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Author Topic: Fundamentalist extremists  (Read 2374 times)

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Offline KotahTopic starter

Fundamentalist extremists
« on: October 23, 2009, 02:24:37 PM »
Fundamentalist extremists- how do we address this problem? In some of the debates recently it has come down to the extremists. Those stupid people that don't want to admit they are wrong. The ones that are just waiting to screw up their own lives and the lives of everyone around them.

People barging into a doctors home because they misunderstand something so simple.
People killing little boys for having sex with a girl friend.
Abortion clinic bombings.
Burning bibles.
Allowing the rape of women.
Boys crucified for their choice of sexual preference.
Racism.
Sexism.

How do we address those problems?  What do we do to stop these things from happening? I mean, wouldn't the world be safer without these people? I hardly thing genocide is an answer. On either front. How do we deal with this in today's world? It would seem we haven't fully addressed these problems.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2009, 02:46:47 PM »
Here is one that has me wondering..

Does shooting down a doctor in the foyer of his church for conducting abortions count as:

A. Murder plain and simple, nothing more
B. An act of domestic terrorism AND murder
C. A hate crime and murder
D. All of the above?

Offline All Powerful Nateboi

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2009, 04:20:19 PM »
Here is one that has me wondering..

Does shooting down a doctor in the foyer of his church for conducting abortions count as:

A. Murder plain and simple, nothing more
B. An act of domestic terrorism AND murder
C. A hate crime and murder
D. All of the above?

Part of me wants to say all of the above. But I'm not clear "Doctor" falls into a federally recognized group for that. It's definately an act of domestic terrorism.

However, as we all know, any person committing an act of terrorism is clearly just a single crazed person acting completely by themselves with absolutely no input from any other source.

As long as they're white.

Offline Serephino

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2009, 04:43:02 PM »
I for one am extremely tired of extremists.  Is it just me or does there recently seem to be more of them?  My extremist Christian acquaintance did make one good point; the world has gone crazy.

I guess the best way to deal with them is to ignore them and not give them the attention and validation they want.  I think the world really would be better off without them, but murder is illegal, so unfortunately that isn't an option.     

Offline All Powerful Nateboi

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2009, 04:44:54 PM »
Yeah, I think the problem isn't that there's more of them. I think the problem is that, because of the 24 hour news cycle, they get a lot more attention. Because the media needs to put on *something*, because they've got twenty four hours worth of information to fill, plus websites, plus up to the minute twitters, and hey, here's some crazy people!


Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2009, 04:51:11 PM »
Part of me wants to say all of the above. But I'm not clear "Doctor" falls into a federally recognized group for that. It's definately an act of domestic terrorism.

However, as we all know, any person committing an act of terrorism is clearly just a single crazed person acting completely by themselves with absolutely no input from any other source.

As long as they're white.

The act in question happened a few months ago. All the guy has gotten so far is Murder. No hate, no terrorism.. simply Murder. (Sigh..to say 'simply' in this case is kind of scary.)

I'm refering to the late Dr. George Tiller. When the news hit I actually heard someone in the store say 'Good'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

Offline All Powerful Nateboi

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2009, 04:58:58 PM »
The act in question happened a few months ago. All the guy has gotten so far is Murder. No hate, no terrorism.. simply Murder. (Sigh..to say 'simply' in this case is kind of scary.)

I'm refering to the late Dr. George Tiller. When the news hit I actually heard someone in the store say 'Good'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

I knew what you were talkinug about. That's why I made the comment about 'clearly one crazed individual working completely by himself for on real discernable reason" comment.

It was terrorism, he was pushed on by anti-abortion groups and talking heads saying things like 'Tiller the baby-killer', but for some reason he's "just" a murderer.

Offline Kate

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2009, 02:27:15 AM »
I think the only way to solve these problems
is for society to be actively interested and concerned with the emotional development of individuals - while instilling that ALL conscious life is an individual, they dont have to be human nor that comparatively intelligent, and as a rule of thumb you have to think

"If that was me would i like this happened to me ? if the answer is no - then that's a ethical reason not to do it"

People don't go around killing others if they are otherwise happy, even if they beleive they should all die, those that beleive so and so should die AND are unhappy with their life and need to "Vent" ... or "resolve things the hard way".. do.

People who resort to terrorism are desperate, hard principals come when soft options are gone in my opinion.

