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Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 12177 times)

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Offline jouzinka

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #75 on: October 08, 2009, 11:54:11 AM »
Sorry I have to call fowl on this one, because the male is more often than not as equally affected in this, if not more so since it seems common ground that he "Doesn't have a choice"

One of my close friends had sex the girl he had sex with lied that she was on the pill, when she got pregnant she acted as if it was his fault. But she went ahead and had the baby, my friend pleaded with her not to but he didn't get that choice. He now has to give her allmost half his wages to help raise the kid he is not allowed to see, did not want, and from the start was being played for the fool.

 I've said for him to stop paying welfare because she is not letting him see his child but hes spending his now turning 25 life working his butt off for the child that doesn't even know he exists. Should males not get a say in the matter? Should they remain subservient to the females choice and as a result not having a choice in the matter? Just because some guys walk away doesn't mean the women cannot also, but the woman "Can and does" blackmail the father to being her whipping boy.
If you feel that way, I'm sorry. It wasn't meant as a personal attack, merely an observation. Although, since you ask, I do believe that this whole issue should be more discussed by women, then men, because in the whole scale it will affect women more. Of course men should have a say in the individual case with their partner, but as a nation-wide issue, I'm not so sure. I guess that makes me sexist, yeah, I know.
What I meant was that in the nation-wide law issue it should be the women, who decide whether they want to keep the abortion as an option or no. I never said men shouldn't have a say if they do or don't want their own kids, see the bolded part. :-)

Online Silk

Re: Abortion
« Reply #76 on: October 08, 2009, 11:59:41 AM »
So your implying that women choose the law, but men can air a greivance with the mother? How is that any different from what it is now?

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2009, 12:02:19 PM »
I'm sorry, Silk, but I'm having trouble understanding the question. Can you rephrase it, please?

Offline Trieste

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2009, 12:11:20 PM »
There is no yardstick against which to legally hold a man. Nothing forces him to take responsibility, and we as a culture should not condone that. However, the implication that this is a woman's topic where men shouldn't be included is both ludicrous and insulting. It's like saying women shouldn't have an interest in urology because we don't have a penis. Are you saying that fathers cannot love their children as much as mothers? Are you saying that an abortion is not as much a concern for an involved father?

Sorry I have to call fowl on this one

*cannot resist some humor*



Offline Oniya

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2009, 12:18:03 PM »
Assuming that the father is involved (and isn't just some 'baby-daddy'), then both parents should make the decision together.  But if the father has no interest in being involved, then - I'm sorry - he vacates his rights along with his responsibilities.  That being said, if the woman knows he has no desire to be involved, she should take that into consideration in her decision, and not expect anything from him in the future.  Conversely, if he does take on the responsibility (both emotional and financial), then he should have parental rights, where that child is concerned.

Online Silk

Re: Abortion
« Reply #80 on: October 08, 2009, 12:23:22 PM »
Assuming that the father is involved (and isn't just some 'baby-daddy'), then both parents should make the decision together.  But if the father has no interest in being involved, then - I'm sorry - he vacates his rights along with his responsibilities.  That being said, if the woman knows he has no desire to be involved, she should take that into consideration in her decision, and not expect anything from him in the future.  Conversely, if he does take on the responsibility (both emotional and financial), then he should have parental rights, where that child is concerned.

Which currently is not the case.

Man not interested man? leaves = Women not interested? women leaves (Both abort adopt and neglect senses)
Man not interested? leaves = Women interested? keeps
Man interested? Stays = Women interested? = Keeps
Man interested? Stays = Women not interested? Not a thing man can do about it
Man interested but women not let them see? Depressing = Women interested with man but not let man see? Blackmail.


I see a strange trend here
Edit:
A Father and a Dad is completely different things, A father is a male who has birthed a child with a female.

