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Author Topic: Can Haiti Survive?  (Read 1965 times)

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Offline adventurerTopic starter

Can Haiti Survive?
« on: January 22, 2010, 06:07:52 AM »

A brilliant article by journalist Georgie Anne Geyer:

Can Haiti survive?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_km2912/is_201001/ai_n48675501/

WASHINGTON -- The United States and many other nations across the globe are sending water, food and troops to benighted Haiti. Charity groups and NGOs from New York to San Francisco are collecting money. The French are calling for a "conference on Haiti's reconstruction and development

Offline consortium11

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2010, 07:09:02 AM »
Can't see the rest of the article without subscribing, so comments will be limited.

It has to be said on the surface it's hard to see why the Dominican Republic has been so (relatively) successful compared to Haiti.

Offline adventurerTopic starter

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 08:01:06 AM »

Try this from Jared Diamond:

Haiti and the Dominican Republic: One Island, Two Worlds

http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=4776

Haiti and the Dominican Republic may share one island but their histories unfolded quite differently. In “Collapse,” this week’s Globalist Bookshelf selection, Jared Diamond gives insight into the vast economic, political and ecological differences between these two Caribbean countries.

Offline adventurerTopic starter

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 08:06:40 AM »

heres to free access to Georgie Anne Geyers article:

http://www.uexpress.com/georgieannegeyer/

Offline Sabby

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 08:50:31 AM »
WASHINGTON -- The United States and many other nations across the globe are sending water, food and troops to benighted Haiti. Charity groups and NGOs from New York to San Francisco are collecting money. The French are calling for a "conference on Haiti's reconstruction and development

Hehehe... everyone else is in there with their sleeves rolled up, while France is 'having a conference'

Jokes aside, I'm pretty ignorant to this... all I know is an island had an earthquake recently o.O I don't get much international news, but I do hear very stupid people saying that drifting ice berg sightings, hurricane katrina, New Orleans flooding, and now Haiti's earthquake are all signs of 2012...

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 09:45:35 AM »
I'm a bit more positive than most folks (I recall some folks calling for us to ABANDON New Orleans at first...). Will there be problems? Definitely. Will more people die? Sadly yes. Is the Haitian Government destroyed/collapsed? We'll have to see. (I hope they get back on their feet)

All I can do is donate what little I can.. and think good thoughts for the survivors.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 09:55:21 AM »
Hehehe... everyone else is in there with their sleeves rolled up, while France is 'having a conference'

Jokes aside, I'm pretty ignorant to this... all I know is an island had an earthquake recently o.O I don't get much international news, but I do hear very stupid people saying that drifting ice berg sightings, hurricane katrina, New Orleans flooding, and now Haiti's earthquake are all signs of 2012...

I'd say that the calendar would be a sign of 2012, wouldn't you? :)



The mess is pretty bad. It's my understanding that the Domincan Republic has a more established government, that they are more organized. Haiti is pretty notorious for being subject to essential anarchy... I'm not sure it will change any time soon, either. At the same time, there's no sense in not trying.

Offline Sabby

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 10:03:19 AM »
I'd say that the calendar would be a sign of 2012, wouldn't you? :)

The conspiracy is THAT deep?! D=

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 11:28:48 AM »
Survive. Yes.

Propsper at all, not likely.

I saw a father in the news getting food and water that had EIGHT children. If they are so irresponsible to breed so much they cannot get sensible in other areas. They need to have some basis for an economy and they have nothing. The people are undereducated and underskilled. They have no meaningful self-sufficiency with regards to food production. Have no commodities to sell. And as I see it no self-responsibility as a people to get their act together. Oddly their neighbors the Dominican Republic did and they are in good shape so it can't be what is there its the people and the ability to get their act together. So it has to be the people and not the situation they were in for many decades.

I see we should help them but pouring more money into Haiti when we poured money into that country for years is just pouring more money into a big hole to disappear.

Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 01:34:14 PM »
Survive. Yes.

Propsper at all, not likely.

I saw a father in the news getting food and water that had EIGHT children. If they are so irresponsible to breed so much they cannot get sensible in other areas. They need to have some basis for an economy and they have nothing. The people are undereducated and underskilled. They have no meaningful self-sufficiency with regards to food production. Have no commodities to sell. And as I see it no self-responsibility as a people to get their act together. Oddly their neighbors the Dominican Republic did and they are in good shape so it can't be what is there its the people and the ability to get their act together. So it has to be the people and not the situation they were in for many decades.

I see we should help them but pouring more money into Haiti when we poured money into that country for years is just pouring more money into a big hole to disappear.

Sadly the less educated and more destitute the population it seems the more kids they have, that's especially true for rural areas. Baby-making is probably a better alternative to staring at the wall I guess.

Can they survive? Surely, banks and stores are starting to re-open slowly as we speak. However the impact on an already downtrodden nation will most likely make things worse, I'm not sure simply pouring money in will do much. Their infrastructure needs to be built up obviously, however I'm skeptical about organizations making good and efficient use of the charity money rather than "losing" it in some accounting error.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2010, 02:29:24 PM »
You know, most of the people in Haiti don't appear to have access to clean water. As a country they are diseased and demoralized. Starvation is rampant, and the populace is undereducated.

It's not like they can just run down to the corner store for some Trojans and a Yaz.

Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2010, 02:30:45 PM »
You know, most of the people in Haiti don't appear to have access to clean water. As a country they are diseased and demoralized. Starvation is rampant, and the populace is undereducated.

It's not like they can just run down to the corner store for some Trojans and a Yaz.

