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Author Topic: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?  (Read 3209 times)

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Offline mystictiger

Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2010, 02:54:33 AM »
Drinking too much water will kill you. Just as eating too many apples will (trace amounts of cyanide in the seeds), or eating too many carrots (Vitamin A, in large enough amounts can become toxic). There is nothing that you can consume in sufficiently large amounts that won't be toxic. The cholesterol problem is more to do with modern diets, lifestyles, and cooking methods, not the meat itself.

Our evolutionary history is such that we have:

Forward binocular vision. Not like a herbivore
A mixture of sharp biting and blunt chewing teeth. Not like a herbivore.
An inability to digest cellulose. Not like a herbivore.
One stomach. Not like a herbivore.

We aren't carnivores in that we need to subsist on a variety of both plants and animals (and ideally fish too). Sure, you can subsist on just vegetables alone, but I'm not going to argue with millions of years of speciation, evolution, and adaption. I quite like hamburgers.

Offline Farmboy

Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2010, 08:51:14 AM »
I really think it is wrong of us to divert this thread into "argue with Aislin about his beliefs". I am just one person just like you and I strongly feel this is cruelty. Thank you for allowing me to have an opinion that differs from yours.

Offline Trieste

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Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2010, 09:06:57 AM »
Can both of you please take this to PM?

Offline Stan'Topic starter

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Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2010, 10:33:20 AM »
Well if a woman is gonna be stupid enough to do something like drink as much water as she could, then hell bloody mend her.

But yeah.  Thread's probably over.

Offline Farmboy

Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2010, 10:59:14 AM »
People keep veering off to unrelated topics. I regret that I mentioned my personal ethical decisions about food.

I believe this is cruelty.

I happened to mention to Paladin, as well as to others who stated that humans are at the top of the food chain and entitled to kill any animal for any reason, several of what I thought were cogent points:

1. That we waste crop land on luxuries when we could be producing enough food for everyone.
2. That human beings are adaptable and that eating meat was once necessary but is not necessary any longer.
3. That people cherry-pick their science to support their emotional perpectives.

I guess I diverted the thread. Well, I never meant to. I wish I could undo that.

But in direct relation to the news article posted at the top of this thread, I stated and I will say it again:

I do not believe one shred of scientific data has been gathered from this that could not be gathered by caring for the actual injured soldiers! Here their lives have been ruined in an attempt to change a sociopathic part of the world into some kind of coexistence with the rest of us, and all the thanks they get is some bumper stickers. It's terribly wrong. In America, we who are liberal veterans are very, very upset about the short shrift our vets are getting. All this flag waving does not correct the problem. We need to take care of them, period! Flags and bumper stickers do not address the real problems.

Look, it says they are testing body armor. But the body armor goes to the mercenaries first, the army soldiers second, and the national guard soldiers third. Blowing up pigs will not change this.

Finally, I am feel we should be working on evolving beyond war. Presenting this childish perversion of blowing up animals as some form of patriotism is offensive to me. I suggest that these scientist get their asses into the hospitals where the real wounds are!!!

Offline Stan'Topic starter

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Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2010, 11:25:11 AM »
Who would be torn to shreds by bullets in a war anyway and other than that don't do anything useful.

Umm... excuse me?  You're saying that women and men that die for you, don't do anything useful?

Offline Trieste

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Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2010, 11:36:12 AM »
But in direct relation to the news article posted at the top of this thread, I stated and I will say it again:

I do not believe one shred of scientific data has been gathered from this that could not be gathered by caring for the actual injured soldiers! Here their lives have been ruined in an attempt to change a sociopathic part of the world into some kind of coexistence with the rest of us, and all the thanks they get is some bumper stickers. It's terribly wrong. In America, we who are liberal veterans are very, very upset about the short shrift our vets are getting. All this flag waving does not correct the problem. We need to take care of them, period! Flags and bumper stickers do not address the real problems.

Look, it says they are testing body armor. But the body armor goes to the mercenaries first, the army soldiers second, and the national guard soldiers third. Blowing up pigs will not change this.

Finally, I am feel we should be working on evolving beyond war. Presenting this childish perversion of blowing up animals as some form of patriotism is offensive to me. I suggest that these scientist get their asses into the hospitals where the real wounds are!!!

I'm not sure.

Of course, the pigs are the centerpiece of the article, and they get talked about a lot, but I noticed the blurb at the bottom of the article:

Government figures show more than 50,000 animals, including sheep, monkeys and cattle, have been subject to experiments at Porton Down in the past four years, including ones using chemical and biological weapons such as Anthrax and nerve gas.

