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Author Topic: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran  (Read 6184 times)

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Offline Will

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #75 on: September 10, 2010, 11:02:50 PM »
Lots of boards do have rules against inflammatory language.  Lots of boards also have power-crazed, nutbag admins with a chubby for having things their way.  It's not that different a situation when you scale up to nations.

Start taking away rights, and you're looking at the proverbial "slippery slope."  Start telling newspapers what they can and can't print, telling news stations what they can and can't say, and you're talking about a dangerous precedent.  Are there situations where our rights have to be set aside for our own safety?  Maybe.  That's a debate for another thread.  But even if you agree with that principle (Patriot Act et al), surely you don't think this is a situation that warrants it?  This is so minor. : /

I refuse to give up any of my rights because some guy wants to burn some books.  I do not believe this has made an appreciable difference in the difficulty of our task in Iraq, even with the demonstrations, so the idea that we need to muzzle him (and in the process, muzzle ourselves) is a tough sell.

Offline Imogen

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2010, 05:06:07 AM »
The man probably enjoys his few weeks of fame. Soon enough, he and his books will have been forgotten.

I'm not surprised at people shouting outrage in the streets. There will always be fanatics glad to show their devotion for a cause, if not this, then something else.

In the meantime, I am not a fan of media hyping this kind of thing. It feeds people's fears and hatred, but I wouldn't go as far as silencing them. That, in my opinion, would be giving those idiots far more credit than they deserve. Just let it die out, give it time and even the most ardent debater will get bored and move to another topic.

Offline Jaybee

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2010, 05:14:03 AM »
 
Lots of boards do have rules against inflammatory language.  Lots of boards also have power-crazed, nutbag admins with a chubby for having things their way.  It's not that different a situation when you scale up to nations.

Agree utterly, wholeheartedly and completely with the tawdry, inconsistent state of board moderation across the web.  So much for freedom of expression.  I (must) reserve my choicest thoughts for publication on my own blog, where I know they won't be censored by some oversensitive housewife with too much time on her hands, and who's been given the roles of judge, jury and executioner over my user account. 
Quote
I will disagree somewhat though with the scaling, the freedom of expression is pretty well enshrined in the First world and India, which consist of about 1/3rd of the world's population.  I'd be happy if 1/30th of the internet's board moderaters practiced the same self-restraint with censorship that

Start taking away rights, and you're looking at the proverbial "slippery slope."  Start telling newspapers what they can and can't print, telling news stations what they can and can't say, and you're talking about a dangerous precedent.  Are there situations where our rights have to be set aside for our own safety?  Maybe.  That's a debate for another thread.  But even if you agree with that principle (Patriot Act et al), surely you don't think this is a situation that warrants it?  This is so minor. : /

I refuse to give up any of my rights because some guy wants to burn some books. 

(Claps wildly)

Offline Noelle

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2010, 12:04:26 PM »
What would I be giving up?  No more news casts or articles about the WBC.  No more news stories or articles about this Quran burning idiot.  No more political ads that are nothing but mud slinging.  No more extremist idiots of any kind seeking their fifteen minutes of fame.  Wow... what a sacrifice!

All I'm proposing is anti-inflammatory rules applied to the media such as are on this very forum.  On this forum I'm not allowed to say that all black people are retarded (not my opinion; only an example) despite having freedom of speech.  But the news is allowed to cover and sensationalize a fricken moron spouting off all kinds of crap about Muslims being evil, therefore causing all kinds of problems?


Blocking only the speech you don't like is quite possibly the most destructive thing you could do in terms of media, press, just freedom of speech in general. It's ridiculous to say "everybody has the freedom of expression...except when I don't like it/it's unpopular/it sounds dumb". It's not freedom then, it's just dictating your opinion to others...and then what happens when others don't like what you have to say? What stops anybody else from removing your right to voice your opinion if they think what you're saying isn't worth being heard?

Offline Oniya

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Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #79 on: September 11, 2010, 02:28:49 PM »
There are circumstances where 'freedom of speech' is not applicable - such as the famous example of yelling 'Fire' in a crowded theater.  If you are inciting violence or your words could cause physical harm to people, then you're not going to be able to claim First Amendment protection.

Offline Will

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #80 on: September 11, 2010, 02:31:09 PM »
And I don't honestly believe this is going to cause any harm to people that wouldn't have come anyway.

Offline TheLovelyMaid

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2010, 04:00:11 PM »
There is an Christian organization that is giving away two Quarans per each one he sets fire to. 

I can't believe anyone would want to give energy to hatred...especially on this day.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #82 on: September 11, 2010, 05:13:44 PM »

I know freedom of speech is generally a good thing, but I'm starting to think that there should be laws against flaming like there are on forums; like you can't air it in the media if it's going to cause unwanted drama. 


Sorry as much as I dislike what this guy wanted to do, what the WBC said/does and the rest; I cannot condone the curtailing of their right to open their mouth and how how blatantly stupid they are. I don't like them. I don't agree with them. In the case of the folks from the WBC, I suspect that the pastor is truly mentally ill.

