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Author Topic: Book Banning  (Read 7321 times)

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Offline monkeygirl

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2006, 05:23:03 PM »
I've been following this thread with interest, loving to hear the opinions of other and learning bits and pieces here and there that are new and interesting to me.  (i have to admit that my favorite fact doesn't have to do with the topic so much as that Elvi's daugter became interested in a religion mainly the men sang - which I consider not only valid, but better then many other reasons I've heard. :))

So, my turn to toss my hat into the ring.  Book banning.  Not only not a fan, but I consider it to be great crime.  Books are idea on paper and ideas are more precious then diamonds.  Even books that present bad idea, Mein Kampf being a good example, will get people to re-examine their own values and morals, shake them up a little, something we all need to do from time to time.  After all, we all evove on a daily basis and it's a good idea to take a look at our views as we, and the world around us, change.  Even the lightest of fiction contains idea.  Harry Potter cerainly has a world view of good and evil and how to go about one's life in the face of adversity.  

As has been said a number of times, if you don't want your children to read it, don't let them have it - BUT you better be prepared to sit down and discuss why in an intelligent manner, meaning you better have actually read the book and have some very strong ideas about why you feel it is wrong.  Just saying "Don't read it because I say so"...?  Well, That's about all I need to hear to send me off on a mission to read the book from cover to cover to find out why it's forbidden.  

Religion - talk about a sticky subject.  My own experiences - Raised Catholic and sent to catholic school (yes, i had the uniform for all of you curious - we had to wear our skirts a certain length and yes, we did push the limits as much as possible  ;D)  Became an atheist during HS - reason?  angry at god and my parents, so I figued that was the best way to rebel.  ;D - Took some classes in college in comparative religions that totally opened up my eyes.  Wow... Now, I just sort of practice non organized melting pot.  I take the concepts and beliefs that I like and discard the rest.  What I've found out is that every religion has something worthwhile... where they seem to fall apart for me is when people become involved and put their own spin on things...

A good example (and no, I'm not picking on Catholics and Christians - I actully think that Christ's teachings are beautiful) are the Catholic right who codemn people becuase they beliefs are different.  Those what whoud Jesus do bumber stickers?  I think he would come down, tear the sticker off, and tell the driver to get a clue (or bitch slap them, something I know he wouldn't do, but it's a favorite fantasy of mine ;D)

Oh, and please, this is all meant with the deepest respect for everyone's beliefs and religions - I know it's just a matter of a few bad apples making the others look bad - I have friend of all faiths and denominations, From Buddhist to Wiccan, and I would never dream of disparraging their faith.  

 :)

PS. I don't know Cindy - I used to listen to Nine Inch Nails all the time and look how I turned out  ;)

Offline Ariabella

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2006, 05:28:28 PM »
Heeheheheheh...but I do like Nine Inch Nails too..and come to think of it...look where I've ended up *grin* But nothing as desperate as suicide or jumping off a cliff to play Wile E.

Heck, no one ever mentions all the kids who used to grab a blanket or tablecltoh, tie it on and go on the roof to jump off, pretending to be Superman.

I, like you, don't practice one religion, though while I do believe Christ's teachings, I may be bordering on Wicca just because of the hypocrisy in the church (at least here).  But I'm even to the point that I have found Shaolin teachings to be a very calming effect on me.

And the people who's defense for murder or war is God told me to? I don't think so.

Offline monkeygirl

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2006, 05:47:24 PM »
 :) Actually, I've never tried to shoot anyone or kill myself or OD on drugs (although I did take 'I want to bleep you like an animal to heart ;D).  I think that i understood the difference between cartoons and real life pretty well as a kid.  (and as an adult too ;))  Kids aren't stupid, after all.  And if they are, it's usually the parent's fault, not some cartoon.

The thing is, despite not having a religion to belong to, I think of myself as a very spiritual person with strong beliefs and faith.  Just because I choose not to call msyelf one thing or another, makes no difference (and yes, I will admit to having issues on the subject, being a "sexual deviant" and an "abombination in the eyes of god.")

The one thing I remember best, which is sad, is the people who stand outside of abortion clinics and threaten the doctors and nurses and patients with death threats.  That's not what it's all about.  That's has nothing to do with religion. 

Offline Ariabella

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2006, 05:49:39 PM »
And they are the reason that I became pro-Choice. I'm sorry, how can you call yourself a Pro-Life and shout out about murdering babies, then turn around and blow up a clinic filled with people?

