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Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 12136 times)

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Offline Torch

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2009, 09:22:53 PM »


But for ME, I personally beg the question of whether or not it's really a "choice" when you don't have all the facts, and don't know how likely it is that you'll be in the high percentages of women who suffer psychological trauma.

I asked for statistical references because you are continually making claims such as the one above with no basis in fact other than your opinion. It is your opinion that a high percentage of women suffer psychological trauma after an abortion. But you have no factual references to back up this claim, and the many others that you are stating in your posts.

You are making broad based, sweeping claims regarding not only every woman who seeks a legal abortion, but also every health care provider who performs the procedure, claims that have no basis in fact other than your opinion, and you are presenting that opinion as an irrefutable fact.

We get that you are against abortion (and adoption for some reason). We get it. But please stop presenting your 'evidence' as anything other than what it is - your personal opinion.

Offline Phoenix

Re: Abortion
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2009, 09:31:00 PM »
I asked for statistical references because you are continually making claims such as the one above with no basis in fact other than your opinion. It is your opinion that a high percentage of women suffer psychological trauma after an abortion. But you have no factual references to back up this claim, and the many others that you are stating in your posts.

You are making broad based, sweeping claims regarding not only every woman who seeks a legal abortion, but also every health care provider who performs the procedure, claims that have no basis in fact other than your opinion, and you are presenting that opinion as an irrefutable fact.

We get that you are against abortion (and adoption for some reason). We get it. But please stop presenting your 'evidence' as anything other than what it is - your personal opinion.

You obviously didn't read the link with extensive psychological questions and the responses of women to them.

It's further pointless to give statistics, since people can't be bothered to look over the link provided. The questions were extensive, and proved that the larger number of women did experience various issues, than didn't.


Statistics that you didn't bother to read:

Section 1
Present age:
<20    20-24    25-29    30-34    35-39    >39
2.7%    11.2%    27.0%    24.3%    23.9%    10.8%

(N = 259) Avg: 32.0 yrs
Race or ethnic origin:
White    Non-White
92.3%    7.7%

(N = 255)
State of residence:    Respondents from 35 states

 
Highest grade completed:
<12    12    13    14    15    16    17    >17
7.5%    40.2%    12.2%    17.7%    1.6%    16.9%    1.2%    2.8%

(N = 254) Avg: 13.6 yrs
How old were you at the time of your abortion?
<15    15-19    20-24    25-29    30-34    >35
1.9%    40.1%    36.2%    15.6%    4.3%    1.9%

(N = 257) Avg: 21.5 yrs
Time since abortion, in years:

(a calculated field)
<6    6-10    11-15    16-20    >20
19.8%    33.1%    31.1%    12.1%    3.9%

(N = 257) Avg: 10.6 yrs

Was your abortion.. . .
LEGAL or    ILLEGAL?    (Indicated one of each)

92.1%
   

7.1%
   

.8%

(N = 251)
How many abortions have you had?
One    Two    Three    Four or more
73.6%    17.8%    5%    3.5%

(N = 258)
Marital status at that time:
Single    Married    Engaged    Separated/Divorced
64.6%    15.4%    7.1%    13.0%

(N = 254)
How many weeks pregnant were you at that time?
<5    5-6    7-8    9-10    11-12    13-16    16-20    >20
7.7%    11.7%    28.3%    16.2%    21.1%    10.9%    2.4%    1.6%

(N = 247) Avg: 9.6 wks
How many children did you have at that time?
Zero    One    Two    Three    Over Three
74.2%    13.8%    8.5%    2.7%    0%

(N = 260)
What type of abortion procedure was used?
Suction    D & C    Saline/

Prostaglandin
   Other
80.0%    13.5%    3.7%    2.9%

(N = 245)
Were you awake during the procedure?
Yes    No    Unsure
79.6%    18.8%    1.6%

(N = 255)
 
 
Were you given pain killers or anesthetics prior to the operation?
Yes    No    Unsure
54.7%    32.0%    13.3%

(N = 256)

 

 

Section 2

The questions in the following section require an answer on a scale of ranging from 5 to 1. Answer by circling number 5 if you strongly agree with the statement, 4 if you agree , and 3 if you are uncertain . If you disagree with the statement, circle number 2, and if you strongly disagree with the statement or if the opposite was true in your case, circle number 1. If you believe the question does not apply to you, leave it blank.

