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Author Topic: Treason or Not?  (Read 1020 times)

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Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Treason or Not?
« on: January 20, 2010, 12:25:25 AM »
Okay.. I mentioned the Valerie Plame case to a friend tonight. One who is a much more conservative and 'loyal republican' than me. (ie.. someone who votes the ticket no matter what).

The issue I have is as a member of the American Forces with a clearance (Secret and higher) I could be tried for treason for disclosing with little recourse while whoever did it in the white house back in 02'-'03 got away with little or nothing

Depending if you believe that Scooter Libby did it.

I pointed out a little fact that most folks don't consider when the case is brought up. Valerie Plame was a NOC agent (No Official Cover) and that meant her job was to get info in 'less than legal ways' and 'recruit field assetts.' (IE convince others to spy for the US)

When her name came up, it was very likely given some of the countries she had visitd since she came to the CIA rounded up everyone she'd ever talked to and tortured them. Even odds anyone found guilty of working with her could have been quietly shot in the head.

My question is, is the revelation of a NOC agent 'small business' like some republicans said it was during the investigation or is it treason?

If I can go to prison for 20 years for mentioning "x" in relation to the right equipment, how long should a guy who outed a for real spy.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 07:53:30 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Vekseid

Re: Treason or Not?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2010, 07:13:22 PM »
Yes, I fully believe it's treason. There is literally a faction of nutjobs that controls a significant fraction of the Republican party, as well as a good chunk of the Democratic, and they are the greatest threat this nation has ever faced, because they claim to be American while they actively and willfully destroy it from the inside.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 04:42:31 PM by Vekseid »

Offline Bayushi

Re: Treason or Not?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2010, 11:32:42 AM »
Yes, I fully believe it's treason. There is literally a faction of nutjobs that controls a significant fraction of the Republican party, as well as a good chunk of the Democratic, and they are the greatest threat this nation has ever faced, because they claim to be American while they actively and willfully destroy it from the inside.

Thank you, Veks. I have never before agreed more with you on any subject than I do with this.

I have been 'accused' of being a Republican. I am not... obviously, I'm gay, and a woman... neither of which should be expected to be Republican.

The sad truth is that it seems that the two major parties have been hijacked(internationalists/socialists/international banking cabal/Israel Firsters, who knows?) and they are leading the country into ruin. While a lot of issues that come up before our governing bodies are legitimate(same sex marriage and other social issues), NONE OF THEM WILL MATTER IF WE ARE ALL BANKRUPT AND BEHOLDEN TO CORPORATE INTERESTS AND INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS.

While I try and avoid delving into conspiracy theories and the like, there are a lot of things that America needs to do to get out of all of this.

  • Reimplementing the Gold Standard
The use of the US Dollar as the world standard currency has allowed for nations in dispute with the US and its policies to abuse the dollar's standing.
  • Withdraw from the United Nations
The United Nations seems to be pushing towards a one-world government, which is in contradiction to the American Constitution, particularly where the United States is an independent republic.
  • Tell China to stop intentionally devaluing their currency or they can go F- themselves
China's little game to make it so that we end up paying that much more in debt to them.
  • Get out of Iraq
No brainer?
  • Stop worrying wtf France thinks about us
Seriously? The limp-wristed pansies(not saying all of the French are, but seems that their governing body is) is irrelevant. Why do we care?
  • Reindustrialize the nation
We wouldn't be in the current predicament now if we hadn't shipped all our industrial work to China and India.
  • Tell the Enviro-nuts to go F- themselves
AGW is a farce. Yes, the climate is changing. Yes, the climate has always been changing. There isn't a damn thing we can do about it. While there are good things about caring for our environment, under no circumstances should we put the environment before the people. The environment isn't a citizen of this nation, the people are.[/list]

Mind you all, these are simply my opinions, and are not being presented as absolute facts. If you want to discuss them, go for it. But please keep in mind that you likely also do not have the 'facts', as everything in the political field is opinion, not fact.
[/end Vekseidish Logical Fallacy disclaimer] :P

Offline Jude

Re: Treason or Not?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2010, 03:59:49 PM »
Yes, I fully believe it's treason. There is literally a faction of nutjobs that controls a significant fraction of the Republican party, as well as a good chunk of the Democratic, and they are the greatest threat this nation has ever faced, because they claim to be American while they actively and willfully destroy it from the inside.
What people are you referring to?  This sounds like a baseless, borderline conspiracy theory.  Even if you could show that there are people in both political parties exerting subtle influence, you'd have to prove that they're doing it specifically to harm the country (which is nearly impossible).  It was an implausible statement before you threw the term willfully in there.