However, you can't legislate stupidity and regulating the right of speech will only come back to bite you in the ass.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #83 on: September 11, 2010, 06:11:56 PM »
There is an Christian organization that is giving away two Quarans per each one he sets fire to. 

I can't believe anyone would want to give energy to hatred...especially on this day.

Is that as a way of countering him, or a way of supporting him?  I'm hoping that it's the former.

Offline TheLovelyMaid

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #84 on: September 11, 2010, 06:23:33 PM »
Is that as a way of countering him, or a way of supporting him?  I'm hoping that it's the former.

Counterin...sorry if I made that unclear.  Anyway, Rev. Jones called off his plans to burn copies of the Quran.
 
-----

" 'The highest honor we can pay those we lost, indeed our greatest weapon in this ongoing war, is to do what our adversaries fear the most," the president said. "To stay true to who we are, as Americans; to renew our sense of common purpose; to say that we define the character of our country, and we will not let the acts of some small band of murderers who slaughter the innocent and cower in caves distort who we are.'

Obama did not mention the New York City mosque, or the Florida pastor, but his message was clear. 'We champion the rights of every American, including the right to worship as one chooses as service members and civilians from many faiths do just steps from here, at the very spot where the terrorists struck this building,' he said. The Pentagon houses a chapel where people of different religions can pray."

--yahoo news. lovely speech this morning.

Offline sesshomaruartist

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2010, 05:37:04 AM »
Hmm I thought my insight resolved this?

Offline Jaybee

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2010, 07:43:14 AM »
There are circumstances where 'freedom of speech' is not applicable - such as the famous example of yelling 'Fire' in a crowded theater.  If you are inciting violence or your words could cause physical harm to people, then you're not going to be able to claim First Amendment protection.

As a pure defence, no, but the fact that you have a right to speak/write the truth overrides and gets the case thrown out before it hits court. And proving that speech has caused physical harm is going to be a very shaky chain of evidence in most (legal) cases.  Imagine trying to put Jones on trial for "causing" the deaths of those 3 protestors in Afghanistan.  Freedom to speek/express oneself freely (within common-sense) will ALWAYS be looked upon more favourably, by the law, than the freedom from speech/expression.  Whenever the law must reprimand misuse (as opposed to abuse) of expression, it MUST do so very, very softly, lest it tread on the far more sacred freedom to express.  And rightly so.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 07:49:53 AM by Jaybee »

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Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2010, 06:37:18 AM »
Voltaire put it very well: 

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." 

These are words I've strongly believed in for a very long time.  Freedom of speech in the US has worked organically to illustrate Voltaire's point quite nicely. 

Fifty people exercised their right too speak out against the Koran. 

Fifty Million + people exercised their right too tell the first fifty people that they were being stupid and rude. 

I haven't seen such a fine assertion of human decency in some time. 

Offline Cryptic Wanderer

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #88 on: October 13, 2010, 09:37:12 PM »
Because humans are short sighted and believe their own excuses.

Could not have said it any better myself, religion is a plague.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 09:38:19 PM by Cryptic Wanderer »

Offline Jude

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #89 on: October 13, 2010, 10:10:52 PM »
Plagues don't typically inspire people to perform acts of selfless charity.  Religious faith can inspire people to do all sorts of things, good or bad.  If you think the world would be better without religion, I have to express skepticism.  Violence can be committed in the name of nearly any belief that is taken too strongly.  Political ideology and moralistic philosophies can be every bit as dangerous -- one could argue they are also the backbone of every episode of violent religious extremism, not actual religious dogma.

I was watching a documentary on the 9/11 hijackers a few days ago with a journalist who actually has been around the world interviewing terrorists and their families firsthand.  A pattern quickly formed:  the men who attacked the World Trade Center were depressed because their personal ambitions that were actually healthy were ruined by the changing political tides of Middle Eastern instability.  They felt as if they had no future, which made it quite easy to convince them to become martyrs.

There's always an undercurrent of political ideology behind this sorta stuff -- religion is unfairly saddled with all of the blame.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 10:14:03 PM by Jude »

Offline mystictiger

Re: Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2010, 05:33:37 AM »
I'm with Popper on this one:
Quote
Although Popper was an advocate of toleration, he realized that even a tolerant person cannot always accept another's intolerance. For, if tolerance allowed intolerance to succeed completely, tolerance itself would be threatened. In The Open Society and Its Enemies: The Spell of Plato, he argued that:
 Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.
 The utterence of intolerant philosophies should not always be suppressed, "as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion." However,
 we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive , and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.
 Furthermore, in support of human rights legislation in the second half of the 20th century, he stated:
 We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal

There's simply a time that the idea of Freedom of Speech is more important than one individuals exercise of it. I think, for example, of the so-called Media cases before the Rwanda warcrimes tribunal - various media outlets and journalists were found guilty. This charming chap used his radio show to read out lists of people that should be killed.