 
     (N)    Strongly

Disagree
                  Strongly

Agree
1.    Prior to my abortion, I believed that abortion was a moral choice.    (252)    15.1%    9.1%    36.9%    22.2%    16.7%
2.    I believed abortion should be a legal option for all women.    (257)    29.2%    10.1%    24.9%    19.5%    16.3%
3.    My choice to abort was consistent with my prior beliefs about abortion.    (254)    36.2%    17.3%    18.5%    16.1%    11.8%
4.    My choice was inconsistent with my prior beliefs. I felt my decision was a betrayal of my own ideals.    (248)    12.9%    11.3%    15.3%    14.9%    45.6%
5.    My decision to have an abortion was an agonizing one.    (256)    8.4%    11.6%    7.2%    18.5%    54.2%
6.    Prior to my abortion I was a religious person.    (259)    16.6%    19.7%    17.0%    26.3%    20.5%
7.    There was a time prior to my abortion when I received professional counseling for emotional or psychiatric difficulties.    (248)    59.7%    12.9%    4.0%    10.1%    13.3%
8.    The memory of my abortion has faded with time.    (256)    52.0%    22.3%    6.6%    10.2%    9.0%
9.    The memory of my abortion is vividly clear.    (255)    8.2%    10.2%    9.8%    25.1%    46.7%
10.    The abortion procedure was painful.    (257)    10.9%    8.2%    12.1%    22.2%    46.7%

 

Section 3

The following is a checklist of possible post-abortion reactions. Answers again range from 1, "Strongly Disagree," to 5, "Strongly Agree." In general, answer 2 for NO , 3 for Uncertain , and 4 for YES . Only if you experienced a severe reaction, should you answer with number 5. If you experienced a strong reaction opposite to the one questioned, answer by circling number 1. If the question is not applicable to your case, leave the question blank.
AFTER MY ABORTION, I EXPERIENCED FEELINGS OF:    (N)    Strongly

Disagree
                  Strongly

Agree
1.    Guilt    (256)    0.4%    2.3%    4.7%    31.3%    61.3%
2.    Depression    (255)    0.4%    3.9%    7.5%    35.7%    52.5%
3.    Anger    (255)    1.2%    9.0%    9.0%    35.7%    45.1%
4.    Sorrow    (255)    0.4%    2.4%    5.5%    36.5%    55.3%
 
5.    Happiness    (241)    62.2%    22.4%    7.9%    5.4%    2.1%
6.    Grief    (255)    0.8%    5.5%    9.0%    40.8%    43.9%
7.    Bitterness    (251)    3.2%    8.8%    13.5%    34.7%    39.8%
8.    Regret    (257)    1.9%    3.5%    9.7%    32.7%    52.1%
 
9.    Rage    (245)    9.4%    20.0%    20.4%    21.2%    29.0%
10.    Anguish    (245)    2.0%    7.8%    14.3%    37.1%    38.8%
11.    Remorse    (254)    1.6%    5.9%    6.3%    41.3%    44.9%
12.    Power    (237)    58.6%    23.2%    12.2%    3.8%    2.1%
 
13.    Despair    (245)    2.4%    9.8%    13.9%    35.5%    38.4%
14.    Shame    (254)    0.4%    2.8%    5.9%    39.0%    52.0%
15.    Horror    (241)    4.6%    13.3%    23.2%    29.0%    29.9%
16.    Unworthiness    (254)    1.6%    3.9%    8.7%    33.5%    52.4%
 
17.    Loneliness    (250)    2.0%    6.8%    7.6%    38.4%    45.2%
18.    Hopelessness    (247)    2.0%    11.3%    13.4%    32.0%    41.3%
19.    Helplessness    (248)    2.0%    14.1%    11.7%    31.5%    40.7%
20.    Self-condemnation    (251)    1.2%    2.4%    5.6%    33.9%    57.0%
 
21.    Liberation    (234)    44.4%    25.2%    16.7%    11.5%    2.1%
22.    Rejection    (238)    4.6%    10.1%    24.8%    31.1%    29.4%
23.    Confusion    (250)    1.2%    6.4%    11.6%    44.4%    36.4%
24.    Anxiety    (248)    1.6%    6.5%    10.5%    43.5%    37.9%
 
25.    Constant stress    (246)    2.0%    14.2%    19.5%    33.3%    30.9%
26.    Withdrawal    (245)    2.9%    15.5%    16.7%    33.1%    31.8%
27.    Isolation    (241)    3.3%    17.4%    17.4%    31.5%    30.3%
28.    Sexual freedom    (235)    40.0%    25.5%    19.1%    11.1%    4.3%

 
     

(N)
   

Strongly  Disagree
                  Strongly

Agree
29.    Self-hatred    (250)    2.8%    6.8%    13.6%    33.2%    43.6%
30.    Alienation from others    (238)    3.4%    20.6%    18.5%    31.9%    25.6%
31.    Inner peace    (237)    63.7%    25.7%    5.5%    2.1%    3.0%
32.    Unforgiveness of self    (258)    1.9%    5.8%    6.6%    31.4%    54.3%

 
     

(N)
   

Strongly  Disagree
                  Strongly

Agree
33.    Unforgiveness of those involved    (252)    5.6%    15.5%    14.7%    34.9%    29.4%
34.    Having become degraded or debased    (243)    2.1%    12.8%    17.7%    37.4%    30.0%
35.    Having been exploited by other    (243)    2.9%    15.2%    19.3%    30.9%    31.7%
36.    Hatred of those involved    (240)    7.9%    22.5%    22.9%    22.9%    23.8%


I'm not going to bother with bolding all the rest of the signs of trauma, the list is pretty extensive. What I've bolded here is enough to show that a MAJORITY have experienced psychological trauma. The bolded numbers are "agree" or "strongly agree." They make up majorities.