That isn't to say that if you have any reliable sources that you've built this thesis on, I wouldn't love to see that information.
The sad truth is that it seems that the two major parties have been hijacked(internationalists/socialists/international banking cabal/Israel Firsters, who knows?) and they are leading the country into ruin.
Seems based on what?  Again, you can think the two parties are damaging the country and causing problems.  I'm with you there.  They are doing a terrible job of running things, but it's the claim of something sinister and willful that makes statements like that ridiculous.
While a lot of issues that come up before our governing bodies are legitimate(same sex marriage and other social issues), NONE OF THEM WILL MATTER IF WE ARE ALL BANKRUPT AND BEHOLDEN TO CORPORATE INTERESTS AND INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS.
Ah the famed, "America's Sovereignty is under attack" dogma.
Reimplementing the Gold Standard
Leaving the government with very little control over monetary policy.  There's a reason we switched off of the gold standard.  The value of the U.S. dollar isn't in decline because there are evil internationalists attacking us, it's because America's relative power is declining.  Economic and otherwise, as other places around the world advance, by comparison we will be lessened.  That's just how it is.  Everyone else will not remain in the dark ages forever.
The United Nations seems to be pushing towards a one-world government, which is in contradiction to the American Constitution, particularly where the United States is an independent republic.
The United Nations does like to make demands on particular governments and has asked us to do certain things that we didn't want to do.  We never listened to them before, so why do you think we're going to start doing it now?  They have absolutely no real power or authority, they simply exist as a basis for international diplomatic efforts and a stage for member nations (which actually do have power) to band together to exercise it.  The U.N. is nothing more than the podium, it's the speakers that have the power.  But if you have any evidence to support your theory that they're going to eventually overtake us, or somehow force us into a one world government, then present it.
Tell China to stop intentionally devaluing their currency or they can go F- themselves
I'm with you here.  There is plenty of evidence that they've been doing this.
Get out of Iraq
It's not like we're... in the process... of doing this... or anything.
Stop worrying wtf France thinks about us
Yeah, who cares what our allies think!  We can piss off any other nation that we like for the hell of it then laugh in their faces and suffer absolutely no consequences!  USA, USA, USA.
We wouldn't be in the current predicament now if we hadn't shipped all our industrial work to China and India.
That would be nice.  So uh, how exactly do we go about doing this?  There's a reason why the work went overseas, it's because they're willing to do it much cheaper than Americans.  The cost of living is much lower over there, so it will always be cheaper to have them manufacture it and then to ship it off over here.  Unless you're advocating moving towards communist and cutting off economic ties, those Industrial jobs were forever lost to the Global Capitalist Market.
AGW is a farce. Yes, the climate is changing. Yes, the climate has always been changing. There isn't a damn thing we can do about it. While there are good things about caring for our environment, under no circumstances should we put the environment before the people. The environment isn't a citizen of this nation, the people are.
It's possible that the risk global warming poses is overblown or that there's nothing we can do about it.  It's even possible that humans aren't the cause of the warming.  But the opposite is also possible and far more likely ( as it is supported by the vast majority of research and scientific organizations).  Perhaps your reading of the evidence, literature, and data has led you to that conclusion, but the certainty in which you hold your conclusions is entirely irrational.  Especially the fraud statement, whenever someone talks in such black and white language on the subject of global warming, they expose themselves to be practically religious about the subject matter.
Mind you all, these are simply my opinions, and are not being presented as absolute facts. If you want to discuss them, go for it. But please keep in mind that you likely also do not have the 'facts', as everything in the political field is opinion, not fact.
[/end Vekseidish Logical Fallacy disclaimer] :P
Calling something a fraud is presenting it as an absolute fact.  If you wanted to present it as an opinion, you would say, "I think Global Warming is a fraud," or, "I don't think the evidence supports Global Warming as strongly as the scientific communist claims it does."  Your choice of language was strong and certain throughout, which really makes you look like a conspiracy theorist (which ironically I think you were trying to avoid).

On the subject of the CIA leak, I don't think it qualifies as treason, but nor do I think a soldier should be considered treasonous for mentioning something as trivial as you mentioned Callie.  In my view, Treason is doing something fairly dramatic that knowingly hurts your country in exchange for personal gain.  I don't think Scooter Libby or whoever outed Valerie Plame did it with the specific intention of hurting America.  Should they be prosecuted and punished to the fullest extent of the law?  Yes, but declared treasonous?  In my opinion, proving treason should be every bit as difficult as proving libel and slander.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 04:01:44 PM by Jude »

Offline consortium11

Re: Treason or Not?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2010, 04:41:57 PM »
Hijack/Off-topic.

The US really isn't in a position to force China to do anything (at least in economic terms). If China simply stops buying Treasuries then to a certain extent the wheels come off... a large amount of US spending is based upon other countries (of which none are bigger than China) purchase of T-Bills and T-Bonds.

/Hijack

Offline Arhys

Re: Treason or Not?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2010, 10:17:36 AM »
Outing Plame was just an outrageous act, in every way.  Absolutely treasonous, it's a pity nothing more came from it.

Offline BlindEye

Re: Treason or Not?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2010, 09:17:54 PM »
I agree that the outing of Valerie Plame's identity did constitute treason, too bad the people who gave the order to do it will never see justice.  I was raised in a pretty conservative household, but I'm ashamed of what the Republican party has become, and what it has done.  In my opinion we went from being "the stuffy but serious" party to "the religious wackjob and corporate thug" party.   >:(

Offline Bayushi

Re: Treason or Not?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2010, 03:40:31 PM »
I agree that the outing of Valerie Plame's identity did constitute treason, too bad the people who gave the order to do it will never see justice.  I was raised in a pretty conservative household, but I'm ashamed of what the Republican party has become, and what it has done.  In my opinion we went from being "the stuffy but serious" party to "the religious wackjob and corporate thug" party.   >:(

My problem is that even the more balanced(not Moderate, mind you) Republicans seem to pander to the extremists. Particularly the Religious extremists.

Unfortunately, this is also seems to be the case with the Democrat party, aside from the 'Blue Dogs', maybe. Albeit their pandering appears to veer towards the anti-religious nuts and Corporate America... since the MONEY(mind you, the single most important factor in all of this, since money = power in today's world) comes from the Corporations now.

If it were not for the hypocrisy that has apparently taken over the Republican party, I would be a Republican. I detest the 'Faith based' this or 'Moral Crusade' that. Republicans were supposed to be conservatives... Liberty, Justice, Defense, and sound Fiscal Policy. We saw little of this in the last eight years of GW Bush, unfortunately, and it seems to have tainted the party(and government in general) in an unpleasant way.