A Dad is a male parent
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:31:09 PM by Silk »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #81 on: October 08, 2009, 12:24:55 PM »
Assuming that the father is involved (and isn't just some 'baby-daddy'), then both parents should make the decision together.  But if the father has no interest in being involved, then - I'm sorry - he vacates his rights along with his responsibilities.  That being said, if the woman knows he has no desire to be involved, she should take that into consideration in her decision, and not expect anything from him in the future.  Conversely, if he does take on the responsibility (both emotional and financial), then he should have parental rights, where that child is concerned.

x2. Well-stated, Oniya.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #82 on: October 08, 2009, 12:27:03 PM »
There is no yardstick against which to legally hold a man. Nothing forces him to take responsibility, and we as a culture should not condone that. However, the implication that this is a woman's topic where men shouldn't be included is both ludicrous and insulting. It's like saying women shouldn't have an interest in urology because we don't have a penis.
Mainly for the bolded part I came to think that the decision whether to keep abortions as an option should be women's.

Urology is about urinary tracts that both men and women have, not about a penis.
Are you saying that fathers cannot love their children as much as mothers? Are you saying that an abortion is not as much a concern for an involved father?

No and no.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2009, 12:29:30 PM »
I know it's not currently the case.  In my personal opinion, though, if you expect the man to shell out the cash take responsibility, he should have the rights that go along with it.  As Ol' Ben would say, 'It's a bit like calling an ox a bull.  He's grateful for the honor, but he'd rather have back what's rightfully his.'

If the man's a scumbag, better to sever all ties with him.  He's not likely to pay in those situations anyways.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2009, 12:30:16 PM »
Urology is about urinary tracts that both men and women have, not about a penis.

If you insist on splitting hairs, beg pardon, a urologist with a medical focus on erectile dysfunction.

ffs.

Offline Kate

Re: Abortion
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2009, 12:31:36 PM »
Personally I feel the idea that abortion is "against God's will / affront to god / impinges on a "right" of a soul that is not their own" are not statement that I give credibility to for several reasons

I see God as "the everything" god is life, all thoughts you have, from a quantum mechanics point of view "all realities being all possibilities existing at the same time"
I beleive the choices we make choose which of these "realities" that our awarness finds more dominate, its not like the other realities didn't exist, they just dont exist subjectively or in an experienced way. As such one action that "god" (assuming one exists) shakes his or her or its head at and says "hmm im disappointed I made this to test you so you choose the "Right way for "you" - which was explained to another that you should trust over your own thoughts" or society doing likewise for non religious reasons calling it "human rights" is a little rich.

The concept that you are god and part of it and are perfect as you are - all decisions and actions are perfect but WHICH version of perfect is a choice of the individual - and the reason for life in the first place - as a soul to choose what it wants to refine is equally valid compared to any religion in my view... but all these are "perspectives" of individuals, the mess people get into is valuing one as more objective than another.

Does someone who is not educated have a "less objective" perspective than one is educated ? No .. I think "objectivity" is a myth. "learning" is not becoming more objective, becoming aware or being attentive to something isnt being more objective, it could be said that "learning" is an act of becoming more bias and "less objective".
Assuming research on a topic makes one's perspective more sensible is very presumptuous.

The concept that one may view their perspective as more enlightened and objective than another's to the point of insisting particular behavior for another that has alien values to them I view as arrogance.

If there is such a thing as a soul (Which I do beleive in) I dont think it changes anything as a soul can't be harmed, if one body or existence is changed so it cant be a vessle it will just look for another in another time/reality/existance (big assumption perhaps but on par with the assumption 

a) Mom/life does the work and the new soul "appears" at time X and its its "Right" to own the vessel from T = X+ (After x weeks when features become prevalent)

b) New soul appeared from the get go and the body is ITS property from T = 0+ (conception)

c) New souls are hungry and are lining up so really all bodies of "potential babies" are their "right" ie they all own them at T = NEGATIVE X onways (ie prevention = impinging on their "rights")

Either way I can't see "aborting" has harming a soul nor do I beleive souls have "rights to bodies" what they do is USE bodies as tools.

