D&D Systems? (Totally newb to this fact right here)

[blackknight1239]

I would just like to add that comparing any system to WoW just shows that you would have an uneducated opinion on the system, and you have not played it or WoW. Too often is WoW used just as a basing term, because popular things must be bad.

On topic, I find D&D works fairly well in Play-by-post, if you don't mind the slow. Combat will take at least a week, if you're quick. Plus, with the learning of a whole system, the transition isn't that great. Unfortunately, the only other systems I play really don't have much in the way of better mechanics for this...Though, I've wondered how Amber Diceless would work.

[NotoriusBEN]

I will take the bold course and ostracize myself in saying that I like 4e DnD... and pre-BC WoW (that's right, way~ back in v1.11 back to 1.3 when I bought it)

Does it have similarities to WoW? yes. you pretty much have the same class make ups. Tanks, Casters, DPS, yadda, yadda. And we could get into a cyclical argument about who started it first like the chicken and the egg, but that's moot.

I like 4th Ed. *because* of the simplicity over 3rd Ed. Each class you choose *is* geared to a specific role within the group. Everyone has a part to play and it is defined for them. Another thing I like is that WotC spread healing over many different classes from the classic cleric to new warlords, artificers, and runepriests, ad nauseum.

4th Ed. was the edition I was able to bring my computer friends onboard for. If it is geared like a CPU game on paper, that's all the better because that's what they knew. What was exciting and brilliant was when they started to try things like leaveraging a boulder onto the enemies below, or swinging from a chandelier like a swashbuckler.

Sure, small things the PnP and PbP crowd takes for granted, but these guys were conditioned into not being able to do those things do to cpu limitations. It was that light that hit their eyes when they realized they could try anything and actually succeed (as well as fail) at them.

[Thufir Hawat]

4th Ed. was the edition I was able to bring my computer friends onboard for. If it is geared like a CPU game on paper, that's all the better because that's what they knew. What was exciting and brilliant was when they started to try things like leaveraging a boulder onto the enemies below, or swinging from a chandelier like a swashbuckler.

Sure, small things the PnP and PbP crowd takes for granted, but these guys were conditioned into not being able to do those things do to cpu limitations. It was that light that hit their eyes when they realized they could try anything and actually succeed (as well as fail) at them.

Doesn't matter what system you used, but that's a good job !

Personally, I'm surprised to see most groups here playing traditional systems. I like traditional systems, but given the emphasis on storytelling on E., I expected more indie games !

[NotoriusBEN]

I think the reason for traditional systems is because it is more likely that a random person would have at least the core DnD books, compared to something esoteric like CthuluTech, Qin, Grimm, or BESM. And adding to that, if someone already has the book(s), they at least have a working knowledge of the core mechanics.

Going back to the OP's question, the core mechanic of DnD 3rd ed. and later is to role a twenty-sided die against a static number and beat it.

After that, like many games where it's easy to learn but hard to master, you have exceptions and specifics to the rules.  Dont worry, a play session or two and you will understand the flow of the more rules heavy sections like combat.

[Thufir Hawat]

I think the reason for traditional systems is because it is more likely that a random person would have at least the core DnD books, compared to something esoteric like CthuluTech, Qin, Grimm, or BESM. And adding to that, if someone already has the book(s), they at least have a working knowledge of the core mechanics.

That's still not a good answer, sorry, not to mention that Qin is rather traditional except for the setting. It might have been a good answer once, but now FATE is free, as well as PDQ, and I could go on and on . Either of these is more oriented towards a story than D&D.
Also, E. is big enough that there are enough people that you stand a chance that someone has read whatever system you want to play, or someone might have enough free time to read it if it's legally free.
Besides, how many people you know on E. who have played a system, are willing to play a system game, but only played one system and don't want to read another?
Personally, I think it's more of a habit thing, but I also think it's a habit that makes it harder for other people to make a transition from freeform games, even if they want to.

[MasterMischief]

I fail to see how that is not a 'good' answer.  D&D is the Coke of the RPG market.  Now you may argue there are better systems out there...cheaper systems.  But most non-gamers have at least heard of D&D.

