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Author Topic: Monotheistic religions disturb me.  (Read 4154 times)

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Offline AjoxerTopic starter

Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« on: May 17, 2006, 03:56:24 PM »
First of all, most of them go for the " Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent." I argue that, as the world contains evil, there can be no all-powerful, all-seeing, and all-loving god, because why let a creature make mistakes, hurting itself, when you have the power to always help it whenever it needs, the moment it needs it? Letting it learn for itself, while it may seem better, creates far more net suffering. Thus, God or whoever else is lacking in one of these qualities.

Another thing is, if there is some omnipotent deity, what's to keep him from getting bored and swatting us like collective flies? Gods have no reason to be nice- The only reason we ever act kind is because we have a society that imposes these morals, because we know that if we do not follow them we will be in personal danger. A god, particularly an omnipotent one, would be the equivelant of a spoiled brat with the command of the entire world upon them.

The whole tihng doesn't work for me. My parents are both technically catholic, but they both found themselves unable to believe in Catholic religion as much as they grew older. My father became a man of science in the most intense way- He's easily the most atheistic man I have ever met, fully satisfied with living a single life as long as he has left a decent son behind, and feels he's made the world a bit better. My mother, on the other hand, is a very spiritual person, but chooses to believe that anything can be, not simply in a single religion.

I'm a tad conflicted, but...

Why do you believe in a monotheistic religion? Or not, as the case may be?

Offline Hunter

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2006, 04:56:47 PM »
First of all, most of them go for the " Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent." I argue that, as the world contains evil, there can be no all-powerful, all-seeing, and all-loving god, because why let a creature make mistakes, hurting itself, when you have the power to always help it whenever it needs, the moment it needs it? Letting it learn for itself, while it may seem better, creates far more net suffering. Thus, God or whoever else is lacking in one of these qualities.

It's usually refered to as "free will".  Without it, we become nothing more than robots or computers who simply do whatever we've been programmed to do.  A loving God, from a Christian perspective anyways, allows us to make mistakes and is willing to let us choose not to be with him.  Helps?

Offline National Acrobat

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Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2006, 05:04:37 PM »
Plus, to add to that, sometimes it's the messenger delivering the message, in a manner that is not consistent with the overall message of a religion, that distorts or clouds the picture.

People interpret words differently, even using the same sources of inspiration.

Offline Lilac

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2006, 05:06:27 PM »
It's usually refered to as "free will".  Without it, we become nothing more than robots or computers who simply do whatever we've been programmed to do.  A loving God, from a Christian perspective anyways, allows us to make mistakes and is willing to let us choose not to be with him.  Helps?

What, exactly, is free will?

Does it mean that given the exact same conditions, including memories, you will choose a different course each time?

How can it work?

Offline Hunter

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2006, 05:08:56 PM »
What, exactly, is free will?

Does it mean that given the exact same conditions, including memories, you will choose a different course each time?

How can it work?

You can choose a different course.  You're not fixed to one particular course of action no matter what.  For example, I could suddenly choose to shave my head and join a monastery (not likely to happen, mind you).  It's my choice.

Offline Lilac

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2006, 05:11:32 PM »
You can choose a different course.  You're not fixed to one particular course of action no matter what.  For example, I could suddenly choose to shave my head and join a monastery (not likely to happen, mind you).  It's my choice.

How do you come to that decision, or your decision to avoid it?

Offline Hunter

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2006, 05:12:10 PM »
How do you come to that decision, or your decision to avoid it?

The same way everyone else does.

Offline Jefepato

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2006, 05:17:06 PM »
Why do you believe in a monotheistic religion? Or not, as the case may be?

I do not, because I see no reason to.

I was raised Christian, but I'd been having doubts for as long as I can remember (age 4 or so).  Eventually when I finally went to a public school and was exposed to people who weren't religious for the first time, I stopped and asked myself "would this stuff make any sense at all if I hadn't been raised with it?"

I decided the answer was no, and I haven't believed a word of it since.  As far as I'm concerned, if there's a god out there, he's probably laughing at me.

Offline Lilac

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2006, 05:36:34 PM »
The same way everyone else does.

By evaluating knowledge and experience at hand...  just like a robot of sufficient complexity?

Offline Hunter

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2006, 06:21:31 PM »
By evaluating knowledge and experience at hand...  just like a robot of sufficient complexity?

If I can choose something that's contrary to my "programming" does that make me a robot?

Offline Nothing

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2006, 06:34:26 PM »
I went to a logic class in college one, discussing the philosophy of religion....quite an interesting class..
Anyways, almost this very argument came up.
How can an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful god exist while his subjects have free will?
How can god know what we're going to do (thus being all knowing, all seeing of the past, present and future) if we're free to choose something contradictory to his path for us?
When we do choose, is it really contradictory, or is that what he had planned all along for us and we're simply following the program?
What if he says we're going to do something and we end up not doing it? Does this prove god wrong, thus denying his existence, or is it that he knew we weren't going to do it and lied to us?