Religious extremists are awkwardly different, I think education of some of the evils each religion has been done in it's name may help

(and a focus on religions that have had nothing done badly in their name would be fascinating)

If what the crusades did to persia was very carefully explained to all
essays in school about

"Were they justified ? If there is a god as the Christians speak of would it be pleased with the crusaders actions ? How would you stop those doing so if they believed NOT doing it would ensure eternal damnation ?"
 you can sort of hope the school system can at least moderate some views.

None of us should give up hope, in 2-4 generations it may be that systematic slavery of peoples could be eliminated, something civilisation has not seen before, thats a big step.



Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 02:10:31 PM »
I do agree that attention how people develop emotionally is very important - in this matter and in many other.
It's somewhat ironic though that religion can also do that. Religions throughout history had people attempt to use them to spread hate, but also to effect emotional development of others in good ways.
I think that struggles between benelovent and extreme adherents of creeds are almost as important as the overall struggle to keep religion and state separate - at least in practical terms. Priests condemning religious killing can improve things more immidiately than external pressure.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 02:12:01 PM by Celestial Goblin »

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 05:47:41 PM »
The act in question happened a few months ago. All the guy has gotten so far is Murder. No hate, no terrorism.. simply Murder. (Sigh..to say 'simply' in this case is kind of scary.)

In my book, that's all it should take to earn someone a noose.  First-degree murder, with no history that would in any way justify or mitigate it.  You kill an innocent in cold blood, you get the death penalty.

I can go for some leniency if there's a history between the people in question.  John Doe catches Steve in bed with his wife, and hunts Steven down and settles the score.  Should John walk?  Absolutely not; he's still committed a very serious crime which deserves stern punishment.  But I don't think he deserves the ultimate punishment, since it was a crime of passion.  I would say ten to fifteen years for that. 

But I'm not a believer in all these "enhancements" to crimes.  A group of white punks kidnaps a black man and drags him to death behind a pickup truck?  Murder of an innocent in cold blood: they hang.  'Nuff said.

Offline All Powerful Nateboi

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 06:11:14 PM »
YOu're kind of looking at two different things there, though.

The problem with Dr. Tiller's murder, and the problem with a group of white thugs killing a black guy, is that they're *not* just murders.

They are messages.

The guy who killed Dr. Tiller was saying to all people who would perform abortions "Hey, if you do this, you'll be murdered!"

Just like the white thugs who killed a black kid were saying to all black kids "We'll kill you for being black, so watch out!".

It's terrorism, by the very real definition. It's a crime that's not only taking out a specific person, but attempting to strike terror in a group.

Offline KotahTopic starter

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 08:28:32 PM »
I have another question.

Are shock tactics used by organizations any better then the terrorist actions used by others. Assuming that all religion is a form of organization anyway (for that section).

Is it really alright to focus shock tactics on children?

Offline Merlyn

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2009, 10:38:48 PM »
IMHO organized religion is going to be the downfall of 'civilized' humanity.  But that is a bit off topic, especially since you do not have to be religious to be an extremist.

Extremist are there because they work. 
They get their message across, and people pay attention to it. 
If you kill them, they have turned into a martyr for their cause that is willing to do anything, including die for what they stand for.
If you kill them all for being extremists you are yourself in turn becoming an extremist believing that all extremists need to be killed, much like all abortionists need to be killed etc...  (And please note this is not genocide, unless you consider all extremists to be in the same racial or cultural group which is certainly not the case.)
So are you going to kill yourself, or force someone else to thereby creating an infinite loop of extremist murdering extremists?

As for emotional development that does not have much of anything to do with it.  If you are unhappy you have many choices.
1.You can deal with it and be unhappy.
2.You can seek professional help.
3.You can kill yourself.
4.You can kill others and essentially either commit suicide by cop or spend time in prison.
Now, that is only a few of many possible options.  So, how do emotions control what decision you should make?  That is more determined by reason, and moral views than by emotion.  If you think it is reasonable and not so immoral that it can not be done, then you may choose option 4. 
Now many would say 'But you wouldn't think that was reasonable and moral enough if you were entirely emotionally developed.'  Why not?  Because your views and beliefs that you care about enough to die for should be controlled because of the fact that a emotionally developed person should feel enough empathy to not kill.
But everything regarding peoples thoughts, feelings, and views are relative to that person.  So as many may see it as ridiculous, others see it as correct because the ' evil abortionist' murdered a child over and over and well, you get the point.