[Thufir Hawat]

That's indeed what I argue, or almost . Just notice, I'm not saying these are "better systems" overall, because whether I prefer other systems or not, that would be a subjective preference.
What I'm claiming is that they are "better for bringing in new players, especially new players with certain backgrounds" . And yes, many non-gamers have heard of D&D, but saying "it's like D&D, just more story-oriented and free" doesn't take much time, and usually improves your argument !
That should be its own topic, though, and probably go in the forums for approved members, but you can always post a link here if you start it. This thread had a specific question, and it was answered .

[Paradox]

This thread had a specific question, and it was answered .

True, but now there's a new thread with a very similar question!

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=72856

Maybe one of the helpful people in this thread could assist him.

[Thufir Hawat]

True, but now there's a new thread with a very similar question!

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=72856

Maybe one of the helpful people in this thread could assist him.

Funny, it opens to a thread where someone is looking for a GM, not a discussion of the merits of systems in general . Since the guy is asking for D&D, maybe someone who actually likes the system could help?
Besides, judging by his posting activity, I don't think my schedule would allow running a chat game for him !

[RubySlippers]

One excellent system and there are good prices on older used copies is Palladium Fantasy RPG it has a bit of a learning curve but is excellent with many class options and a mix of D20 and percentile systems. And the magic system beats for me many others.

For a new player I still recommend the Basic Fantasy RPG its nicely fan supported, based off of DnD 3.5 and older rules and at the simple level easy to pick up. And FREE.

And another fine option is Pathfinder I kind of fell in love with this one a game that can be all in one book, priced to be market standard and is supported by outside companies and on-line fan sources if you care to use them. And lower level character definately have advantages when considering survivability and the basic classes on their own ,even the fighter now, are impressive.

But for a new player I would avoid complexity try the Basic Fantasy RPG then ease into a more advanced system if you would like.

[Thufir Hawat]

Just wanted to note that it's definitely the first time I hear someone giving Palladium as an example for a system .

For a new player, I'd recommend the Basic Role Playing system, which is percentile-based and can be used for fantasy, historic, sci-fi, modern, horror or pretty much any kind of setting. It's also FREE, has equally free setting material, gets nice fan-support, and on top of that, it's easily compatible with other percentile systems like WFRP2, which are also extensively fan-supported !

[roleplayinggrl18]

I really enjoy most system games, and am generally willing to try just about any system.  Fate is actually a really good system for the online format being very narratively driven, but D&D is usually the easiest to get people to play.

[Thufir Hawat]

I really enjoy most system games, and am generally willing to try just about any system.  Fate is actually a really good system for the online format being very narratively driven, but D&D is usually the easiest to get people to play.

So, why is it in your opinion easier to get people to play D&D instead of a system that has the advantage of being easier in play ?

I admit I'm still curious. Maybe I should really start a poll !

[Lithos]

I suppose that it is simply more popular, and many people have some measure of experience for making up for lacking people being there in person from their pen and paper groups.

To make dirty confession here.. I actually do like 4:th ed a bit :p

We had very nice and tight gaming group that got spread all over the country geographically so we had to start using irc and such as helping means during session, could have GM and one person physically there and rest on irc channel and such, so know that it works for that, so maybe that sort of experiences are what makes people go for that.

[Thufir Hawat]

Now, that's a possible answer, although I admit I haven't thought of it. We just play other games in our tabletop sessions .

To make dirty confession here.. I actually do like 4:th ed a bit :p

Here, take that shield and watch out for stone-throwing people !

[RubySlippers]

Just wanted to note that it's definitely the first time I hear someone giving Palladium as an example for a system .

For a new player, I'd recommend the Basic Role Playing system, which is percentile-based and can be used for fantasy, historic, sci-fi, modern, horror or pretty much any kind of setting. It's also FREE, has equally free setting material, gets nice fan-support, and on top of that, it's easily compatible with other percentile systems like WFRP2, which are also extensively fan-supported !

I do prefer the earlier edition without the power point system it just adds to much crap to the system. And come on part of the fun of a Summoner is ordering around a greater demon at 1st Level and hope it doesn't eat you. And the Witch is just cool you sell your soul or something to a demon lord for POWER. The only system with the balls to do that.  But its a great system very elegant and one book for all the core rules and its not overly expensive.

