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Author Topic: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform  (Read 2317 times)

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Offline VekseidTopic starter

David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« on: March 22, 2010, 05:35:40 AM »
"Waterloo"

Quote
...

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.

There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly – with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?

...

Most of the more hardline conservative response I see focuses on the second paragraph - people claiming that Republicans did not in fact have any room to negotiate. That doesn't ring very well with me. The mandates in particular come to mind.

Offline alxnjsh

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2010, 12:54:22 PM »
This video is pretty cool...my representative is quoted and I of course couldn't be less disgusted by him...as usual. Shame John Kline!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/22/health-care-10-minutes-video_n_508189.html

Offline Doomsday

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2010, 12:57:22 PM »
I read this on another website, I thought Mr. Frum said it very well.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2010, 04:43:58 PM »
President Ike proposed covering everyone in the 1950's and he was a conservative and Republican president wasn't he?

He's right if the Republicans and other conservatives seriously came to the table it would have been better and so would the new law but its done. Now its up to the courts and by the opinions of legal experts the states have little if any chance to stop this with precedents strongly favoring the Federal government and most of these opinion once were favored by the Republicans when they were in power. Hypocrites.

I don't get it I oppose government action but the free market will not fix health care and without the serious efforts of the conservatives to temper it this is what we got. I don't like some of the bill but since I need the bills terms to survive I support it and so will most poor people when they get the help. Then try and take it away.

Offline ThePrince

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2010, 09:50:13 PM »
It should be noted that the health care bill that was passed Sunday night, is almost exactly the same Health Care over haul Mitt Romney did with Massachusetts four years ago. In fact its more conservative because it has price controls and needed cuts to Medicare.

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Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2010, 08:43:16 AM »
The things people are saying are now reminiscent of the reaction to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. There were dire Republican threats back then that it would cost the election, and there were lawsuits especially against the busing requirements.

I continue to be puzzled as to why anyone would oppose extending quality healthcare to millions of people, most of them underprivileged children. "Eat your green beans; there are starving children in Africa" turns into "Be grateful for your vaccinations; there are poor children in the US." The sense of "zomg the government shouldn't be able to force me to do anything!" is ludicrous.

They force you to pay taxes.

They force you to drive relatively responsibly.

They do these things by hitting your pocketbook, since money is an enormous impetus for people to follow the law. Don't pay your taxes? You'll owe lots more. Get in too many accidents? You face fines and license suspension. I notice that these champions, the states filing lawsuits against this bill, aren't exactly lining up to abolish things like income taxes or mandatory auto insurance for cars on the road. Hmmm.

Offline Doomsday

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 10:35:25 AM »
I don't like to think you're forced to pay taxes. You don't like paying taxes? Elect someone who will lower them.

It seems like half of the opposition to the health care reform is "It's too expensive" which is sort of a legit argument, and the other half is just "Fuck you, I got mine!"

Offline Lady Ayame

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 01:04:27 PM »
It seems like half of the opposition to the health care reform is "It's too expensive" which is sort of a legit argument, and the other half is just "Fuck you, I got mine!"

This made me LOL

because this is the ONLY reason my parents are in such an uproar about it haha.

EDIT: I read the basic overview of the health reform acts and eventually they'll force everybody to sign up for healthcare weather they want to or not or face a hefty fine.
I'm unsettled by this simply because america was founded on the fact that we're Free to do shit, so shouldn't we have the right to choose?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 01:06:46 PM by Lady Ayame »

Offline Revolverman

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 01:36:34 PM »
I don't like to think you're forced to pay taxes. You don't like paying taxes? Elect someone who will lower them.

If you can be thrown in prison or possibly killed for not paying taxes, then ya, your forced to pay them.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 02:01:42 PM »
Well the only main arguement they are making and it is legitimate is can the government at the Federal Level make a private citizen in the United States pay for insurance and if not punish them with a tax fine. There are grounds normally the 10th Amendment and the 9th Amendment would prevent that but the Federal Courts will decide if this is constitutional.

Although that doesn't matter most of the law is legal the other taxes, Medicaid expansion and oversight of the medical insurance industry so the bulk of the bill will stay in place unless the courts are on LSD.  ;)

And there is another odd point the courts could say you can't mandate insurance but can tax people if they don't have insurance, as odd as it sounds since that money could be seen as necessary for health care services to the citizens in need. As odd as that sounds.

Offline Jude

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2010, 03:54:18 PM »
Mandating that everyone have health insurance was really the only way they could get rid of pre-existing conditions without radically changing the way insurance works.  The pre-existing conditions ban was originally designed so that people couldn't buy insurance when they get sick to have their doctor visit paid for, then cancel after.  There are other alternatives, but they would also require gigantic changes to the way that health care is delivered in this country (changes that are almost equally as invasive on personal liberty and don't lower cost).