Offline VandrenTopic starter

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2006, 05:53:47 PM »
Just doing for Potter research for a paper I'm presenting in June . . . thought I'd toss these tidbits into the ring:

Only two attempts to ban Potter books in England (as of 2003).

“The Church’s position is that magic and sorcery are contrary to the Christian religion . . . ut my feeling is that children are capable of interpreting what they read.  Children who are capable of reading Harry Potter could be told not to take witchcraft seriously, or might even realize that for themselves.”
- Bishop Stephen Sykes, chair of the C of E’s doctrine commission

“The Harry Potter controversy may seem bizarre, but it is hardly unexpected to those who watch such trends in the United States, a violent culture that is home to millions of fundamentalist Christians.  In Europe, America is well known for prudery and prohibitionism.”
- Roberta Harrington of the Scottish newspaper the Sunday Herald

Both quoted in: Stephens, Rebecca.  “Harry and Hierarchy: Book Banning as a Reaction to the Subversion of Authority.”  Reading Harry Potter: Critical Essays ed. Giselle Liza Anatol.  London: Praeger, 2003.  52.

Offline Ariabella

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2006, 05:58:58 PM »
Also true. There was a tv show on here, a number of years back, called Silk Stalkings, it was a police show. Originally I believe it was part of 5 show late night crime series.  And I heard once there were two versions of each episode made, one for Europe, where there was nudity and more detailed things, and one for the US where they couldn't even show a breast, even though it was late night tv.

Offline ZK

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2006, 06:00:00 PM »
Interesting. Simply interesting. *scratches head and shrugs*

As for religion goes, I have my own personal beliefs that I adhere to.

^^

Even though, I have a rather wide selection to choose from with Religion due to my biethnical family.

Offline monkeygirl

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2006, 06:09:41 PM »
Also true. There was a tv show on here, a number of years back, called Silk Stalkings, it was a police show. Originally I believe it was part of 5 show late night crime series.  And I heard once there were two versions of each episode made, one for Europe, where there was nudity and more detailed things, and one for the US where they couldn't even show a breast, even though it was late night tv.


Thank god for HBO and SHOWTIME.  What gets me is that it's ok to show violence by not sex?  I have much more trouble with gore then I do naked breasts... actually I rather like naked breasts  ;D  Thank god I live in SF - I can't imagine living somewhere in the midwest.  I can't help thinking of all those lovely pictures of Ibizia with all the girls wandering around topless - how that can be morally or ethically damaging, I can't imagine.

Offline Ariabella

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2006, 06:12:11 PM »
My thoughts exactly.  And heck, look at all of the National Geographics over the years with the topless tribal women.

Offline Hunter

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2006, 06:22:48 PM »
Naked breasts?  *mock shocked look*  You mean people do that?   *runs around nekkid*  :P

Offline Mistiq

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2006, 06:28:50 PM »
Man, Georgia can really be something sometimes. This reminds me of that time when some teacher down there tried to take plays and other literary works out of the school libraries because the authours are homosexual. Some of best poetry ever written was by homosexual authours. I am not a fan of the Series in question, but I think banning them would be wrong.

Offline VandrenTopic starter

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2006, 09:04:02 PM »
Just a few other things I came across (from Ursula K. Le Guin, discussing the fantasy genre from a generalized american point of view, this time):

“something that goes very deep in the American character: a moral disapproval of fantasy, a disapproval so intense, and often so aggressive, that I cannot help but see it as arising, fundamentally, from fear.” (29)

“We tend, as a people, to look upon all works of the imagination either as suspect, or as contemptible.” (30)

“And if it cannot be justified as ‘educational’ or as ‘self-improvement,’ then, in the Puritan value system, it can only be self-indulgence or escapism.  For pleasure is not a value, to the Puritan; in the contrary, it is a sin.” (30)

“The kind of thing you learn from reading about the problems of a hobbit who is trying to drop a magic ring into an imaginary volcano has very little to do with your social status, or material success, or income.” (33)

-  Le Guin, Ursula K.  “Why are Americans Afraid of Dragons?”  Language of the Night  NY: Berkley, 1982.


Wife was in Ireland for a semester a few years back, accidentally caught a documentary on strippers on one ofthe BBC channels.  At 6 or 7 PM, with no fuzzy bits whatsoever.  'Course, over here, it'd show at midnight with the fuzzy bits or black bars.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2006, 09:05:40 PM by Vandren »

Offline Sherona

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2008, 05:29:24 PM »
Quote
Since when can a Christian care about things like civil liberties? If Jesus came back, they'd be begging for the immediacy of their promised totalitarian state where all offenders to God are killed in an instant. (Seriously, it's in the bible. I was a Christian until months ago.)

