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Author Topic: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin  (Read 2022 times)

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Offline TheWriterTopic starter

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1270364/Christian-preacher-hooligan-charge-saying-believes-homosexuality-sin.html#ixzz0mj1a1Wtr

On one hand, I've always had a problem with preachers; I don't think anyone has the right to try and crowbar their religion into a passerby's life.  But that said, everyone has the right to freedom of speech, so long as they keep in touch with societal values, which is the problem here; there are more tasteful ways to promote your faith than discriminating against any sort of division of the public.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 05:02:38 PM by TheWriter »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 05:32:07 PM »
I'unno... it's one thing to chat with someone if they're standing with you. I have a problem with shouting about homosexuality being a sin, which is what is being alleged. The first one is practicing free speech. The second one is looking to pick a fight, which is where the line really is.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 05:33:47 PM »
Was the preacher suffering a bit of insufferable 'holier than thou'? Possibly.

Other than that.. I think that it's a big case of 'he said/he said.'. I don't know what to say beyond that.

Offline Samael

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Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 05:46:48 PM »
Quote
I felt deeply shocked and humiliated that I had been arrested in my own town and treated like a common criminal in front of people I know,’ he said.

This quote of his amuses me.
I am sure gay and lesbian people walking by did not feel any different while they had to listen to how they will go to hell just because of who they are, yet, when he is on that end of the stick, it is suddenly bad.

Offline Serephino

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 07:46:07 PM »
He's an idiot, no doubt about it, but he has the right to be an idiot.  What I'm wondering is if it were someone promoting gay rights, would the same thing have happened?  Even if I don't agree with someone's views, I still don't think it right to treat different groups differently. 

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 07:53:19 PM »
What I'm wondering is if it were someone promoting gay rights, would the same thing have happened?


I don't really want to weigh in on this without more information, but your parallel is not accurate. This would be more like me going into a mall, standing in front of stores and handing out leaflets about how Christianity is an abomination and inherently evil. He wasn't just promoting Christianity, he was actively denigrating another group. I assume that the promotion of Christianity alone would not have led to a charge (presuming that he had permits and permission for street preaching).

Offline Jude

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 08:03:05 PM »
There are some areas in America, particularly conservative small towns, where promotion of gay rights (possibly in the form of an ass-less chaps parade down main street in a flamboyant fashion) would invoke the ire of locals and encourage them to find some sort of legal reason to shut it down.  That's the problem with the law that the British have apparently enacted.

Quote from: The Article
After seven hours locked up in a cell, he was charged with using abusive or insulting words or behaviour contrary to the Public Order Act 1986.
Insulting is purely in the eyes of the beholder.  The more self-righteous religious folk find any actions which defy their religious teachings to be abhorrent and offensive.  Their outrage is certainly no less powerful or prominent than the outrage that a homosexual might experience at being told their sexuality is a sin.

Simply feeling insulted or being upset should not be the basis for a law, because all sorts of things upset different people.  Personal prerogative is not a fair standard; under this law just about any action could be constructed as violating that Public Order Act.  This gives the police the right to pick and choose which instances will actually result in policing action, and thus gives the state all the authority it needs to violate the very purpose of Freedom of Speech.

Applied fairly, everyone's guilty.  Applied realistically, it's a basis for persecution of unpopular ideas.  That act never should've made it into the books--I'm glad I don't live in Britain.

Offline Serephino

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2010, 08:07:55 PM »
Yes, he was being obnoxious and ignorant, but that isn't the point.  The KKK are allowed to have parades last I knew.  They're... don't even get me started... but as long as they don't assault anyone or damage any private property they're allowed to have their parades and spew their garbage.

I don't like it, but once you get started on deciding what is free speech and what is criminal activity, I think that's a slippery slope.  What he was preaching was what he strongly believes.  As long as he wasn't attacking anyone, what's the harm?  I find getting told I'm going to hell annoying, but I ignore it. 

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2010, 08:54:33 PM »
Jesus was a preacher and didn't exactly pull punches so I would argue he is following the Christian tradition spreading the word. That said you can get more flies with honey than vinegar and I find his message weak for a street preacher.

Offline GeekFury

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2010, 08:13:32 AM »
Devils advocate: It IS in his religion that homosexuality is a sin, so it's not like he's stating anything overly controversial or new, you can read in the god book.

Do I agree he should be yelling about it in the street? No, I mean the whole church should try and modernise a bit, if anything I find it offensive they do say homosexuals will burn in hell and that use condoms is sinful as well. I have a good friends that's gay and he's a practising christian, nicest guy you could ever meet and he believes that if Jesus was to come to earth today he'd probably turn to these over zealous preachers and say "Don't be a dick, it's the 20Th century."

Offline Oniya

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Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2010, 09:14:53 AM »
Devils advocate: It IS in his religion that homosexuality is a sin, so it's not like he's stating anything overly controversial or new, you can read in the good book.

My biggest problem with this is that, in the same book that states that male homosexuality is against God's law, they also dictate that you can't eat pork (or any animal that doesn't have cloven hooves and chew the cud), shellfish (or any sea creature without fins and scales), or milk with meat.  You don't see any of these preachers declaring that eating a bacon cheeseburger will send you to hell.  Even Orthodox Jews (who do still follow these rules) use these laws as self-regulators.  It's not 'you can't eat that', it's 'I can't eat that.'

Leviticus as a whole was a set of rules/laws intended to keep a small, nomadic society in a region without adequate sanitation, food preservation, or resources from succumbing to underpopulation and disease.  We are hardly in that situation today.   

Offline Trieste

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Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2010, 09:18:01 AM »
Leviticus as a whole was a set of rules/laws intended to keep a small, nomadic society in a region without adequate sanitation, food preservation, or resources from succumbing to underpopulation and disease.  We are hardly in that situation today.   