I suppose that an argument could be made that there's no question, "I experienced multiples of these factors," so hey, someone who wants to claim that the data is invalid only because of that can do so.

But please don't bother with requests for statistics that you won't bother to read anyway. It's inconsiderate of my time, and of me.
[/u]
 
37.    Hatred of man who made me pregnant    (249)    15.3%    29.7%    20.1%    16.9%    18.1%
38.    Hatred of all men    (243)    23.0%    33.7%    19.8%    15.2%    8.2%
39.    Fear of punishment from God    (249)    4.4%    12.0%    13.3%    34.9%    35.3%
40.    Fear of harm to my other children    (218)    17.0%    21.6%    12.8%    25.2%    23.4%
 
41.    Fear of another pregnancy    (245)    13.5%    23.7%    13.9%    25.3%    23.7%
42.    Fear of needing another abortion    (244)    24.2%    28.7%    12.3%    15.2%    19.7%
43.    Fear of touching babies    (246)    24.8%    37.0%    13.0%    13.8%    11.4%
44.    Fear of others learning of abortion    (255)    5.5%    9.4%    8.2%    42.0%    34.9%
 
45.    Fear of making decisions    (245)    6.9%    21.6%    23.3%    28.2%    20.0%
46.    Fear for unknown reasons    (245)    6.1%    16.3%    20.8%    28.6%    28.2%

 
AFTER MY ABORTION, I EXPERIENCED:    

(N)
   

Strongly  Disagree
                  Strongly

Agree
1.    Nightmares    (241)    16.2%    22.4%    14.9%    28.6%    17.8%
2.    Insomnia    (243)    15.2%    25.5%    14.4%    25.5%    19.3%
3.    Flashbacks to the abortion    (249)    8.0%    18.1%    10.4%    35.3%    28.1%
4.    Hysterical outbreaks    (244)    11.1%    25.4%    12.7%    22.5%    28.3%
 
5.    Uncontrollable weeping    (242)    5.8%    14.5%    9.9%    35.5%    34.3%
6.    Suicidal feelings    (244)    12.3%    22.5%    9.4%    24.2%    31.6%
7.    Greater closeness toward my lover    (242)    51.7%    29.8%    9.1%    7.0%    2.5%
8.    A loss of self-confidence    (249)    2.4%    9.2%    12.9%    38.2%    37.3%
9.    A loss of self-esteem    (254)    1.2%    5.9%    10.6%    38.2%    44.1%
     
10.    A loss of dignity    (251)    1.2%    8.0%    10.4%    42.2%    38.2%
11.    A general sense of loss    (253)    1.6%    4.3%    7.9%    42.3%    43.9%
12.    Greater self-awareness    (237)    36.3%    27.8%    19.0%    11.8%    5.1%
 
13.    Hallucinations related to abortion    (233)    30.0%    41.6%    13.7%    6.9%    7.7%
14.    Eating disorders such as bulimia anorexia, or binge eating.    (241)    22.4%    31.5%    7.5%    20.3%    18.3%
15.    A general sense of emptiness    (248)    1.6%    7.7%    7.3%    42.7%    40.7%
16.    A loss of sympathy for others    (242)    16.5%    22.7%    21.5%    22.7%    16.5%
 
17.    A compulsion to be a perfect mother    (231)    10.0%    19.0%    21.2%    24.7%    25.1%
18.    An inability to keep jobs    (232)    27.6%    33.6%    14.2%    15.9%    8.6%
19.    A loss of concentration    (236)    8.9%    22.5%    21.2%    29.2%    18.2%
20.    A difficulty in maintaining and developing personal relationships    (246)    9.3%    19.5%    14.2%    30.1%    26.8%

 
AFTER MY ABORTION, I BECAME:    

(N)
   

Strongly  Disagree
                  Strongly

Agree
1.    Preoccupied with thoughts of death.    (243)    14.4%    29.6%    13.2%    20.6%    22.2%
2.    Preoccupied with thoughts of the child I could have had.    (252)    5.6%    12.7%    10.3%    34.9%    36.5%
3.    Excessively interested in pregnant women.    (243)    21.0%    33.7%    15.2%    17.7%    12.3%
4.    Excessively interested in babies.    (244)    18.9%    28.3%    15.2%    19.3%    18.4%