I still don't like the idea, on a level of principles I disagree with what they've done, but principles only get you so far.  You can't stubbornly rely on ideology and ignore practicality and make good political decisions.  I don't want the government forcing people to do the right thing, but in this situation I think it's the only way to our broken healthcare system.  These measures will save lives, money, and increase our competitiveness in the global economy.

What I don't understand is, why are people against giving up a little bit of freedom in this situation, when they're perfectly fine with it in others.  Republicans didn't so much as blink an eyelash when the Patriot Act was passed and the country went-security crazy after 9/11 and terrorism kills fewer people than lack of health insurance by an order of magnitude.  We were willing to spend money on that too.

The hypocrisy is just incredible.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2010, 04:05:11 PM »
Well the constitutional issues are completely uncharted if the courts side with the Federal authority they create a entirely new precedent in case law and that is a huge move.

If they uphold the unconstitutional statusnof the mandate that will defer the rights to mandate to the states who would need to pass laws to do so, the Federal government can compel them by tying making such laws to Federal funding. But there is the 9th Amendment a case could be made in Federal court that mandates violates the rights of the person directly and that since this isnot a State law save in Massachusets that its unconstitutional.

I tend to favor the first but since I am directly benefitting from this big time don't feel I'm unbiased in that.

Offline Serephino

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2010, 08:52:30 PM »
The problem is this...  My boyfriend read in the paper that the annual income limit for free insurance is $1400.  He swears that's not monthly, but annually.  Now if that's true it's completely crazy.  Of course, knowing him as I do, I'm taking that with a grain of salt until I see it myself.  But still...  The limit for Medicaid in my state was $701/month for 1 person.  That's pretty low.  I make a few hundred over and would never be able to survive on my own without living in government housing.  It's the government, there's going to be a crack for people to fall through. 

Offline RubySlippers

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2010, 09:10:41 PM »
The bill setsthe limit for Medicaid at 133% of the Federal poverty line currently for a single person that would be $14,403(?) a year for a family fo four its $30,400(?). That is clear in the bill and why states are upset they must cover that on need not the disability status of the individual like they do in Florida. But in my view its a necessay move that is the group able-bodied or not with the greatest need. And I will add its not free in my state there are small office call costs and you have to pay something for medicines.

But state hospitals are interested right now if I go to the hospital they cannot charge me, that can get expensive and any money is better than the current nothing.

Offline Doomsday

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2010, 04:18:15 PM »
If you can be thrown in prison or possibly killed for not paying taxes, then ya, your forced to pay them.

In a literal sense, no you're not. Why would they make you pay the taxes when you're in jail? :P

But no, what I mean is... These people were elected through our great democracy. They weren't just hired in without being scrutinized and judged by our voters. If these people who were elected by popular vote decide to raise taxes, that's the will of the American people.

Offline Revolverman

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2010, 04:43:07 PM »
In a literal sense, no you're not. Why would they make you pay the taxes when you're in jail? :P

But no, what I mean is... These people were elected through our great democracy. They weren't just hired in without being scrutinized and judged by our voters. If these people who were elected by popular vote decide to raise taxes, that's the will of the American people.

Its the will of SOME of the America people. Just because 51 out of 100 people want something, doesn't mean the other 49 should have to cowtow to the (VERY slim) Majority. If a person doesn't want to pay a cent in taxes, well that's their right. they just can't use any Government provided services.

Offline Jude

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2010, 05:09:46 PM »
Its the will of SOME of the America people. Just because 51 out of 100 people want something, doesn't mean the other 49 should have to cowtow to the (VERY slim) Majority.
I think you're right about this.  We're a Democratic Republic, which sets us apart from a pure majority-rules Democracy.  The Constitution exists as a stumbling block to slow the progress of change so that the majority cannot get anything it wants unless it's persistent and vast.  In the end anything can be changed, even the Constitution can be amended.  However, you're misrepresenting the majority of the Democrats (assuming you meant your comments in the context of Healthcare as per the topics).  Obama was elected by quite a bit more than a 2% margin and the Democrats gained seats in the House and Senate by a larger margin as well.

You could argue that they're going against the will of the majority, or at least a very large chunk of the population, but there's plenty of ways to debate that too.  Personally I'd say they're fulfilling the promises they were elected on, and although the American people may have changed their points of view, they are simply making their promises reality that they made to get elected.

It's an interesting conundrum:  should a politician govern by polls or the platform on which they were elected?  I defer to the latter because I think the American people make more reasonable judgments over the course of the campaign season and actually try to educate themselves aside from political propaganda during that season.  The distaste for current policies can be chalked up to months and months of debate and intelligent (albeit deceptive) political propaganda.  The non-partisan information on misconceptions collected by Politifact would certainly agree with me on that.
If a person doesn't want to pay a cent in taxes, well that's their right. they just can't use any Government provided services.
I'm pretty sure that's not written in the Constitution (or anywhere else).  You don't have a right to not pay taxes, you're punished if you don't.  Granted, you can always leave the country, then you won't have to.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 05:14:56 PM by Jude »

Offline Revolverman

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2010, 05:18:26 PM »
However, you're misrepresenting the majority of the Democrats (assuming you meant your comments in the context of Healthcare as per the topics).  Obama was elected by quite a bit more than a 2% margin and the Democrats gained seats in the House and Senate by a larger margin as well.
I just use that example as in almost all democratic nations, the winning party (or collation) margin of victory is quite tiny.


