernal/demonic bloodlined sorcerer. depending overal consensus of alignment present. Plain 20 levels as Pathfinder sorcerer anyway.

I assume we use Pathfinder char creation rules and core classes etc. But we can convert any 3.5 DnD PrC's or extra core classes (like Hexblade) into Pathfinder format?

[Callie Del Noire]

Wouldn't a lot of evil folk be a more serious game than humor like was initially proposed?

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, evil game can be humorous also. But so far what I have seen we have Ur-Priest (evil aligned) in party with two good aligned people.

I do not mind mixed alignment game (makes things more fun and interesting when there is little conflict) but it can also produce painful drama if someone goes and do make a paladin characther which is 'lawful stupid'.

If people can roleplay without drama in mixed alignment party and not do anything to strongly provoke either side (chaos vs law or evil vs good) then I could play then a evil aligned sorcerror.

[ulthakptah]

Wouldn't a lot of evil folk be a more serious game than humor like was initially proposed?

If your read the "Looking for group" comic you would know that Richard is the most evil and humorous character in that story. Proving that evil characters are hilarious.

but yeah I agree with Zaer about the whole mixed alignment party thing, and if we role-play nice with each other we should be fine.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Yeah, Richard is good example of 'super evil but hillarious' characther. Also Black Mage from 8-Bit theater comic. Also the psycho halfling from OotS comic.

So it seems any good 'humorous' party needs at least one evil characther.

[Kate]

i am definately keen on playing a demonic character.

I think it would be very interesting to have other players that are demonic with simular goals :)

How often can we huh ?

Sooo much fun. Perhaps two groups "goody goody two shoes" and "not so good" ?

[Zaer Darkwail]

Consider we got 8 players so far it could help ease the burden and conflict to have two groups; one group with goody two shoes and other side with more villanous attitudes.

[Kate]

hey all wondering if any could help me out with this one

I was thinking of playing a succubus which has a level adjustment of 6 as well as hit dice of 8. I read ECL = Adjustment plus hitdice plus character levels.
... So does this mean if i want to play a succubus "at level 20"
i would be 20 - 6 -8 = level 6 in a particular class ? And if we are allowed 2 level adjustments for "free", level 8 ?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus

Level 20 succubus sorceress that is really effectively a level 6 (or 8)
seems a pretty steep condition.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I think -2 LA is taken with succubus and so you would gain 8 class levels. But I recommend use Pathfinder succubus which haves different stats and abilities (as this is Pathfinder game basically with some stuff taken from 3.5 DnD). What I take from Pathfinder succubus it likely has same HD+LA range as in 3.5 DnD.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/succubus

[Kate]

20 - CR 7 = 13

but get extra three due to (due to http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monsters-as-pcs)

(This is to model how CR levels means less at high levels (where for normal
classes things become more additive and more things get more powerful to match level)

= 16th level sorceress.

OR

= 16th + 2 (if get 2 "level adjustments" for free) = 18th level sorceress

In short can the dm make a decision ?

IF i start off with the stats of

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/demon.html#demon-succubus

... how many sorceress levels could I have such that I am in total
as powerful as someone who is a level 20 of a normal class

[Zaer Darkwail]

Take note that you have outsider HD levels but do you intend 'replace' the outsider HD levels with class levels?

[Kate]

i couldnt find one stripped down that doesnt (ie what powers are inherit to the race vs something that appears at later paragon levels etc... Im a little lost.

Stats as a monster is the only thing i have found "as a playable race", i dont know what starting powers etc thati have

[Chloe Milev]

Okay, lots of catching up.

Eberron-ish world?

What do people think?  Lightning rail and airships?  Gnome mecha gestalts ("and I'll form the head!")?

So...could I just outright play a Pit Fiend or Balor?  Because I've always wanted to do that.

Pathfinder's ruling on monster PC's (pg 313-314) is that their CR equals their level, then you add character levels from there.  Which surprised me at first.  Their example uses a minotaur as a 4th level character, though he has 6 HD and a LA of +2 according to 3.5's Monster Manual.  But Pathfinder makes the point that monster HD and abilities are less important at higher levels.

So for making a Balor:  Savage species treats a Hamatula (barbed devil) as level 14, Imp as level 7, Kyton (chain devil) as 14, Succubus as 12, and a Vrock as 16.  It would seem for Pathfinder, they would be:
Hamatula   11
Imp            2
Kyton         6
Succubus   7
Vrock         9

Let's see here.  At first I thought, "Imp character with 18 levels of rogue?  Would there be any reason to pick an elf instead?"  Maybe not, but while they have fast healing 2, DR 5, immunity to fire, resist 10 acid/cold, flight, and invisibility at will, a level 20 rogue can get DR armor, rings/wands of protection from energy, a winged cloak, a ring of invisibility.  And anything with magic at this level will have see invisibility, if not constant true seeing.  *Shrug*

I'm not sure about just letting you have a CR 20 Balor.  Let's see, to compare:  Sorcerer 9, Fighter 1, Eldtritch knight 10; base attack 15, caster level 20 (Practiced Spellcaster); Str 16+2 abyssal sorcerer+6 item = 24, Cha 16+2 human+5 levels+5 inherent+6 item = 34; four level 9 spells/day.

If we have item creation abilities, can we have made our own magic items in order to save money on them?