Being the daughter of a baptist preacher (yes he preached in German but still a christian preacher, and ordained in the state of Kentucky) I have done some serious studying of the bible...and I have yet to find any reference where it says that one should kill non-christians..in fact quite the opposite. One obvious example was when an adulterous woman was about to be stoned Jesus cried for the oen without sin to caste the first stone..no one could so they walked away..of course this is a bible story..I am by no means saying it really happened literally, figuratively or what not (my father just rolled in his grave :P) but just as an example..

would love to know the book, chapter and verse where you claim that it says for non-christians to be killed..(new testament please...as most christians believe under grace rule..where the laws of the old testament are put away since they live 'under' grace now that the son of god was killed for their sins)

In fact even Jesus prayed for the 'sinners' on his last breath, allegedly saying "Father forgive them, they know not what they do"..to be Christian means to be christ-like..

/end agnostic christian rant

:P

Just for the record nope...I do not call myself a christian..I do not really associate with a religion per se..I just...kind of leave myself open to anything...lol.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2008, 05:56:57 PM »
I'm an atheist/agnostic who left the Catholic church at 17 because I morally disagreed with their stance on many matters.

But I gotta say, that's not fair to say this:
Quote
Since when can a Christian care about things like civil liberties?

Not all Christians are like that.
Christianity is a large group of different denominations.
There are loud and visible people who attack civil liberties in the name of Christianity, but they do not have a monopoly on that faith and it's teachings.

Indeed, there exist denominations or free-minded individuals who stand for tolerance and against hate. And they believe God wants them to do so, so no contradictions.

'Christian' is a very broad category, really.
Personally, I believe it's better to criticize individual movements, not the whole category of very different people.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2008, 06:19:08 PM »
I'm not shocked the way things are going we are heading into a warped version of Fahrenheit 451 either with the suppression of all real knowledge and critical learning or at some point some books just being unacceptable or at worst banning all books- as extreme as it is. In college now I must be the only serious classical student left studying what a friend of mine calls the "dusty old books written by dead white men". As I see it college is dumbing down to the lower denominator of go here and learn a trade or skill, not bettering ones breadth of knowledge. Once one can decide this work is good and this one bad and ban the latter your limiting human knowledge and experience- good or bad.

Offline Sherona

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2008, 06:48:07 PM »
Quote
Indeed, there exist denominations or free-minded individuals who stand for tolerance and against hate. And they believe God wants them to do so, so no contradictions.

'Christian' is a very broad category, really.
Personally, I believe it's better to criticize individual movements, not the whole category of very different people.

Couldn't agree with this more :) There are indeed individuals that claim that they are saving lives by bombing abortion clinics ect and so forth. I am just asking where in the christian bible that he is getting that the bible condones killing non-christians..just a curiosity on my end :)

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Book Banning
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2008, 06:52:44 PM »
Colleges are simply following in the footsteps of US high schools, thanks to the ridiculous and ass-backward No Child Left Behind Act.  Forcing schools to dumb everything down so that everyone can pass so they can get funding is NOT a step forward... colleges are simply doing the same thing.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2008, 07:03:29 PM »
I argued to several state officials just to withdraw from No Child Left Behind and forfeit the Federal dollars. They have no business at that level in education anyway save for protecting racial fairness its supposed to be left to the States and citizens as a right. They looked at me like I was a Martian.

Mind you I'm not OPPOSED to studying a trade or vocation after High School and understand a college education in necessary for a good percentage, but my (on my mothers side) grandfather studied business and is was very well grounded in general knowledge. You can and should have both.

I also see benefit in vocational education my brother is a machinist a rather demanding trade both academically and skillwise if focused into an area, and he commands a good salary, but its not college. I love him and am very proud of him though. He is not college material he is one of those folks that is just really good with his hands and precision work there is no shame in that.

Offline Sherona

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2008, 09:37:14 AM »
I agree ZK.


that being said back to the topic of book banning.

I don;t think any books need banned. I think books should be viewed as tehy are intended to be read. As something informative, maybe even fun. I see no reason why any books in the Fiction category should ever be banned in a public forum.

However schools do need to look at content, such as some of the erotic stories on E...I would definitly say not appropriate for a library shelf :P However banning a book on any religious grounds is wrong imo..it should be looked at for content and not moral context.