At worst I think an abortion may delay a "desire" of a soul to incarnate and refine skills in a life, but she wouldn't be impinging on its RIGHT to do so, only removing one opportunity for ONE to ... at that time.

remember a woman that aborts at time = T1 may do so to organise sitations where she can have MANY children at time = T2, if she was forced to have one at Time = T1, she may not be able to have more later.

Life exists everywhere, that idea that more human life = better I think is like ?
huh says who ??

Qualiy of life is important also. If a child is born in circumstances where misery concerning its upbringing prevails, it effects many, it could be that 2 need to quit jobs or turn down promotional oppintunities ... true the baby may go on to be a great healer - but the mother COULD also become a great healer if she didnt have that child then ... Comparing "what ifs" for this issue is just asking for long lists supporting each side for academic reasons no more, it doesn't move the argument.

To a large extend the woman is a highly dependent medium for development. Very complicated biology is required for a human to grow from one cell. I view someones "privates" as a limb of theirs, a hand can be used to help someone, a hand can be used to slap someone. A hand can be used for many things, what the person that owns it does with it is .... a choice.

Yes the child is dependent on the mother for longer than just the time in her body.
So the idea of when the child should be considered being protected by the "state" as an "individual" I think is very strange. I can see the argument of "well in a way its an individual the moment its a seed because it has the potentional to be one if certain circumstances are favorable and its up to humans to ensure this circumstances are endeavored for" pulls a few strings I think unnecessarily.

The concept of what is an "individual" or a "potential individual" I think is what causes a lot of issues.

With the right "favourable circumstances" your liver cells can be made into a new individuals.... by cloning ... yet we "kill off many potential clone-individuals that just need favorable environment to become distinct and individually human"  each time we drink wine ... they will have the same genes as the "parent" but identical twins have the same genes also ... and they are recongised as different and may have different souls.

Actually is their one soul in each of your liver cells waiting to be cloned ?

Snapping a glass of wine out of a mans hand and saying "your aborting countless people ! / baby killer ! You have no RIGHT to impose on THEIR RIGHT to be BORN as individuals ! You know that with the right biological conditions you have the means to ensure they could grow to become people you sick fool"
would have most men blinking thinking ... whoa slow down hon.

It could be said "yeah but that is artificial its not nature's way so it doesnt really count but natural abortion is bad, your being ridiculous with that stance" ... also doesnt make sense.

Neither are cloning nor natural births are "artificial" if one choose to view everything as "life". Your own thoughts actions and capabilities are "life" .. which may or may not include abilities of making your own cloning laboratory and supplying liver cells for massive amounts of mini-mes. (which is a perspective)

Debatably cloning and natural births are are "man made" 
(ie without many choices from "parents" it wouldn't have happened).

Ethics is highly subjective.
"Right" vs "wrong" is highly subjective
What is "objective" ... is subjective.

Choices simply give different probability bias towards different outcomes, all possible outcomes are "life"

I personally view that utopia should be strived for - creating heaven on earth for those that are living on the earth as "independent" individuals.
Independant and individuals though is not a concept that really exists until they are independent CULTURALLY ( ie you can walk into the utopia and walk out again without issues - you engage into its values when it suits you)

Society taking the view that the parents MUST do this or that or be thrown in jail for abuse via neglect of care etc is not giving them freedom to do what they choose without threatening to remove increasing amounts of liberties. I think that culturally the biological parents must assume responsibility for its raising and development is HIGHLY backward -and the current view of this causes many passions to flair over this issue.

Many of the elderly that are able bodied or those that simply want to and are educated would be far better parents than the biological parents in many instances and would gladly want their life part of younger generations and would adore to aid their raising... but be solely responsible with consequences of not being consistent for 18 years ? ... no...

I would adore to see the child itself view all of humanity as its teachers, its "parents", its friends, its helpers its supporters.. etc we (humanity) are one big family, the sooner we stop trying to wedge people into historical family units the better (the average "working" healthy family units I think is broken anyway due to too much influence of particular individuals in the childs upbringing not letting them be rounded as being raised by a group of elders would give them)

Women generally do have strong maternal instincts with their own children, if they wish to act of them ... fine.... role of the biological father to provide the means for it even if they don't want to ?
No.