Personally, I was raised in an athiest house, both of my parents being raised christian and deciding against it later. So, I don't believe in god, never have, never will and I don't see how anyone else can either...
But, I understand the concept of it...
People need religion, pure and simple...it gives them something to believe in, something to lean on, a scapegoat or someone to turn to when things go wrong...It's a crutch, it gives them hope, gives them a reason to live, a reason to keep on going, knowing that one day this all powerful being will save them from this wretched planet and take them somewhere lovely..
People can choose to believe in god, or choose not to...I don't really care, it's up to them and it's a personal choice...I just choose not to :)

Offline Lilac

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2006, 06:51:58 PM »
If I can choose something that's contrary to my "programming" does that make me a robot?

That's just it, you never do.  Something causes you to do it.  For whatever reason, you evaluate your future and decide, through one logic or another, faulty or not, a new course of action.  It may be different than what some external observers may expect, but no external observer can know every last detail of your brain - it's functionally impossible.

Have you truly never had a reason behind a decision?  Even a random decision has a reason behind the randomness.

Offline King_Furby

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2006, 08:32:52 PM »
Personally when i find something that disturbs me i just turn my head and go on with my business.

I don't let other types of Religions bother me as I stick to what i believe in and thats all i have to do.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2006, 08:34:31 PM »
See, I say to each their own, right up to the point that they start spending my tax money to further their own interests *sigh*

Offline AjoxerTopic starter

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2006, 04:50:34 PM »
I agree to what Lilac is saying- Under any given set of circumstances, a person will always act the same, I think. The problem, of course, being the incredible number of variables... Even if you choose to do something different, that's still being influenced...

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2006, 02:14:16 PM »
Well I'm religious and a deist as I believe in a higher power but this is the bad thing about organized religions they try to BOX and CATALOG this power. I tend to see in nature good things and bad things so think such a power cannot be all powerful or necessarily active in peoples lives openly but rather is there helping humanity and everything along. Does that make sense?  ???

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Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2006, 02:19:18 PM »
It makes perfect sense. The problem with organized religion is that they expect you to follow their tenets, and will state their way is the only way, even among their own faith (i.e. the differing sects of Islam or differing branches of Protestantism).

This is limiting and controlling at the same time, and in many cases, goes against the very principles that the religion is supposed to teach and have practiced.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2006, 09:57:24 PM »
I loved the film DOGMA actually you get a belief its hard to change so focus on good IDEAS about religion and hope the higher power lets me in on their design. I use a term I heard in a movie where a woman called that the "Creative Power of the Universe" I happen to like that term for this being. I was raised a Quaker and we have many different beliefs from Bible believing Christians to New Agers and Wiccans to Deists like myself. We feel the guiding power passes to us continuing teachings of the Truth and based on our ability to reason and apply that knowledge.

Why go to other sources for the truth speak to the Creative Power yourself and get rid of the middle man simply put.

Offline Hunter

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2006, 05:38:30 PM »
See, I say to each their own, right up to the point that they start spending my tax money to further their own interests *sigh*

The only problem with that argument, my dear, is that the school system is also to further someone's interests (and not yours).  Which is why most people who learn to think usually do so either in college or afterwords.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2006, 06:18:35 PM »
Thank the Creative Power I was born into a Quaker family we were encouraged to think freely and question, care for others and make the world better place for being here as our conscious guides us.

Offline AjoxerTopic starter

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2006, 05:37:30 PM »
My BIGGEST problem with religion is the idea that there's a creature that much more powerful than me out there. By gum, I'll show God who's boss! * shakes fist.*

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2006, 06:10:51 PM »
I think that any guilt based religion is disturbing.  It gives people an out, a way to avoid taking direct responsibility for their actions, and the idea that humans are flawed from conception allows excuses to be made for errors of judgement.  Removing the guru makes people much more directly responsible for their actions and consequences, in my humble opinion.

And the idea that you can say X number of Hail Mary's and be forgiven is appalling to me.

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Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2006, 08:07:21 PM »
The thing that disturbs me about many religious is the notion that you are born already guilty of sinning.

I'm sorry but I don't buy the fact that simply by being born you are already in need of being saved from something. That concept is just very disturbing to me, and shows the urge for controlling people by whatever faith practices such a silly notion.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2006, 10:51:40 AM »
I don't get the entire Sin thing myself. I seriously believe regardless of how evil you are the Creative Power will bring you back to it even if your Hitler or Stalin evil is a silly idea. I feel there is good the positive and negative in nature and in its wisdom sometimes a great evil arises so does great good. Examples: We had Hitler but at the same time Ghandi. Two great men with different roles in the circle of existance. I figure if your sorry for doing wrong that is in your heart and shared with the wronged party, groveling to anyone priest or mullah is not necessary. The Creative Power is far beyond the comprehension of a mere mortal we can see it in the shadow of its greatness not in its truth as we are limited.

Ok I guess this sounds crazy to many of you.

Offline AjoxerTopic starter

Re: Monotheistic religions disturb me.
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2006, 09:02:02 PM »
Eh, most religions sound crazy, but yours is a nice kind of crazy- If I were going to be crazy, I'd want to be your kind of crazy. ;D