That's actually a negative proof fallacy/argument from ignorance in claiming that it's impossible to prove me wrong simply because I don't take for granted free will. You'll find I'm not the only person who doesn't in the realm of philosophy and science. The whole "look around you it's obvious" argument hasn't worked in formal logic since the time of Euclid.
The entire free will argument is a Distraction fallacy, Im not sure which one but attempts to move the conversation to another direction rather then keeping with the same idea. By saying I have to prove free will your throwing up a smoke screen to get away from the points I had already listed and proven for what we do know of the human mind and how it deals with spirituality (or lack there of).
Finally if you take a look around you you will see free will in action all it takes is some rudementory observation
Isn't choosing to believe in a religion deciding if someone is telling the truth or not? You're contradicting yourself here.I agree you have to take into account the effect your words will have on other people and choose your battles, and there are some people whose religious viewpoints I think it would be immoral to criticize (the dying for example). It's all situational and I'm not saying that someone who walks around screaming "God doesn't exist" is going to be particularly well-received by me, for example I dislike Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins intensely for their antagonistic style of atheism.
Im not contradicting myself at all. As I said beliefs are already in place and as a person becomes an adult and gains their freedom if they dont believe what the church says they stop practicing/worshiping if they do believe they continue. That core belief is not a choice, it never was a choice, it can never be a choice. You are purposly trying to mix words into saying a person has to choose their beliefs and by extension religion but thats not the case. The belief was never a choice which means in the case of people looking for new spiritual guidance they watch for it (it being a religious culture that matches the persons beliefs) till they find it or it finds them. At that time they are already "one of them"
Determining whether a person, group, or organization is lying or telling the truth isnt the same thing is fundemental beliefs in the human soul. This is not that hard to understand
But if you're not prepared to be challenged, to face opposing viewpoints, and to be open about the potential that you are wrong about your preconceived beliefs, then you shouldn't be debating or discussing issues in the first place. If hearing people who vehemently disagree with your worldview causes you great cognitive dissonance then you can't have a rational debate without interjecting emotion, which is the enemy of civil discourse.
From my point of view, you are the one whos adding emotional attachment in your vehement inability to accept anything that has not been "proven" by the scientific community. Even with simple things like free will that just take some rudimentory observation to recognize. You want to point out flaws in logic but you dont seem to want to use logic yourself. You seem to have to be told, by science, that its alright to believe in something and thats just as dangerous as believing everything that a religion has to say. Thats what I see from where Im sitting
Now Im not going to lie, I do have some emotional attatchment. Being catholic is part of who I am, I was never given a choice in that just like I was never given a choice in being caucasian, being male, or being heterosexual. So yes, I think to critisize ones faith is akin to critisizing ones gender. Now dont get me wrong, to critisize an individual religious order and the things they do is fine but around here critisism tends to quickly turns from critisism to bashing and then bashing to Theocism. I can point out several threads where this has happened and I began to stand up against the Theocism because of emotion. I was frustrated, angry, hurt at all the unfairness but I also wanted to make Elliquiy a better place. I think Veks said it far better then I ever could
"If you truly want to see those organizations you support thrive, you will support healthy processes within them, and discourage bad ones. "
I wholeheartedly agree with that statment and in part, its why Ive been doing this as I see bashing of anything or anyone, as well as Theocism as bad (actually I see those things as evil but those words are pretty much synonomous with each other). Yes I have emotional attachment to the fight but humans are nothing if not emotional creatures. I try so seperate emotion from debate although Im not always successful but even then it doesnt stop me from considering the other side.
If that person follows you with the viewpoint and refuses to respect your desire not to hear it by invading your personal space after you've withdrawn from the conversation, that's harassment and it's wrong, but if you proudly proclaim your beliefs and they counter that's just the nature of the free exchange of ideas.
I dont know how to respond to this without being a smartass so I can only say: Well duh
Problem is though, free speech on Elliquiy doesnt allow me to say something like (I dont believe this what so ever so dont send your hate PMs to me) "All gay men are just trying to infect people with HIV/AIDS". So why do we allow the same to be said of religion, another aspect of a persons life that is not a choice? I think its because, despite conclusive proof Ive given, people are unable or unwilling to recognize it as such. I think its another hate fueled response that I can never convince a person to, just like I cant convince a KKK member that African americans are no different then I am. That doesnt stop me from trying, just like the threat of excommunication didnt stop me from trying to get the catholic church to accept or at least tolerate homosexuals
As a somewhat different, but important topic I think I need to point out that there tends to be this dogpile/attack dog mechanic around here and especially in these religion threads and I dont appreciate it. Ive never given into peer pressure in my entire life and Im not going to start now.