Now, as for the argument of if it was the other way around would you want it to happen that is also a very relative position.  I say this because I have actually answered that exact question in a way in which people do not believe me.  I support hunting, not for simple sadistic sport, or what can end up being corralling animals so that you can kill them.  But for the fact that it helps control population, which needs to be done due to humans screwing up the delicate balance of the planets ecosystem.  I have been asked many times 'If it was the other way around, and a deer was given a gun and said they were hunting you to control the population would you put up with it (or like it or anything to that effect).'  My answer is Yes.  If it ends up getting something good, or helping evolution then yes, why not.  Everyone and everything needs to die some time.

Now OldSchoolGamer, what if there is a reason to justify why they committed a random killing.  (Which is the only way in which you would truly have a innocent cold blooded murder with no reasons as to why.) 
What if say in the instance of a man killing an abortionist he did so because he had lost a possible son because the woman who he impregnated had an abortion.  He did not know who the doctor was, so he killed a random doctor that was a public figure.

Or in the view of your race related crime example, what if one of the 'white thugs' had a sister who had been raped by a black man, and he believed that it was that man or someone he was involved with.  Or simply snapped and began believing that all black men are rapists.  Although an incorrect and misguided view, he believes it to be true and thus has a motive.

Murders are almost never random, and when they are they are either in self defense or accidents.

As for what we can do about extremists, there is nothing. 
Unfortunately someone will always be willing to do anything for what they believe.  Especially in the USA since that is how our country was founded.  By people standing up for what they believe in.  And no it's not the same thing.  But by people who are willing to risk their lives for their beliefs it is. 

The only ways that it could possibly be stopped would be for people to become suddenly apathetic about what others do.  Or for there to be such a highly unimaginably devastating punishment that no one would ever be willing to risk it.  Until some one does at which point you will end up needed something worse because more will follow by the thought that "if he can suffer that for what he believes so can I." 

And as I stated earlier doesn't that just turn you into what you are fighting?  Some that is so fundamentally against something, someone, or some group that they are willing to do anything, including destroy others in unimaginable ways.  Such as blowing someone apart with an IED.

Offline Kate

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2009, 04:12:56 AM »
Religion is just a school of thought on spirituality, making sense of the intangible, faith in one of them is simply that
strong faith is conviction. It could be said that many beleiving science holds the answers could be "religious about science, or mathematics etc, science and math are models to represent our experience, religions are another and many overlap, when they don't agree some have "issues".

Cultural laws is another. Some may believe in them so strongly they beleive those that do this or that should be subjected to the full power of the law.

Associating identity in the stances represented by any of them are choices, subjective choices.

"Extremist are there because they work.
They get their message across, and people pay attention to it.
If you kill them, they have turned into a martyr for their cause that is willing to do anything, including die for what they stand for.
If you kill them all for being extremists you are yourself in turn becoming an extremist believing that all extremists need to be killed, much like all abortionists need to be killed etc...  (And please note this is not genocide, unless you consider all extremists to be in the same racial or cultural group which is certainly not the case.)
So are you going to kill yourself, or force someone else to thereby creating an infinite loop of extremist murdering extremists?"
- M

- I disagree, germany became "extreme" because germany itself was being subsagated to extreme conditions the rest of the world imposed on that country after WWI, trying to be happy living under them was impossible, they sort and found extreme options because no soft easy ones to maintain happiness existed.

Hitler was a masterful speaker - he emotively united the thoughts of many, he appealed to repression of his countrymen, they felt hope in freedom from conditions, a unity was born.

 After WWII the allies realized their mistake  and realized the easist way for germany / japan to stop be a threat in the future is to try and get along with them (pity they didnt realise it was true for all peoples and countries then and there ... but they are only just realising this now... hopefully not too late).

AFTER WWII anti-racism, anti-discrimination rules became the norm in many countries, these actions did solve some "extremism"  from being able to appear and grow with such strength.

Before WWI and WWII, racism, bigotry was the norm. (Even after WWII it was still culturally acceptable in normal society (some of the first walt Disney cartoons are incredibly racist)

"As for emotional development that does not have much of anything to do with it.  If you are unhappy you have many choices. ... So, how do emotions control what decision you should make?  That is more determined by reason, and moral views than by emotion.  " - M

I don't think reason determines actions as much as you think. If logic did, we would all be SUPER FIT, STUDY alot when we were in school, eat perfect balanced meals, keep perfect dairies, always pay the cheapest and environmentally friendly items for anything ... etc.

Nice looking car ? Logically is it worth the money ? if it solves or elevates and EMOTIONAL state it is logically justified from the landscape of returns money gives what your trying to optimise (short term medium term or long term happiness )

People don't commit adultury or get pregant when they are teens for logical reasons, nor for reasons that go WITH their current understanding of reason or values, neither do they do it because they are stupid or uneducated.