Yes. This. x9000... and ONE.

The creative misinterpretations of the Bible drive me crazy also. Dude disobeys God and pulls out. What's wrong with this picture? Obviously it's masturbation!

Gah. *shakes head*

Offline Oniya

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Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2010, 09:29:10 AM »
Ah yes, the sin of Onan.  How 'coitus interruptus as birth control' got mutated into masturbation, I'll never know.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2010, 09:31:15 AM »
Utility in control and guilt is all I can come up with.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2010, 09:41:49 AM »
Let's not forget the power of raw idiocy and ignorance!

The problem is, that people still have a right to express their views, no matter how without merit. So long as it is in the appropriate context and forum. The difficulty is determining that last part.

Offline Xenophile

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2010, 11:23:35 AM »
Situations like these become much more complicated when people of authority are involved. If a "unimportant" persons would quote the Bible on the abomination of homosexuality in front of a camera, he would just be viewed as a buffoon and the world would move on.

However, what if the leader of a nation would say the same thing in a press conference? Imagine the consequences.

The Preacher comes somewhere in the middle of these, I think. That explains the ruckus this has made. People are afraid that individuals with authority can spread their beliefs and encourage those he has influence over to act on his behalf, so to speak.

I have nothing against an investigation on what the preacher said and his motives behind it in order to determine if there was any criminal intent behind it.

Offline Avi

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Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2010, 12:26:34 PM »
As a practicing Christian and a member of the Church of Christ, I believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God.  If you are so inclined to look for evidence of such, just look at the prophecies throughout the Old Testament that were fulfilled by the life of Jesus.  A list of just some of them can be found here: Prophecies of the Messiah.  The Bible is a living document, and is always relevant to the present time.

That being said, I have to say that I would side with the authorities on this one.  Believing and preaching that homosexuality is a sin is within the man's rights, and indeed, homosexuality is called an abomination several times through out the Bible.  However, denigrating people as less than human and treating them like trash is not the way to win hearts and minds.  There are tons of other ways to spread your message without coming across as an "I'm better than you, fear me!" Christian preacher, and most of them are much more effective. 

If people are going to change the way they live, they'll do it on their own.  Those who don't want to aren't going to listen to you anyway, so making them out to be monsters isn't going to do anything positive.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2010, 12:48:38 PM »
If you are so inclined to look for evidence of such, just look at the prophecies throughout the Old Testament that were fulfilled by the life of Jesus.  A list of just some of them can be found here: Prophecies of the Messiah.

Just FYI, I don't think that there is exactly consensus on that. In fact I can think of one or two groups very likely to disagree. So its value as evidence is questionable.

Offline Xenophile

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2010, 12:51:53 PM »
Bear in mind that the validity of the Christian Bible is not the point of this thread, so let us restrain ourselves before this thread devolve into yet another Atheism vs. Theism arguement, please.

Offline Avi

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Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2010, 12:53:51 PM »
Bear in mind that the validity of the Christian Bible is not the point of this thread, so let us restrain ourselves before this thread devolve into yet another Atheism vs. Theism arguement, please.

Agreed, I wasn't trying to get into that range of topics.  I was just arguing from a Christian's point of view that the Bible is seen as truth, and that's why "Homosexuality is an abomination unto the Lord" is taken so seriously.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 12:56:18 PM by Avi »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2010, 01:31:22 PM »
And that's all fine and good; if Christians don't like homosexuality, then they should refrain from being attracted to others of the same sex.

However, those of us who are not Christian don't really want to hear about how we're going to burn in a Hell (in which we don't believe, natch) and it certainly doesn't need to be shouted out while someone throws leaflets out from the top of a ladder.

Seriously, freedom of speech/religion is all fine and good until you get confrontational about it.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2010, 02:05:45 PM »
Seriously, freedom of speech/religion is all fine and good until you get confrontational about it.

Even confrontation is fine, if it is handled in a civilised fashion. Limiting expression is bad, regardless of what you think of the ideas. However, the method of expression is important. The problem arises when it becomes bothersome, inflammatory, or is at risk for inciting a crime. Don't know about the UK, but even here in the US, you can't hold demonstrations or street preach without permits, you can't incite riots, you can't incite violence.

Now I don't know the exact circumstance of the case, it does seem to be allot of accounts without evidence, and so far I have only seen one source for the accounts, which is why I am not willing to say whether this particular charge is warranted or not.

However, I do feel that people generally have the right not to be hassled when going about their day. The street corner is not your church. Passersby have not asked for your opinion, nor expressed any interest in your religion. If you have a permit, permission from the businesses, and no one complains, fine. But the minute you start making people uncomfortable you have crossed the line into harassment. This is the very essence of the crime of disturbing the peace.

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Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2010, 02:13:22 PM »
Another viewpoint on this is should religion provide a shield for (for lack of a better term) hate speech?

If I go on about women / men / immigrants / particular race / particular sexual orientation or state, and my speech crosses the line into criminal behavior, saying it is a personal or political belief is not likely to cut any ice with the police. Should religion provide a shield to hate behind?

Offline grdell

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2010, 09:00:35 AM »
I showed this article to a co-worker. He replied by saying "And here is the U.S. version:"

http://www.theonion.com/articles/supreme-court-upholds-freedom-of-speech-in-obsceni,17372/

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Christian preacher on hooligan charge for saying LGBT is a sin
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2010, 11:50:50 AM »
Its funny I picket and street preach in front of churches since my ministry with my uncle is to tear down the system and free souls from the Earthly system of ministries that place humans between the Christian and God. So I try to get people to not go to said church.

Its funny they ministers, priests and the like have major issues with me when I use my freedom of religion and speech when its directed at them yet they want the right to street preach like that man did.

Just odd that is all.