I remember in middle school and I read some of Mark Twain's work. Wonderful author, wrote many classics...but he wrote them in an era where it was ..ok to use racial slurs. Now this day and age it is most inappropriate to use the N- word as a common term for African Americans...however it was in his day. *shrugs* Personally I think that the censorship that had librarians all over US scribbling out those words in their copies of Huckleberry Finn should be used wiht common sense...

common sense..hmm..might be hoping for too much there :P

Edit: aww as far as warning labels for adult material I can see your point on that and will say yeah..those would be handy.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 09:42:59 AM by Sherona »

Offline ZK

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2008, 09:43:42 AM »
Book content should be monitered in many areas and labeled appropriately. More so, as Sherona says. In schools (both public and private). Banning written material based on religious basis is outright silly. But, when it comes to libraries and even book purchases, they should be a little more strict on who they lend out to and who they sell to. My little brother was able to purchase some Litrotica (I returned it immediately when I found out what he purchased) at the local book store, seeing as it was carefully hidden amongst other books. Forgot what it was, but you wouldn't know it was erotic lit until you read the previews on the back.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2008, 10:02:11 AM »
Labeling books & holding parents responsible for what their kids buy.
It's good for you that you noticed your brother's purchase, ZK. There's time for everything, but kids don't need to have adult material available to them. Too bad some parents completely lack interest in what their kids read or see.

OTOH, I feel even devout Christians have no reason to deny Harry Potter to their kids. It's not the satanic bible... There are classic fairy tales that are more scary and more 'occult' than Harry Potter.

Offline Sherona

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2008, 10:06:07 AM »
Quote
OTOH, I feel even devout Christians have no reason to deny Harry Potter to their kids. It's not the satanic bible... There are classic fairy tales that are more scary and more 'occult' than Harry Potter.


Indeed. While I disliked the books simply on they aren't really my taste in literature, I see nothing that would scream "Satanic" or "Witchcraft"...*shrugs*

then again I did not see anything inthe Chronicles of Narnia that screamed "Religious" either other then referencing the children as "Sons of Adam" and "Daughters of Eve"..of course I wasn't really trying to read in between the lines etiher..I just read about a cute world filled iwth talking creatures and Magic that only Children can visit.

Just like with HP I just saw a story of people gifted with magic going to a special school with exotic monsters and puzzles to figure out...again..But there are those who will sit and nitpick every word, "What did the author mean here"...

Offline Elvi

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2008, 10:30:42 AM »
Here, we have clear 'labelling' when it comes to book shops etc.
There are clear divides between children's areas and 'adult' books usually with factual sections and overlap sections in between.

For instance, the shop we frequent has 'adult' works on the top floor, children's sections on the bottom along with educational and things like roleplay etc.
Where genre overlap, for instance Beasty is into the Japanese graphic novels, both adult and those suitable for children are in the same section, but those deemed only suitable for over 18's are sealed and cannot be read and have a sticker on them.
That also goes for the fantasy fiction, science fiction, roleplay and seveal other sections where there is a cross over.

I also think that books of an adult nature are specially coded so that it shows when they are run through the till.

Again, these things should be, like anything else, monitored by parents, though I have to say that Beasty does watch films and read books that are 'older', simply because we as parents feel she is mature enough to understand the content and the reason for it.

We don't deny her anything, we simply tell her that we feel it is not suitable, why we think it's not suitable and that we will look at it again when she is older.

As for people reading things into books that most see as not there?
Well, the sons of adam/daughters of eve, I did and still do see as a way of saying that they were human.
Harry Potter?
Yeah right, it condemns us all to hell.
The Golden Compass seried?
Oh most certainly a story written to deprive Christians of everything that we hold dearly.....or is it simply what Beasty says...A story set in a fictional world where they don't have souls like we do, they are alien they are different.

Offline Max

Re: Book Banning
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2008, 10:51:10 AM »
There is at least one book that I think should be banned.  I really think "The Anarchist Cookbook" should be banned.  Or maybe someone can tell me why a book about making things like letter bombs shouldn't be.

As for Harry Potter, or the Golden Compass?  Can't say that I have read them, can't say that I ever will.  Just can't find the interest to read them.  I think there are plenty of books someone might find objectionable, and I would say, don't read them. 

Now, I think I would find it... uncomfortable if a school would require those books to be read.  Since there is so much bad felings against them.