If your feeling energetic you may go for a run, if your feeling lazy you don't, if your feeling angry you don't go around appreciating butterflies, when your feeling happy you don't pick fights in aggressive manners for un-justified reasons. If a wife is feeling bitter or angry or betrayed or something - her inclinations to have sex with who she believes is the cause is less, it is not because she reasons things though and chooses to obstain to prove a point ( although she may - usually however the cause of her actions if she chooses this option due to emotions (Her not wanting to ) not calculated scheming (returns of power games) )

People don't try and climb dangerous mountains because its logical, you may say "well it is logical if you want excitement or feel like being famous or restlessness or want to impress a woman or want to explore or do something new "

... then your RIGHT ! It is logical - from an EMOTIVE landscape.

human behavior is semi-optimized actions chosen to MOVE within an emotion or advance an emotional state one is currently experiencing.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 04:31:03 AM by Kate »

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2009, 08:16:01 AM »
As for emotional development that does not have much of anything to do with it.  If you are unhappy you have many choices.
1.You can deal with it and be unhappy.
2.You can seek professional help.
3.You can kill yourself.
4.You can kill others and essentially either commit suicide by cop or spend time in prison.
Unhappiness is an emotional state, so promoting positive emotional development has,well, everything to do with this. Positive emotional development means one that leads to happiness rather than unhappiness, of course. Not that other ways of preventing unhappiness are less important, of course.

Also, proffesional help is too a part of 'paying attention to emotional development', just more like repairing and remodeling than building.

Now, that is only a few of many possible options.  So, how do emotions control what decision you should make?  That is more determined by reason, and moral views than by emotion.
Moral views one adapts have much grounding in emotional make-up of the person. Certain emotions can push a person towards extremism more than others, regardless of their beliefs.

But everything regarding peoples thoughts, feelings, and views are relative to that person.  So as many may see it as ridiculous, others see it as correct because the ' evil abortionist' murdered a child over and over and well, you get the point.
There's many people who believe abortion to be murder, but only few choose to act on their judgement by murder and terrorism. Same goes for pretty much every belief out there. I'm quite sure that to kill you need a combination of both a belief system and specific emotions, but also that people sooner find a belief system to match their (in this case destructive)emotions than other way around.

Offline Serephino

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2009, 11:36:43 AM »
I really don't think this is as easy as saying well, they're unhappy, or, they have screwed up logic and morals. 
 
I'm bi-polar and at times have trouble controling my emotions.  I also have a different set of morals than most people.  Do I go around murdering people?  No.  Murder is illegal and I don't see it as worth spending the rest of my life in prison.
 
There are millions of people out there who are religious.  Do they all go to the extremes of their faith?  No.  Extremists are callled that because they are not the norm.
 
Does everyone who is unhappy become an extremist?  No.  Some live with it, get professional help, or take steps to change it.
 
There isn't just one factor to someone becoming an extremist.  There are many.  I do agree that it has a lot to do with emotional stability.  In my experience, those who tend to go to religious extremes have a void in their lives that they needed to fill.  It usually involved an abusive parent.  Religion offers a way to fill that void.  The bigger the void is the more you cling to it and the easier it is to get sucked into the more radical aspects. 
 
Desperation can also be a factor.  As Kate said, Germany supported and followed a psychotic sadistst because life was not good for them.  I can't remember the exact details, but they were being punished for WWI years after the fact. 
 
From what I understand, life in the Middle East is not the best.  Many of those suicide bombers don't just do it for their God.  They also do it because they're promised that their families will be given money and be taken care of.  I'm curious about whether or not those promises are actually kept, but a lot of men seem to find it to be worth it.
 
So really, it's all about the individual's price.  If some cause is important to you, is it worth killing over?  What is said cause worth to you?  Extremists show the world what their cause means to them every day.

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Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2009, 12:12:34 PM »
Murders are almost never random, and when they are they are either in self defense or accidents.

I'd love to see the stats on this.  There are plenty of murders or attempted murders where the killer's only connection to the victim is time and place. 

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2009, 12:51:42 PM »
I don't believe emotional development to be the only or chief reason behind extremism - I mean to point out that it's not an irrelevant one. That it's something possibly overlooked comparead to more tangible influences.

Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2009, 03:05:32 PM »
I don't believe emotional development to be the only or chief reason behind extremism - I mean to point out that it's not an irrelevant one. That it's something possibly overlooked comparead to more tangible influences.