I'm pretty sure that's not written in the Constitution (or anywhere else).  You don't have a right to not pay taxes, you're punished if you don't.  Granted, you can always leave the country, then you won't have to.

Its not, but I'm arguing morally, and from the human rights idea, forcing someone to give up what they earned could be thought of as theft, or slavery. Also, I believe the IRS claims the right to still tax people if they have left the US. Not sure if that's true though.

Offline Jude

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2010, 05:38:21 PM »
How exactly would one go about not using government services and exist in the United States anyway?

You'd have to take yourself out of the jurisdiction of any police stations, somehow make it OK for foreign powers to attack you without the threat of the United States Military to defend you, use absolutely no transportation services, you couldn't buy any commercial products, etc.  Even if you lived purely off of nature, you'd still benefit from the EPA and other regulations.

I think it's pretty much impossible to not use government services in most countries in the world.

Only way I can think of is if you were to leave and give up your citizenship... in which case you wouldn't have to pay taxes anyway.

Offline Revolverman

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2010, 05:43:16 PM »
How exactly would one go about not using government services and exist in the United States anyway?

You'd have to take yourself out of the jurisdiction of any police stations, somehow make it OK for foreign powers to attack you without the threat of the United States Military to defend you, use absolutely no transportation services, you couldn't buy any commercial products, etc.  Even if you lived purely off of nature, you'd still benefit from the EPA and other regulations.

I think it's pretty much impossible to not use government services in most countries in the world.

Only way I can think of is if you were to leave and give up your citizenship... in which case you wouldn't have to pay taxes anyway.

Ah, but then that's because the government has made it so its impossible to live with out having to deal with them. A problem in it of itself. A reason why they need so much taxes, besides the corruption and funneling to connected businesses.

Offline Jude

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2010, 05:46:51 PM »
So you're advocating for getting rid of the military, the court system, and the police?

Offline Revolverman

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2010, 05:50:22 PM »
So you're advocating for getting rid of the military, the court system, and the police?


Military yes. There's no reason to keep a standing army that spends more then every army on earth combined. Also, I do not like your straw man argument. I simply call for the reduction of government power, and its influence in our lives, and economy, and you use the tired attack of "getting rid of the courts and police.". I think FEDERAL police powers should be removed mind you.

Offline Jude

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2010, 05:54:12 PM »
Not intended as a strawman, I was just stating the logical consequences of what I understood your opinion to be.  You were saying it was a problem that there exists government authorities that offer services which cannot be declined, so I gave you examples of such services which would have to be terminated for such a position to exist and asked you if you'd terminate them.  I'm not seeing the strawman here?

I don't understand your point about how power being legitimate in the hands of the states and not in the hands of the federal government.  The difference is size.  Local is to State is to Federal; won't the argument gradually go from there to "state power isn't legitimate, lets go for local only!"  I mean, where do you stop?

You sound like an anarchist.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 05:55:39 PM by Jude »

Offline VekseidTopic starter

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2010, 06:46:35 AM »

Military yes. There's no reason to keep a standing army that spends more then every army on earth combined. Also, I do not like your straw man argument. I simply call for the reduction of government power, and its influence in our lives, and economy, and you use the tired attack of "getting rid of the courts and police.". I think FEDERAL police powers should be removed mind you.

Some federal police powers are important (if only as a form of interstate extradition) in order to resolve interstate crime and handling international issues.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: David Frum on the passage of Health Care Reform
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2010, 02:20:32 PM »
Actually the marine corps, navy and coast guard are all arguably legal under the US Consitution if one attaches the last as part of the "us naval forces" but one can argue they are a police force as well with rescue duties. So those are all fine. The air force and army are another matter since anything else should be funded by the states with state nco and Federally appointed officers, with the states controlling the militia. What is supposed to happen was what was done in the Civil War the Federal government declares war and requests the states raise their militias for military service. A fine check and balance since this assures the army is not at the whim of the Federal government and would be defending their homes and states. And governors could say - fuck off.

As for the other issues such as mandates on people there is nothing to overtly allow that and the law would likely there fail ,that part, in 10th and perhaps 9th Amendment grounds. But the rest of the law is legal unless you can refute the right of the Federal Government to tax companies, operate Medicaid and Medicare and tax income. They could add the tax penalty in theory and keep the mandate illegal, so one could not have to get insurance but if not then your penalized with added taxes for the burden to the state. True that would be unlikely.

But this is on the mandates a precedent setting decision the government could go either way if the courts judge the law in different ways. They are likely going to be reaching for an ok to the whole thing legally will be my guess.