I do think we need better vet's services. The state of our VA hospitals in this country is shameful. However, you don't study a soldier given anthrax; you treat it. You don't vivisect a soldier exposed to nerve gas. You don't do these things to the dead, especially the honorable dead, because it's considered disrespectful and wrong. So, I think that study and care of the wounds is laudable, but it only goes so far.

Offline mystictiger

Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2010, 11:44:06 AM »
The BBC covered this story some months ago.

The Daily Maily isn't exactly the most reputably or unbiased of newspapers. I'm amazed that it hasn't found a way of saying that:
-Illegal immigrants are involved
-blowing up pigs causes cancer
-not blowing up pigs causes cancer

Offline Paladin

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Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2010, 06:17:45 PM »
Okay - then if we're supposed to drink water, then why do things like this happen.

Because we are supposed to drink it, but there is such thing as drownding in your own fluids. Our body is 75% water and anyone can look up that medical info. Why someone would torture themselves trying not to pee just for a Wii is beyond me.

Offline Serephino

Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2010, 08:53:14 PM »
Yep, too much of anything is bad for you.  Hell, if you hyperventilate you get dizzy from all the oxygen, something you can only live a few minutes without.  People without diabetes can still get sick from too much sugar.  I think I read somewhere where a woman died of a chocolate overdose.

Yes, a person can live without eating meat as long as you get protein from other sources.  I just don't don't want to.  Do I like how slaughterhouses are being run?  No.  Can I change it?  No.


To the topic at hand, I still say there has got to be a better way than this.  If a private citizen were to do such a thing they'd be arrested for animal cruelty, but it's okay for the government to do it?  Talk about your double standard....

Offline Scott

Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2010, 11:58:03 PM »
If I were very cynical, I would say that 119 pigs and 119 soldiers (who would be torn to shreds by bullets in a war anyway and other than that don't do anything useful) don't make a difference.

I can't really say how cynical I am, but I do say that it doesn't really make a difference. As it is I have even more sympathy for the pigs.

You sir, are an ass. 

Offline Neroon

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Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2010, 03:10:07 AM »
*coughs*

That's unnecessary Scott.  Please be civil.

Offline Serephino

Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2010, 11:00:27 AM »
Quote
Friday, May 28 2010
Dolphins are almost as clever as humans - so treat them like people,
say scientists

By Daniel Martin
Last updated at 8:23 AM on 4th January 2010

Dolphins are so intelligent they should be given the same status as
humans, scientists are recommending.

The aquatic mammals are the world's second brightest creatures after
humans - leapfrogging chimpanzees who have been pushed down to third
in the cleverness stakes.

Experts say it is now time for dolphins to be treated as 'non-human
persons' after research showed their brains have many features
associated with high intelligence.

Just like us: A bottlenose dolphin shakes hands

They claim it is cruel to keep such intelligent animals in amusement
parks, or to kill them for food or by accident when fishing. Some
300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises die in this way every year.

A study carried out by Lori Marino, a zoologist at Emory University in
Atlanta, used MRI scans to map the brains of dolphin species and
compare them to primates.

She said: 'Many dolphin brains are larger than our own and second in
mass only to the human brain when corrected for body size.

'The neuroanatomy suggests psychological continuity between humans and
dolphins and has profound implications for the ethics of human-dolphin
interactions. '

Professor Marino found that the cerebral cortex and the neocortex of
bottlenose dolphins were so large that 'the anatomical ratios that
assess cognitive capacity place it second only to the human brain'.

The brain cortex also has the same complicated folds associated with
human intelligence.

Dolphins have long been known for their intelligence. However it had
been believed that chimps - who can attain the intelligence levels of
three-year- old children - were the brighter of the two.

New studies imply that in fact dolphins - especially species such as
the bottlenose - are the more intelligent. They have distinct
personalities, a strong sense of the self and can think about the
future.

They are also 'cultural' animals, with new types of behaviour being
picked up by one dolphin from another.

In one piece of research, bottlenose dolphins were shown to be able to
recognise themselves in a mirror and use it to inspect various parts
of their bodies.

Captive animals can also learn a rudimentary symbol-based language.

Dolphins' famed intelligence has also made its way into fiction.

In Douglas Adams's story, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy,
dolphins escape from Earth after humans fail to interpret their
warnings that the planet is about to be destroyed.