That's true, but we're just discussing the facts as it pertains to poverty and children, etc.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2010, 02:33:56 PM »
Sorry, I probably should have noted that my reply was in response to Ruby's judgement on them as irresponsible.

I saw a father in the news getting food and water that had EIGHT children. If they are so irresponsible to breed so much they cannot get sensible in other areas.

It's hard to be irresponsible with something to which one does not have access.

Offline Morven

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 05:23:53 PM »
Having lots of children means that the odds of enough surviving to care for you in your old age is better.  If the infant or young adult mortality is high, having lots of children is a good way of ensuring you get grandchildren.

It's not as dumb as arrogant first-worlders might think.


Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 05:25:35 PM »
Having lots of children means that the odds of enough surviving to care for you in your old age is better.  If the infant or young adult mortality is high, having lots of children is a good way of ensuring you get grandchildren.

It's not as dumb as arrogant first-worlders might think.

Thing is it happens even in the first world where contraception is prevalent.

Offline Morven

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 05:38:11 PM »
Reason 1 also applies in the first world, if you're poor. 

Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 05:41:39 PM »
Perhaps, but as a conscious thought in the minds of the parents that's not very likely. It's obviously not comparable to a place like Haiti.

I come from an interesting town where there's both the very, very wealthy and the very poor. The very poor are mostly hispanic, from Puerto Rico or several generations descended from.

Offline Morven

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 05:43:16 PM »
Somewhere like Haiti, having a big family that can help out is a survival tactic.

And it takes a few generations for people to adapt to new realities.  It's been shown that better education reduces birth rates, anyway.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 05:47:36 PM »
In a predominantly agricultural society, a large family means that you have more people to deal with the crops/livestock.  As a result, you have the ability to manage more crops/livestock (climate willing), and the ability to make more money.  I live near families like this.

It's when you have those eight children and two adults crammed into a three-room apartment that it becomes a problem rather than a help.

Offline TheLegionary

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Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 11:21:43 PM »
Well, assuming the US army has taken over the airport and is not allowing any help but that from America to land in Haiti, I think France is correct when it suggested having a conference. I am not sure whether Fox News said that one airplane of les medicins sans frontieres could not land in Haiti when there was space in the airport, just because some American planes would be arriving in 6 hours...
As a non-American, I am critical of those who blame the US as the great satan. However, those who know a bit the history of Haiti must recognise that the US played a major role in supporting the dictatorship of Papa Doc and his son Baby Doc for more than 50 years. Development has much more to do with institutions rather than natural resources as suggested her (http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=4776).
Of course, every help is welcome and I believe this kind of criticism of France is pointless. France has its own idiosyncrasies but I do not see this conference as one of them. Unless you believe the way Mr Bush ruined 100 years of American reputation in the international arena was appropriate.

Hehehe... everyone else is in there with their sleeves rolled up, while France is 'having a conference'

Jokes aside, I'm pretty ignorant to this... all I know is an island had an earthquake recently o.O I don't get much international news, but I do hear very stupid people saying that drifting ice berg sightings, hurricane katrina, New Orleans flooding, and now Haiti's earthquake are all signs of 2012...

Offline Noelle

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2010, 11:50:06 PM »
Haiti has generally seen more governmental turmoil than the DR, if my history is correct. They've had a ridiculous amount of coups against the government and France wasn't especially kind to them in terms of handing over their sovereignty. Add in inter-island wars between Haiti and the DR, a natural climate that is more favorable to crops in the DR and essentially cockblocks Haiti from getting the right precipitation, and it's no wonder they've been a generally downtrodden population for a few hundred years.

Can Haiti survive? That's kind of a silly question. Of course they will, if by 'survive' you mean 'continue to exist'. The earthquake didn't magically kill every Haitian or ruin their desire to live in their country. In fact, their odds of "survival" are probably better now than they ever have been. It's a morbid way to see it, but it was probably going to take a relative disaster like this to somewhat level the field between the rich and poor, not to mention shake the rest of the world into paying the island any attention.

Offline Kotah

Re: Can Haiti Survive?
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2010, 03:03:07 AM »
It's very true. Haiti has had political unrest for years and years. The way it tends to unfold, well, the majority has an uprising where they want to change and make it better. Then, unfortunately, richer countries do things to ambush them.

They had a coup not that long back, where one section of the military more or less went around killing people that voted against their leader, and raped a large portion female population. I referenced it in the past. I think it's some 40% of women between the ages of 8 and 82 were raped by military and police forces. Note this wasn't some evil communist coup, this was actually a coup to stop the socialist movement that was forming.

With all the unrest, it would be kinda hard for them to keep their shit together. Seriously. Think of trying to build a ginger bread house, and a 2 year old is hovering and waiting just to push it over.

As for the reproduction thing... It's true. The more babies you have, the greater chance one of them might survive into adult hood. They also can get jobs, and help support the family, work in the fields, ect. It happens in every country. It even happens in the US as well. Also, it does not always mean low intelligence to have a lot of kids. Sometimes that's just the way it happens.

Dude, my grandfather (father) was the second youngest of 12 sons. My grandmother (father) was the oldest of 8. My grandfather (mother) was youngest of 10. My grandmother (mother) was the middle child in 6.

I'm the youngest of 7, and my husband is the youngest of 7. I have 46 first cousins. 2 surgeons, 15 RNs, 7 LPNs, 5 CNAs, 1 doctor, 4 Computer programmers, 1 teacher (computer science), 5 Farmers. All of us are also in the process of having children ourselves, considering that I am the youngest member of my generation as far as my family goes. Were not rich by any means, but every one of us gets by on our own.

My family could run a small hospital. >.>