You're right, it's not so cut and dry. For example there's been more than a few people who go to prison for something, and come out as white supremacists.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2009, 03:51:41 PM »
This is a total armchair psychologist shot from the hip, but if someone gone to prison for a small crime, joined the nazis there and ended up a fanatic nazi, I'd say they were someone who had no sense in life and then felt like finding it. Exploitative cults seek out this sort of person, likely.

Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2009, 04:17:12 PM »
This is a total armchair psychologist shot from the hip, but if someone gone to prison for a small crime, joined the nazis there and ended up a fanatic nazi, I'd say they were someone who had no sense in life and then felt like finding it. Exploitative cults seek out this sort of person, likely.

True, many people who join gangs/cults do share that in common. However like I said not everything is cut and dry, and perhaps someone joins a group due to racial connections because they're being attacked for their race. In their search for protection they may end up getting indoctrinated to a certain racist belief.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2009, 03:17:55 AM »
True, many people who join gangs/cults do share that in common. However like I said not everything is cut and dry, and perhaps someone joins a group due to racial connections because they're being attacked for their race. In their search for protection they may end up getting indoctrinated to a certain racist belief.

This is especially true in American prisons.

Offline Merlyn

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2009, 02:40:35 PM »
I'd love to see the stats on this.  There are plenty of murders or attempted murders where the killer's only connection to the victim is time and place. 

Yes, but their is still a reason that the act was committed.  If it was a 'random robbery' then the offender had a reason as to why he wanted to rob someone.  If it was a random 'hate crime' then the offender had a reason as to why they hated to victim. 
There are very few ways in which something truly random can happen.  This is the way I look at it.  Not the standard, was there a connection between the perpetrator and the victim. 

Religion is just a school of thought on spirituality, making sense of the intangible, faith in one of them is simply that
strong faith is conviction. It could be said that many beleiving science holds the answers could be "religious about science, or mathematics etc, science and math are models to represent our experience, religions are another and many overlap, when they don't agree some have "issues".

This I why I specifically said 'organized religion' I do not believe that poeple that hold beliefs are going to cause the end of the world.  I believe that organizations which tell people what to believe, think, how to behave, and what is right and wrong, are a very bad thing. 
And I would like to point out something that people always yell at me for if they are in any sort of organized religion.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult
Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: \ˈkəlt\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate more at wheel
Date: 1617

1 : formal religious veneration : worship
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

I do not mean to drag this off topic, and I am not trying to turn this into debate about religion.  I just wanted to clarify my statements.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2009, 03:33:34 PM »
True, many people who join gangs/cults do share that in common. However like I said not everything is cut and dry, and perhaps someone joins a group due to racial connections because they're being attacked for their race. In their search for protection they may end up getting indoctrinated to a certain racist belief.
Hmm... painful and life-threatening situation, finding protection in an unofficial group where official ones can't provide it... I can see this seducing him into extremist beliefs, not sure if into killing, but possible.

But mechanism of becoming a nazi extremist where the whole group is extreme from get go is probably different than mechanism of becoming a religious extremist in a larger religion where the majority are not in constant siege-mentality.

By the way, I of course respect the original definition of the word 'cult', but the practical line I draw in real life is just that - wherether an organization is or is not regarding the outside world as enemy against which they need to close ranks.

Offline Jude

Re: Fundamentalist extremists
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2009, 05:50:23 PM »
The only way to combat extremism is with emotional appeal and moderation; and even then you can't reach everybody.  But the problem is more deeply rooted than that, we have a society that respects certainty and self-avowed knowledge more than honesty.

People often make statements like, "I know god exists" or "I know god doesn't exist"; both of those are equally as ridiculous, no one should ever make that claim and be taken seriously.  It's impossible to know anything like that beyond the shadow of a doubt.  Yet when things like that are said, the individuals opening their mouth and spewing fourth that garbage are often looked upon favorably by their audience.  Unshakable, blind faith is seen as a positive thing by a large subsection of the country.

Look how people react when scientists say they "don't know" something.  They often like to put down the scientific method, etc. when they hear that.  It's called being honest; there's a whole lot of the world none of us know.

Public persons misuse our desire to follow someone greater than ourselves who understands the world, i.e. the sheep effect, all the time.  Not much different than how cult leaders operate, only they don't have as malicious of intentions.

If we started encouraging people to start questioning everything, their own beliefs, their opinions, their thought processes, all of the conclusions they've come to about life, then everyone would realize that we're all going through life blindly making guesses, none of us have the answers, we're all doing our best to find them as we go along.

Doubt is the solution to the problem of extremism; because if you apply it to all things, how could you ever get behind something that powerfully?