Men generally have a strong instinct to sow their seed ... role of each woman to raise any that come from this to do their duty and raise it ?
No.

Role of the mother to pay for it ? No. Role of the elders of the mothers choosing to raise it when she wants to run about doing other things ?  I think so. Elders have a lot to teach, they are more worldly than biolgical parents and like have seen it all before. This also would stop generation gaps forming, less pressure and stress for all ... "single mothers" stop being relevant .. (As they are not expected to raise them on their own) ... all good I think.

I also beleive it would stop the need for "two people different genders need a house each" rubbish ... this try to mimic the historical "family unit" is causing us all harm.

Culturally while society puts providing means on the shoulders of the the father with massive consequences of loss of liberty if he doesnt "do this and that" the farther should have rights to the decision also.  If the mother to be chooses to go ahead against the fathers wishes - the state expecting the father to pay for it I think is a little rich.

Ideally I think the mother can choose while it is IN her body.
When it is out ... its societies role to provide the means of raising, not the biological mother nor the biological father.

If the elders insist on something that retards this a little to stop it getting out of hand - we take their advice very seriously - not because we will be punished by law if we dont - but because they are in those positions because their view is respected (not enforced)

I also think inheritance is a not healthy culturally also - it encourages greed, and removes a lovely opportunity to re-distribute wealth and resources and power evenly or on a merit / need basis.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2009, 12:41:48 PM »
If you insist on splitting hairs, beg pardon, a urologist with a medical focus on erectile dysfunction.
I'm sorry, Trieste, but you are the one who's splitting hairs, because the basis of the two subjects is completely unrelated. At least to me. There's a difference in being interested in the mechanics of erectile dysfunction and leading a discussion whether to ban Viagra because it's not healthy on the men's heart and can be dangerous. (a lame example, I know, but I use it only to get a point across)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:45:02 PM by jouzinka »

Online Silk

Re: Abortion
« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2009, 12:48:34 PM »
I'm sorry, Trieste, but you are the one who's splitting hairs, because the basis of the two subjects is completely unrelated. At least to me. There's a difference in being interested in the mechanics of erectile dysfunction and leading a discussion whether to ban Viagra because it's not healthy on the men's heart and can be dangerous. (a lame example, I know, but I use it only to get a point across)

Its related in regard that your implying that men should have no say in women's affairs, so in the spirit of equality (As hard as it is for a sexist/feminist etc to understand what equality is) would mean that women should stay out of all male affairs, because that won't take us back a few century's.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:54:21 PM by Silk »

Offline Scott

Re: Abortion
« Reply #88 on: October 08, 2009, 12:56:02 PM »


I just wanted to give everyone a coffee break :)


Offline Torch

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #89 on: October 08, 2009, 01:02:40 PM »
I also think inheritance is a not healthy culturally also - it encourages greed, and removes a lovely opportunity to re-distribute wealth and resources and power evenly or on a merit / need basis.

[threadjack]

I realize the above statement has nothing to do with abortion, but let me say this:

Over my cold dead corpse will any government entity tell me what I can and cannot do with my net worth, whether it is in the form of cash, real estate, investments, or spanish doubloons buried in a mason jar in my backyard. I willingly and gladly pay my fair share of taxes, and aside from that, it is for me to decide what I do with my personal wealth as long as I am not breaking any laws. If I want to leave it to my kids, put the money in a trust fund, donate every cent to charity, or buy everyone in the United States an ice cream cone, I will goddamn well do as I please, thankyouverymuch.

I get twitchy with the mere mention of "redistributing wealth".

[/threadjack]


Oooh, coffee! *pours a mug full*

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #90 on: October 08, 2009, 01:04:12 PM »
Is there actually a male affair that would affect women as much as you claim abortions affect men? Is there one that would be as much discussed by women?