 
NEGATIVE FEELINGS ABOUT MY ABORTION BECAME WORSE:    

(N)
   

Strongly  Disagree
                  Strongly

Agree
1.    On the due date of pregnancy.    (238)    10.9%    25.6%    20.6%    21.8%    21.0%
2.    On the anniversary of the abortion.    (235)    11.5%    17.4%    19.6%    26.4%    25.1%
3.    During a later pregnancy.    (199)    16.1%    18.1%    11.1%    28.6%    26.1%
4.    At the birth of a later child.    (200)    19.5%    21.0%    10.5%    23.0%    26.0%
5.    At the time of a later miscarriage.    (151)    33.8%    28.5%    10.6%    11.3%    15.9%
6.    When I later tried to get pregnant.    (181)    24.3%    24.3%    11.0%    19.9%    20.4%
7.    When exposed to pro-life propaganda.    (242)    8.3%    9.9%    5.0%    38.8%    38.0%
8.    When exposed to pro-choice propaganda.    (227)    10.6%    15.0%    9.3%    31.3%    33.9%
9.    When exposed to information in the mass media about fetal development.    (239)    7.1%    8.4%    7.9%    34.3%    42.3%

 
AFTER MY ABORTION:    

(N)
   

Strongly  Disagree
                  Strongly

Agree
1.    I felt more in touch with my emotions.    (247)    37.7%    36.4%    14.2%    6.1%    5.7%
2.    I felt a need to block out and stifle my feelings.    (250)    3.2%    6.8%    10.8%    35.2%    44.0%
3.    I needed to "force" myself to be happy.    (250)    2.0%    10.8%    17.6%    38.8%    30.8%
4.    I felt unable to grieve.    (248)    8.5%    17.7%    13.7%    35.1%    25.0%
5.    My attitude toward life became more callused or hardened.    (245)    5.3%    11.4%    17.6%    35.5%    30.2%
6.    I felt more in control of my life.    (244)    41.8%    41.4%    9.4%    3.7%    3.7%
7.    I started losing my temper more easily.    (245)    5.3%    14.3%    21.2%    35.1%    24.1%
8.    I became more violent when angered.    (246)    10.6%    26.4%    15.4%    26.8%    20.7%
9.    I began to drink more heavily.    (244)    27.0%    27.5%    9.0%    19.3%    17.2%

 
     If so, would you describe yourself as having become an alcoholic?    (107)    Yes    No    Unsure
27.1%    50.5%    22.4%

 
10.    I began to use, or increased my use of drugs.    

(N)
   

Strongly  Disagree
                  Strongly

Agree
(234)    33.8%    20.5%    5.1%    21.4%    19.2%

 
     If so, would you describe yourself as having become addicted?    (106)    Yes    No    Unsure
25.5%    61.3%    13.2%

 
     

(N)
   

Strongly  Disagree
                  Strongly

Agree
11.    Because of my abortion experience, I underwent a dramatic personality change.    (240)    6.7%    15.4%    26.7%    26.7%    24.6%
     If so, the change was for the better.

(1 - worse, 5 - better)
   (155)    61.3%    18.1%    12.9%    4.5%    3.2%
12.    I experienced a radical change in my ideals and moral beliefs.    (237)    8.4%    17.7%    29.5%    21.5%    22.8%

 

Section 4
Answer the following questions by checking the appropriate box or filling in the blank space as required.
          (N)    Yes    No    Unsure
1.    Was there a time after your abortion when you would have considered yourself pro-choice?    (250)    46.0%    36.8%    17.2%
2.    Was there a time after your abortion when you would have encouraged or supported a woman in similar circumstances to consider abortion?    (252)    31.7%    54.0%    14.3%
3.    Have you ever regretted having had the abortion?    (251)    94.0%    3.2%    2.8%
4.    Have you ever had a waking or sleeping visitation from the aborted child?    (248)    17.7%    73.0%    9.3%
     If so, was the mood of the visitation    ( 46 )    vengeful or    forgiving?

23.9%
   74.1%

 
          

(N)
   Yes    No    Unsure
5.    Did you ever talk to the aborted child prior to the abortion?    

(249)
   32.1%    61.8%    6.0%
6.    Did you ever talk to the aborted child after the abortion?    

(248)
   48.8%    45.6%    5.6%
7.    Did your relationship with your sexual partner come to an end after the abortion?    

(248)
   66.1%    31.0%    2.8%

 
     If so, how soon after the abortion ?