[Farmboy]

Given that we are talking about CHAT games, D&D has the advantage of an online rules set (for 3.5) and online dice. Why should anyone, in CHAT, use any other system, except if they both already have the same books?

dice
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20dicebag.htm

rules
http://www.d20srd.org/

I have started many people in table top D&D, going all the way back to Christmas of 1983 when I taught a full group by reading the D&D book outloud then playing in Keep at the Borderlands. After a while I just gave them dice and a premade sheet and said, "Just say what you want to do and I'll tell you what to roll." That always worked great.

The argument that goes, I live on an island, doesn't hold water. If they can chat, they can surf, and it's all free online.

That is one reason why it is popular. But asking why anything is popular is the road to madness. I find Starcraft to be intensely boring, but it was incredibly popular. YMMV

[Thufir Hawat]

Given that we are talking about CHAT games, D&D has the advantage of an online rules set (for 3.5) and online dice. Why should anyone, in CHAT, use any other system, except if they both already have the same books?

That's not unique, putting it mildly. FATE has several variants of rules for different genres available online for free, as well as many other systems. And there is a diceroller on E.

[MasterMischief]

Have fun storming the castle.

You can rail against it all you want, but the fact remains that D&D is popular.  I speak from some experience.  I hate D&D...in all its class based incarnations.  Hate is probably not a strong enough term.  Loathe?  Abhor?  In my opinion, the system is flawed beyond redemption.  And yet, it remains the most popular role playing game...ever.

That popularity is going to spill out into other mediums.  Books.  Video games.  Movies (I think I just threw up a little in my mouth).  And yes, role playing forums.  Is it the easiest to teach to someone with no role playing experience?  No.  Free form or maybe Risus if you absolutely need some rules would probably be the easiest.  I think it is simply a matter of D&D being so popular, there are more people willing to teach their game of choice to new people.

[Thufir Hawat]

Have fun storming the castle.

Thanks, but I'd rather blow up the door first !

You can rail against it all you want, but the fact remains that D&D is popular.  I speak from some experience.  I hate D&D...in all its class based incarnations.  Hate is probably not a strong enough term.  Loathe?  Abhor?  In my opinion, the system is flawed beyond redemption.  And yet, it remains the most popular role playing game...ever.

I know it is popular. And I don't hate it, I just find it doesn't work so well for me.
I also know some people who nearly gave up on RPGs in general, because the system didn't work for them. That's why I offer other choices when people ask about systems !
Personally, I find that it doesn't matter how people start roleplaying, as long as they do. Most people are willing to try another system anyway, even if they play D&D the most, so in a way, it works for you, too .

That popularity is going to spill out into other mediums.  Books.  Video games.  Movies (I think I just threw up a little in my mouth).  And yes, role playing forums.  Is it the easiest to teach to someone with no role playing experience?  No.  Free form or maybe Risus if you absolutely need some rules would probably be the easiest.  I think it is simply a matter of D&D being so popular, there are more people willing to teach their game of choice to new people.

As I said, I'm not worried for the people who can play with D&D, but about the ones who wouldn't play if it was the only available option.
I also don't play freeform, and Risus just doesn't engage me on a tactical level. It doesn't matter, really. Variety is the keyword here, so everyone just uses a system that works best for your purposes! This might even vary between different stories. What surprises me is when people come up with excuses to stick to a system that's not going to help them for the kind of story they want to tell.
The simple solution is, when you want to play, you just teach someone a system of your choice. Most systems can be explained in under 5 minutes anyway, so it's not such a big deal. As you can see on E, enough people play other systems already, so there might be no need to explain .

[Darkforged Dove]

Wow, I bet Kong is going to have a laugh fest after reading all of these posts. I know I did. 

I really like how the "oldschoolgamer" somehow forgets that 1st and 2nd Edition were never played for long as it was out of the box. Did your group really force wizards to start with 1 HP if they rolled low at character creation? Did your group actually abide by all of the restrictions and limitations that are imposed on the different characters classes as per the rulebooks?

Honestly, I'm betting that's a big fat solid no. You played as much 1st or 2nd Edition as I did; that is to say, you probably played a highly house-ruled, and heavily modified version of the "rules".