Professor Marino will present her research at a conference in San
Diego next month.

She will use it to argue that it is morally repugnant to mistreat
dolphins.

Also at the conference will be Thomas White, professor of ethics at
Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, who argues that dolphins
deserve rights.

He said: 'The scientific research suggests that dolphins are "non-
human persons" who qualify for moral understanding as individuals. '

Associated Newspapers Ltd

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Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2010, 05:47:14 AM »
Wow. 

I do hope this research get's serious consideration. 

Think about this.  A good many members of our species deny the personhood of their next door neighbors who speak their language based on the color of their skin, or their gender. 

A good many more members of our species will refuse too consider the person-hood of Homo Sapiens native too foreign countries, or who do not communicate in the same language. 

Obviously, a good many of these people will initially reject this data out of hand, just as a good many of them will tell you that Neil Armstrong broadcast the words, "That's one small step for a man," from White Sands, New Mexico. 

Ultimatum, though, any truth that expands our understanding of personhood is a good thing in my book. 

Offline Lyell

Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2010, 09:06:05 PM »
My question is why is PETA jumping on armor testing, essentially government funded research twords the preservation of soldier's lives? Especially when there's tax dollars being wasted to train, shield and arm people who use said resources we've paid for to shoot non-combat dogs and torture crippled ones?

http://www.coolvideoclips.com/2007/03/23/us-troops-shooting-dogs-for-fun

Priorities, people!

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Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2010, 10:32:01 AM »
I don't see anything wrong with doing this. The pigs are doing more good being killed in this way than being killed to be eaten. How many lives have they saved in this research? A lot more than they would have saved by being made into sausages.

And as was previously stated, the pigs were sedated. They felt nothing. A much gentler way to go than at a slaughter house.

Offline mystictiger

Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2010, 06:25:08 PM »
Quote
To the topic at hand, I still say there has got to be a better way than this.  If a private citizen were to do such a thing they'd be arrested for animal cruelty, but it's okay for the government to do it?  Talk about your double standard....

The same would be true if a private citizen owned a tank. Or an aircraft carrier. Or taxed people.

I found no peer-reviewed publications by Dr Marino since 2002. Her most recent publication is:
"Marino, L. 2002. Convergence of complex cognitive abilities in cetaceans and primates. Brain, Behavior and Evolution 59:21-32."

Quote
Hell, there are scientists that think some species, such as dolphins, are actually smarter than humans.  They just don't have tools and cities because they don't have arms...  My earlier example proves rats can be smart.  They've lived off us humans quite well for hundreds of years, and we can't seem to get rid of them.  There have also been studies that suggest pigs are intelligent.  If nothing else they're clean.  They only go to the bathroom in one corner of their pen.  They roll in mud because they can't sweat and it keeps them cool as well as protecting their skin from sunburn.  It's kind of interesting that such a 'stupid' animal figured that out.

Emphasis added.

I'm not saying that I think the comments she made are groundless or baseless (I'm after all not a neuroscientist. But then neither is she - her PhD and degree were in psychology), but not even she is advocating the 'animals are as intelligent as or more intelligent than humans' line.

The reason why people think that dolphins are smart is because of their brain:body ratio. They're at about 5. Humans are 7-something. As Wiki puts it: "The brain to body mass ratio in dolphins is less than half that of humans: 0.9% versus 2.1%. This comparison appears more favorable if the large amount of blubber (15-20% of mass) that dolphins require for insulation is left out. Humans have the highest brain-to-body ratio but there is debate whether dolphins or the treeshrew have the highest non-human mammal brain-to-body ratio."

What was interesting is that dolphins seem to be able to demonstrate some degree of comprehension of numbers. But having said that, the same researcher suggested that this might just be mimicry.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/sep05/marine.aspx

It all comes down to how you measure intelligence. I would argue that problem-solving and self-awareness are what make something intelligent. "Brain and Intelligence in Vertebrates" (MacPhail, I think?) suggests that intelligence is in fact better described as learning from experience, and in this regard, dolphins are less intelligent than ferrets.

The more compelling evidence of Bottlenose Dolphin intelligence is:
-Gay-rape as a part of social dominance
-Infanticide
-Killing porpoises for pleasure.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 06:35:30 PM by mystictiger »

Offline Cythieus

Re: 119 Pigs or 119 Soldiers?
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2010, 08:15:27 AM »
Price of Bacon better not go up...with them wasting it all.