(N = 166)
   within 1 month    within 6 months    a year or more
     55.4%    22.9%    21.7%

 
          (N)    Yes    No    Unsure
8.    Did you experience greater irregularity of menstrual periods after your abortion?    (249)    33.7%    55.8%    10.4%
9.    Did you frequently experience heavy bleeding after your abortion?    (250)    41.2%    50.4%    8.4%
10.    Did you experience pain in the cervix or abdomen?    (249)    58.2%    31.3%    10.4%
11.    Did you experience an increased sense of pain during intercourse?    (247)    33.2%    49.0%    17.8%
12.    Did you experience a loss of pleasure from intercourse?    (248)    58.5%    28.2%    13.3%
13.    Did you develop an aversion to sexual intercourse or become sexually unresponsive?    (247)    46.6%    38.5%    15.0%
14.    Did you become promiscuous after your abortion?    (246)    42.7%    51.6%    5.7%
15.    Did you experience greater fear of becoming pregnant when waiting for each period to begin?    (246)    48.8%    45.5%    5.7%
16.    Did you have your self surgically sterilized in order to avoid the risk of needing another abortion?    (250)    8.8%    90.4%    0.8%
17.    Did you ever experience any false pregnancies after your abortion?    (247)    24.7%    68.4%    6.9%
18.    Did you attempt to atone for your abortion by conceiving a "replacement pregnancy?"    (245)    28.6%    62.9%    8.6%

 
     If so, how long after your abortion did you become pregnant again? (IN MONTHS)     (N=76)    

Months
1-6    7-12    13-24    25-36    OVER 36
15.8%    28.9%    15.7%    11.8%    27.6%

 
     (N)    Yes    No    Unsure
19.    Did you ever attempt suicide?    (248)    28.2%    70.2%    1.6%

 
     If so, how many times?    One    Two    Three    Four    Over Four
46.8%    30.6%    16.1%    0%    6.5%

 
          (N)    Yes    No    Unsure
20.    Were you ever physically abused as a child?    (248)    20.6%    71.4%    8.1%
21.    Were you ever sexually abused as a child?    (247)    24.3%    65.6%    10.1%
22.    Did you ever abuse your children before your abortion?    (193)    2.1%    96.9%    1.0%
23.    Did you ever emotionally abuse your children before your abortion?    (190)    4.2%    92.6%    3.2%
24.    After your abortion, did you experience a strong feeling of relief?    (248)    37.9%    49.6%    12.5%

 
     If so, did it last ...

(N =95)
   weeks    months    or years?
60.0%    12.6%    25.3%

 
     (N)    Yes    No    Unsure
25.    After your abortion, did you experience any negative reactions or ambivalent feelings?    (253)    89.3%    2.0%    8.7%

 
     If so, when did you experience the first of your negative or ambivalent feelings? (N = 228)    Immediately    Within 6 months    After a year or more
64.5%    18.9%    16.7%

 
     If so, when did you experience the majority(or worst) of your negative feelings?

(N = 222)
   Immediately    Within 6 months    After a year or more
21.2%    18.5%    60.4%

 
     (N)    Yes    No    Unsure
26.    Do you feel fully reconciled with your abortion experience today?    (251)    31.9%    51.0%    17.1%
27.    Knowing where your life is today, did your abortion improve your life?    (253)    5.9%    71.9%    22.1%

 

Section 5:
If you have never experienced any negative or uncertain feelings about your abortion, you may stop here.
THANK YOU for your valuable participation.
          

(N)
   Mild    Moderate    Severe    Very Severe
1.    Overall, how severe were the emotional aftereffects of your abortion?    

(246)
   5.3%    23.6%    41.5%    29.7%

 
          

(N)
   Yes    No    Unsure
2.    Was there any time during which your

reactions were so severe that you were unable to function normally at home, work, or in personal relationships?
   

(244)
   55.3%    34.8%    9.8%

 

 
 
 
     If so, how long did this disability last?    

MONTHS

1-6
   7-12    13-24    25-36    >36

41.5%
   7.6%    12.2%    12.2    26.4

 
     

(N)
   Yes    No    Unsure
3.    Would you describe yourself as self-destructive?    (245)    36.7%    50.6%    12.7%
4.    Did you undergo a nervous breakdown at some time after your abortion?    

(241)
   20.3%    63.1%    16.6%
5.    Were you ever hospitalized for psychological treatment because of the abortion?    (244)    10.2%    89.8%    --
6.    Was there a period of time during which you denied the existence of any doubts or negative feelings about your abortion?    

(245)
   62.9%    24.1%    13.1%

 

 
     If so, for how long?

Avg: 63.1 mos. (N = 124)
   

MONTHS

1-6
   7-12    13-24    25-36    >36

24.2%
   9.7%    8.0%    8.0    50.0%

 
     

(N)
   Yes    No    Unsure
7.    Despite your negative feelings, do you still believe the choice to have an abortion was the right thing to do?    

(247)
   2.8%    86.6%    10.5%
     If not, was there a time after recognizing your negative feelings during which would have still insisted that you had done the right thing?    