3rd edition was... actually playable out of the box. Until you got to level 6-10; at which point you needed to start house ruling so that the Fighter got their artifact sword, and the monk got their item of "break the wealth by level guidelines", because they are such a gimped class in the PHB compared to the brutal monsters they are expected to face. One encounter per level in 3rd is expected to be 1 Creature of a CR that is equal to the PC that it will be fighting. So, it's not 1 stone golem that the PCs will eventually face at level 10, but 4, and each PC needs to be able to have a 50/50 chance of beating them, if not the party risks a TPK.

4th edition is even more playable out of the box...... rather more playable 'in' the box. If you know what I mean. You can't affect terrain features, you can't be creative with your powers (dark fire can't melt ice? wtf, srlsy? that's aggressively stupid).

4th, in many regards is less D&D than a new game system with D&D elements slapped onto it.


Of the four editions though, I'd say that 3rd actually gave the most RP potential. 2nd has this big massive mythical mystique about it... that is false. Anything that you can do poorly with a character in 2nd, you can do effectively in 3rd. The skill system, a by-product, and a houserule designed for 2nd edition; was one of the better additions made to the game.

The removal of the double math of THAC0, and instead changing to a single scaling track, with sinlge order arithmetic is exactly what you want in game design (ease of use that is, keeping it simple is advanced; something AD&D was actually not, in many ways it was stupid, and very much stupid).


In any case, myself, I play a heavily modified, and radically pared down version of 3.X. A stack of about 70 pages replaces all of my rule books, splat books, and various compendiums. Only the DMG (for stats for dungeon terrain features, my PCs love to gouge through walls and structures, since they are around level 11, and a castle's walls means nothing to a barbarianess with adamantine clawed gauntlets) and a monster manual for the day, are all I ever actually need with me at a game. Of course, a lot of useless things in 3.0/3.5 are removed and replaced with those 70 printed pages, but then, I'd rather use the Dungeonomicon Monk, or the Races of War Fighter or Barbarian in my games, and my players are completely in accord with that.

Of course, there's always the very good standby argument of "you people aren't actually playing D&D, and should be playing MERP or Pendragon". Because honestly, most people don't seem to understand that D&D is balls to the wall crazy, from level 1 to 16 (anything past 16 is an exercise in madness; since everyone is in crazytown and the PCs are the mayors). Although... level 20 games are fun.

[roleplayinggrl18]

Yeah, the reason that it is easier to get people to play D&D is that most people have heard of it (and lots have played it).

Other games may be better (in my opinion a lot are) but none are more recognized.  Fortunately (IMO) once people play D&D it is not too difficult to get them to try other games as well.

[National Acrobat]

This thread is interesting. I am an 'old school gamer' who has played DnD for a very long time, and currently, still play with a lot of the same folks I was playing with 20+ years ago.

We're still playing Basic/Expert DnD sometimes (Red Book/Blue Book, the one with the Erol Otus Covers) but mainly 1E ADnD, as written, from the Books, although we use Unearthed Arcana for additional classes and spells and magic items.

The only real house rules we have are that Demi Humans can be clerics (using the NPC levels from the PHB Charts) and that wizards can get bonus spells for high intelligence like clerics can with wisdom.

Other than that, we pretty much use the rules as written.

What's funny is that most of the folks in my group, grew up on 1E ADnD and patently refuse to play other systems, and even other versions of DnD. Of the eight of us in the group, three have played in 3E Groups, and 2 have played some 4E. The only other systems that members of our group play regularly are Classic Traveler and the Original Gamma World.

Another group I play with sometimes uses the Mutants and Masterminds rules. Quite a contrast I guess.

[Thufir Hawat]

I have limited experience with OD&D, meaning, I'm playing it by post now and I've seen a copy of the rules . It's not a bad system for what it sets out to do, dungeon crawls are fun with the right GM and group.
The only problem I see with D&D on E is, most games here have little to do with dungeon crawling, except for a very specific meaning of "dungeon", and OD&D doesn't really support almost any other activities, mechanically speaking !

[Lithos]

Mechanics are meant to be tweaked with house rules anyway!

Altough I still reminiscence about my female troll in Runequest fondly with her near perfect courtesan skill. Nothing like eating a gentlemans horse alive while making sure that he does not get away - till it is time for the main course... skill aside I think that most of them would have preferred to be eaten :p