Craft feats at character creation, hmmm...  If I don't allow it, crafting feats are practically trash.  If I let you make everything, you double your equipment value compared to non-magic PCs.  Would it be fair to say you find most of your equipment over your adventuring career, but 1/4 of your equipment budget you can craft?  (i.e. you have 880,000 budget, but crafting a third of it makes it worth 1,320,000)

I assume we use Pathfinder char creation rules and core classes etc. But we can convert any 3.5 DnD PrC's or extra core classes (like Hexblade) into Pathfinder format?

Yes, we will use Pathfinder rules, but for a 3.5 prestige class, you would adjust the skill requirements:  instead of 8 ranks, it requires 5.  Instead of Spot and Listen, use Perception.  Etc.

Wouldn't a lot of evil folk be a more serious game than humor like was initially proposed?

I'm okay with a mixed alignment group if everyone can find a reason to work together.  I think I'd like to keep it one group, if it's not too cumbersome.  Then I (or Zaer and I since we may work together on this) would only have to concentrate on one group, and there's the interesting dynamics of all the classes, races, and alignments working together.  Like everyone said, Richard (Dick), Belkar, Black Mage, they're all very evil, but are also comic relief.  And their destructive natures are sometimes aimed by the good party members.  Like a Malconvoker summoning demons to fight evil, only the cleric is aiming the infernal sorcerer at the more pressing evil.

how many sorceress levels could I have such that I am in total
as powerful as someone who is a level 20 of a normal class

Yeah, the succubus sorceress.  Hmm, CR 7 + 13 levels is the straightest way.  I may have to adjust the "free +2 LA" thing, since 3.5 and Pathfinder are a little different.  Pathfinder seems to have that free LA built-in.

Succubus, level 13 sorceress:  257 HP, DR, immune to electricity/fire, resist 10 acid/cold, SR 31 (10+HD?), flight, charm monster, greater teleport, dominate person, Cha 41, energy drain grapple; flaming claws, +4 Str; five level 6 spells; cloak of Cha +6, belt of Con +6

Level 20 human Infernal Sorcerer:  Str 10, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 32; 189 hp; charm +2 DC, corrupting touch, immunity to fire and poison, resist 10 acid/cold, 20d6 hellfire, flight, see in darkness; seven level 9 spells; cloak of Cha +6, belt of Con +6

They're getting even, with the human winning with straight magic.  The succubus already has good ability scores, and with extra levels, +5 inherent bonus, and +6 item, her Cha gets crazy high.  But that only gives her slightly more spells, and only at level 6.  While their DCs are four higher than the human, the human has level 9 spells, which would be only 1 lower DC.

So it's looking like using CR as total level can work, depending on the monster.  I think Balors and Pit Fiends are a little out of this, since at CR 20, they haven't had enough room for their special abilities to mellow out like a minotaur or even succubus.  Lesser demons/devils would probably work better.

Edit:  Maybe a monster's ability scores should be generated like a PC?  Everything is at 10, with 20 points to spend.  Maybe a succubus has -2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha (two pluses and a minus, like a humanoid race)?  Does that sound more balancing?

[avorae]

I am fine with the creatures getting there normal stas boost honestly. After all they make up for it with the level lose anyway. Speaking of which how wouyld the half celestial work if i chose it at level one?

[Zaer Darkwail]

I think succubus has more than +2 to charisma. At least +8 or something explain why base monster has such high charisma. But if want balance stats related to monsters.....then we could just use 3.5 monster manual rule how find them. Just add -10 to all monsters stats and then round fractions down. That way you get the 'stat boost' what monster added to normal stats (minus 4th and 8th etc level stat boosts).

[Chloe Milev]

Hmm, the higher stats of monsters versus their lower spellcasting ability.  That might work out.  Let's see, a unique succubus starting with stats at 10, with 20 points, and Str +2, Dex +6, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +4, Cha +16?  You could get 18 Cha + 16 race + 5 inherent + 5 levels + 6 enhancement = 50.  Plus four level 6 spells, DCs +20.  That's pretty awesome, but balanced with lower-level spells.  I guess that could work.

[Kate]

sounds good to me :)

[Zaer Darkwail]

Sounds fine to me also. Balancing factor is that non-monster chars know just higher level spells which can trump down lower level spells of succubus (example ward spells and such).

[Kate]

im not up on the rules as much as others here.

I think that all the thoughts seem to be sensible as far as balancing power goes, keeping people happy.

Would any help me create a character sheet for my succubus sorceress ?

i would do the background / pic and some item choices but those with an interest could flesh out the mechanics ?

My plan would be a charm-mind-dominating-focused creature.

[Kate]

my plan isnt to be the most powerful member in the party,
more a specailist one that is manipulative - which would be highly enjoyable to role play

[Zaer Darkwail]

Umh, my char Gabriel who is pure human infernal sorcerer is already pretty much focusing 'mind powers' kinda sorcery (even infernal sorcery supports that). No doubt succubus sorcerer is demonic sorcerer and that focuses/supports summoning dozen of demonic/fiendish creatures (give half sorc level as DR/good example and later features allow summon extra fiend of same type what you summoned).

But for items and reference here is my charsheet; http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=244575

I will be a co-GM in this game with Chloe's allowance but I will control own char in the party. Also you can still be manipulator or pick powers which focus trickery. Example you could use summoned minions manipulate people with high social skill checks and use illussions also trick people and such.

[Kate]

oh btw chloe is right - dont get craft creation feats ! with the amount of starting cash we are being granted we can commission anything we want.

(if its weird you would need her approval anyway to buy to make)
and if you still want more ? great => Gives us a reason to get some treasure ! :)

(btw can i also but a tome of charisma (leadership and influence?) or is that effectively the inherit bonus or is inherit bonus different again but tomes are banned starting items ?