(214)
   19.2%    61.2%    19.6%

 
     If so, for how long?

Avg: 4.6 yrs. (N = 37)
   

YEARS

1
   2    3    4    5    >5

32.4%
   16.2%    8.1%    5.4%    18.9%    18.9%

 
     

YEARS
8.    How long did it take for you to begin to reconcile yourself to your abortion experience?    

<1
   1-2    3-5    6-10    >10
     Avg: 7.5 yrs. (N = 184)    

6.5%
   11.4%    25.6    35.3    21.2%

 
     

(N)
   Yes    No    Unsure
9.    Do you feel fully reconciled with your abortion experience today?    

(241)
   31.9%    48.5%    20.3%
10.    Has abortion made your life worse?    

(238)
   60.9%    16.4%    22.7%

 
11. Place a check mark next to whichever of the following persons you went to for help in coping with your negative feelings, and check whether or not they were helpful.
(N)    Talked with:    was Helpful    Not Helpful    Uncertain
(86)    psychologist/psychiatrist    38.5%    58.1%    3.5%
(63)    social worker/counselor    41.3%    57.7%    1.6%
(92)    clergy    68.5%    31.5%    0.0%
(69)    parent(s)    36.2%    62.3%    1.4%
(145)    husband/boyfriend(s)    46.9%    49.0%    4.0%
(144)    friends    60.4%    38.2%    1.4%
(88)    post-abortion counseling group    90.9%    8.0%    1.1%
(45)    other : __________    80.0%    17.8%    2.2%
Among the most frequent listed "other" were religious references to God, Jesus, the bible, and prayer (39%).Also listed were sister, aunt, and bartender, nurse, and pro-life person.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 09:44:32 PM by Phoenix »

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2009, 09:56:36 PM »
All right. I'll bite, albeit warily.

To Those in Favor of Allowing Abortion:
- What about people who use abortion as birth control?

If I were going to be against things because people with different morals than mine might use them to do bad things, I would have been crusading against the child support system years ago. It falls on the same lines as, "I may not like what you say. I may in fact loathe it, but I will - I will - defend your right to say it." The right to choose includes the right to make choices that I may not agree with, but it's still a right. In an ideal world, there would be better education and supportive families for, say, girls who get pregnant in high school.

And, in an ideal world, there would be better support for reproductive control. More affordable birth control, better condoms - how about birth control for men? That's still not widespread enough yet.

- If you are okay with terminating the life because it's "on someone else's property" and "it isn't human yet"; how do you reconcile this with your view on animal rights? (i.e. fetus = not human = animal = animal murder)

No. Stop. Back up. I am not 'okay' with any of it. I am not 'okay' with abortion. I think it's a terrible choice to have to make, and I think nobody should ever have to face it. I think every child should be planned, and I think every infant should have a loving, safe home to go home to. This is not the case.

Animals have no rights. I think we shouldn't hurt them gratuitously, but I really don't care how many chickens a year KFC kills. The only reason I might care is because of the statistics of how much of that potential food goes to waste. I have three cats. I love them dearly(even the kitten, who is a hellbeast and seems to be in desperate need of kitty ritalin). However, if I really needed to eat, I wouldn't really hesitate to trap and eat a feral cat. It's just that simple.

Why not my own cats? Same reason I wouldn't kill and eat a person I've lived with for about 5 years - because I love them. I don't love a fetus - I just don't.

- Do you believe in a soul?  If so, how can you know the unborn child doesn't have a soul?

Yes, and moot question: I'm a reincarnist. For all I know they do have a soul, but that doesn't really have much bearing on what's done with their physical body. This whole thing ties into my own personal belief system that I won't go into. I am not Christan, and I'm thinking this is more suited to Christians.

- Why should the woman get the decision solely on whether or not to abort the child, when the man is equally responsible if she chooses to keep it?

There is no biological mechanism by which the man is forced to take responsibility. Not so for mommy.

- Typical trite "woman's body" arguments aside (which are more of a slogan than an actual justification); do you believe abortion is justified based on the fetus not being self-aware (or conscious, sentient, etc.) yet?  And if so, what about people who suffer from certain mental illness or reach a certain degree of senility?  Is it possible to support Abortion and not Euthanasia?

I support removal of the fetus.* We do not currently have the technology to keep a newly-conceived embryo alive outside of the mother's womb. We hardly have the technology in some cases to keep a newborn, full term child alive outside of the mother's womb. Not to mention that euthanasia is dealing with an entirely different set of (I use this term with the utmost sarcasm) victims. The elderly have generally contributed something to the world around them (whether that something is worthwhile is not up to me). Note the difference between already have and potentially could, the latter being the argument that's usually used in favor of anti-choice laws.