Just for the record, I didn't say that men shouldn't have a say in women's affairs generally, but in this particular one, but I guess that doesn't matter. Someone has to be baddie of a thread.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #91 on: October 08, 2009, 01:05:02 PM »
Is there actually a male affair that would affect women as much as you claim abortions affect men? Is there one that would be as much discussed by women?

Vasectomies?  Not that I see many men rushing out to get them...

Online Silk

Re: Abortion
« Reply #92 on: October 08, 2009, 01:07:54 PM »
Feminist topics in general seem that way, allways happy to talk about males shortcomings and issues when not allowing males to really have the say in the matter without getting a ton of accusations thrown at them. And yes it does affect them alot because I've seen some feminist subjects and it is extremely hurtful to the lads.

Offline Torch

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #93 on: October 08, 2009, 01:12:10 PM »
Is there actually a male affair that would affect women as much as you claim abortions affect men? Is there one that would be as much discussed by women?



How about the fact that many insurance companies gladly cover Viagra and Cialis, but won't cover some forms of birth control for women?

Offline Aiden

Re: Abortion
« Reply #94 on: October 08, 2009, 01:12:18 PM »


 If that's your belief, that is hypocritical

I stated originally that my views were hypocritical. I don't expect other to understand or accept my views.

If I get a female pregnant, then she will have the child. At that point if she wants nothing to do with the child for whatever reason she can walk out of their life forever.

Father's should have rights also.

Offline Scott

Re: Abortion
« Reply #95 on: October 08, 2009, 01:15:00 PM »
How about the fact that many insurance companies gladly cover Viagra and Cialis, but won't cover some forms of birth control for women?

I think it's because if there's no new people, there's no future money for their company maybe?

Offline Torch

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #96 on: October 08, 2009, 01:17:11 PM »
If I get a female pregnant, then she will have the child.

Unless you plan on literally chaining this young lady to your side, there would really be nothing stopping her from getting an abortion. I suppose you could sue her after it was done, claiming it was done without your knowledge, but that would be your only recourse, that I could think of, anyway.


Offline Aiden

Re: Abortion
« Reply #97 on: October 08, 2009, 01:21:01 PM »
Or I could talk to her like a responsible human being, maybe?

Offline Trieste

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #98 on: October 08, 2009, 01:24:04 PM »
Men shouldn't have a say in what women do with their bodies because the man cannot possibly understand what the women go through. Pregnancy is a deeply personal experience that has emotional and physical ramifications for the woman that men can educate themselves about but they cannot understand because they do not have the requisite body parts.

(Ergo they should not be involved in abortion policymaking.)

True? Good. Let's see if we can keep the train of thought on track:

Men Women shouldn't have a say in what women do with their bodies because the man  woman cannot possibly understand what the women go through. Pregnancy Erectile dysfunction is a deeply personal experience that has emotional and physical ramifications for the woman that men women can educate themselves about but they cannot understand because they do not have the requisite body parts.

(Ergo, they should not be urologists.)

Sex is an integral part of most healthy romantic relationships, and it affects both the man and the woman in a standard hetero relationship. (Homosexual relationships are not relevant, here.) If you don't think that's comparable to dealing with an unwanted child, then you may be placing pregnancy on an emotional pedestal that just doesn't exist. You are underestimating the male psyche.

Someone has to be baddie of a thread.

Not really, but you're supporting a position that is quite frankly sexist. When the rest of the thread doesn't agree with you, you resort to being passive aggressive. It's not really supporting your point.

Offline Raven41174

Re: Abortion
« Reply #99 on: October 08, 2009, 01:25:42 PM »
This may jump off a bit, but I believe the father should have rights and a say also.  If having the child is not going to endanger the mother, and the father wants to take that child and pay any related expense to having that child, he should be allowed.  Abortion is way to widely used as a form of birth control, and it should not be allowed for that reason.  If the woman is raped, or having the child will endanger her life,  these are really the only reason I can see for abortion.