I think the fact that pro-choice advocates are often asked about eugenics is a telling sign. It speaks of a misconception that the anti-abortion crowd has done its best to disseminate. Let me clear it up right now: I am not 'pro-life', but I am not anti-life because I don't agree with those who identify as pro-life (a misnomer, but I won't get into that). I am pro-choice. I am not pro-abortion. I think abortion is an awful thing, and if I could do away with the need for it, I would. However, I cannot - so I feel that those women who feel that an abortion is the appropriate step for them deserve to have the option open to them. This does not make me pro-abortion, this does not make me a murderer. This does not make me a bad person.

* Actually, that's an amazingly oversimplified statement of my stance. I support the right of a woman to choose to remove a fetus from her body that she does not want, at any point in the pregnancy. If the fetus can survive on its own without the mother, hooray. Even better if the mother chooses to carry the fetus to term and then put it up for adoption. However, I do not support the wanton destruction of a potential life, and support Other Means as well as the option to abort.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2009, 10:00:17 PM »
You obviously didn't read the link with extensive psychological questions and the responses of women to them.

It's further pointless to give statistics, since people can't be bothered to look over the link provided. The questions were extensive, and proved that the larger number of women did experience various issues, than didn't.


Statistics that you didn't bother to read:

First of all, please do not make assumptions on what I did or did not read. Thank you.

Secondly, I did read your link, and I responded thus earlier in the thread:

Quote
Quote
Study on the psychological impact of abortions:

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/after_abortion_psychological_rea.asp

Again, you cite a biased reference.

This was a survey, nothing even remotely resembling an extensive psychological study with parameters, co-factors, blind subjects and the like. And a mere cursory read of the questions provided in the survey (which was given to 260 women seeking counseling services from three pro-life religious organizations) reveals a severe bias on the part of the authors, and the questions are horrifically designed to produce the desired response. (i.e. Yes, having an abortion was a traumatic experience that scarred me for life). Any reputable mental health agency would laugh those questions and the way they were presented out of their offices.

Simply the fact that you cite this poorly executed, poorly sampled, unscientific, biased survey as evidence to back your claims just lends credence to my argument that you cannot back up your claims with anything other than your opinion.

Offline Kotah

Re: Abortion
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2009, 10:32:40 PM »
Let's all simmer down guys. We all want to debate this, and none of us want the thread to be locked.

This is the main reason why I am pro-choice:
Back ally abortion deaths.

If you need a reason more then that....

Offline Phoenix

Re: Abortion
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2009, 10:33:42 PM »
You win. Want a cookie?

I have nothing more to say to you or about statistics. Thanks and have a good night.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 10:36:47 PM by Phoenix »

Offline Phoenix

Re: Abortion
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2009, 10:36:29 PM »
Let's all simmer down guys. We all want to debate this, and none of us want the thread to be locked.

This is the main reason why I am pro-choice:
Back ally abortion deaths.

If you need a reason more then that....

You should make every crime legal so that people won't die while trying to get away with it? This is not a logical argument. Make theft legal so that when people do it, they don't take unnecessary risks and thus die or injure themselves? Make rape legal so that no woman will be killed so that she can't identify her rapist?

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2009, 10:39:19 PM »
Let's all simmer down guys. We all want to debate this, and none of us want the thread to be locked.

This is the main reason why I am pro-choice:
Back ally abortion deaths.

If you need a reason more then that....

This seems more of a legality concern than a moralistic concern, but I wholeheartedly agree. There is no substitute for quality reproductive care, including abortion services.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2009, 10:40:51 PM »
Things that are made legal are forced to give some level of quality or suffer prosecution - so yes, Kotah's argument is logical. Look at the prohibition on alcohol in America's past. It meant that alcohol was only available illegally, and it wasn't safe or pleasant to consume yet people did. After the prohibition was lifted, the quality increased, because it had to.   

Offline Phoenix

Re: Abortion
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2009, 10:46:06 PM »
Things that are made legal are forced to give some level of quality or suffer prosecution - so yes, Kotah's argument is logical. Look at the prohibition on alcohol in America's past. It meant that alcohol was only available illegally, and it wasn't safe or pleasant to consume yet people did. After the prohibition was lifted, the quality increased, because it had to.

Again, this argument can be used for so many things. Should be legalize meth so that labs don't explode?

Should we legalize poisons so that people don't have to drive their children into ponds?

Where does the argument of protecting the criminal end? Particularly if you are of the view that abortion is murder, to begin with. Do we legalize murder by poison, so that murderers don't risk a gun backfiring on them?

I suppose the idea works if you don't believe that having a back alley abortion is murder anyway, but that argument doesn't really work for me.

There are a few things that may be justified by the "make it legal so that people don't get hurt doing it illegally," but murdering someone else isn't one of them, in my opinion. If you're that determined to kill someone, then I think that dying may very well be the risk you'll have to take.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2009, 10:50:50 PM »
Things that are made legal are forced to give some level of quality or suffer prosecution - so yes, Kotah's argument is logical. Look at the prohibition on alcohol in America's past. It meant that alcohol was only available illegally, and it wasn't safe or pleasant to consume yet people did. After the prohibition was lifted, the quality increased, because it had to.

I think the government learned its lesson with prohibition, and you see the results now with cigarettes; they think you shouldn't smoke, so they tax the hell out of cigs instead of making them outright illegal.

In all honesty, though, that sort of nannying grates on me. I don't really want the government deciding what I should put into and take out of my body any more than I want them deciding what I put into and take out of my fridge every day.

Offline Valerian

Re: Abortion
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2009, 10:51:47 PM »
Again, this argument can be used for so many things. Should be legalize meth so that labs don't explode?

Should we legalize poisons so that people don't have to drive their children into ponds?

Where does the argument of protecting the criminal end? Particularly if you are of the view that abortion is murder, to begin with. Do we legalize murder by poison, so that murderers don't risk a gun backfiring on them?

I suppose the idea works if you don't believe that having a back alley abortion is murder anyway, but that argument doesn't really work for me.

There are a few things that may be justified by the "make it legal so that people don't get hurt doing it illegally," but murdering someone else isn't one of them, in my opinion. If you're that determined to kill someone, then I think that dying may very well be the risk you'll have to take.
Repeated because it's good advice: simmer down.

Have you read the logical fallacies thread?  You've committed at least two such fallacies in each of your last several posts here.  Let's try to keep this at the level of civilized debate rather than a contest to see who can be the loudest and most sarcastic.

Offline Kotah

Re: Abortion
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2009, 10:56:34 PM »
And you are moralizing that abortion is murder rather then a woman's choice.

Abortions are going to happen if we want them or not.
Would you rather have the girl die in a back ally, or receive proper medical care?

Drug use is going to happen if we want it or not.
The safe syringe exchange program has reduced the spread of std's through IV drug use. There are people using heroin that have sex. Those people then might have sex, with say, your 16 year old daughter and give her aids. All because of a dirty needle.

Teenagers are going to have sex, if we want them to or not.
Do you want them to have adequate knowledge when they do so? or just wait for them to contract something, or get pregnant, before we decide that they should hand out condoms in schools?
 
The point isn't to control the problem, it is to lessen the degree of backfire.

Edited because this thread needs a kitten.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 11:00:24 PM by Kotah »

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2009, 10:58:39 PM »
Things that are made legal are forced to give some level of quality or suffer prosecution - so yes, Kotah's argument is logical. Look at the prohibition on alcohol in America's past. It meant that alcohol was only available illegally, and it wasn't safe or pleasant to consume yet people did. After the prohibition was lifted, the quality increased, because it had to.

A good point. In fact, the first laws prohibiting abortion were passed precisely because women were dying at the hands of unlicensed doctors providing abortion services, and in a misguided attempt to prevent those deaths, abortions were outlawed in the 19th century. Prior to that time, abortions were perfectly legal in many states, and abortifacients could even be seen advertised in newspapers.

Strangely, the concern over the fetus seemed to be absent, as the concerns were for the welfare of the mothers only. The change in focus from the mother to the fetus seems to be a 20th century invention.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2009, 11:09:56 PM »
Quote
Again, this argument can be used for so many things. Should be legalize meth so that labs don't explode?

Should we legalize poisons so that people don't have to drive their children into ponds?

Where does the argument of protecting the criminal end? Particularly if you are of the view that abortion is murder, to begin with. Do we legalize murder by poison, so that murderers don't risk a gun backfiring on them?

I suppose the idea works if you don't believe that having a back alley abortion is murder anyway, but that argument doesn't really work for me.

There are a few things that may be justified by the "make it legal so that people don't get hurt doing it illegally," but murdering someone else isn't one of them, in my opinion. If you're that determined to kill someone, then I think that dying may very well be the risk you'll have to take.

If legalising drugs is a way to divert money away from drug barons and back into the main economy then yes. How is depriving a drug baron of funds 'protecting the criminal'?

As for the poison, there are many that are legal right now. What sort do you mean? Be more specific.

Legalising murder is not something I am in favour of, but my view of murder and yours don't seem to mesh. A mother killing a foetus (or more correctly, having it killed) is not something she should be penalised for. She should have every option open to her, with abortion being the last one. Murder of a healthy, peaceful child or adult is more difficult to justify, and I honestly wouldn't want to. Things are not black and white, as your argument seems to be painted.

Kotah's argument is one that supports and protects the mother and the surgeon. Options and freedom of choice is what I am in favour of. Aborting a foetus is not a new concept. Doing it in a way that means the mother is safe from physical harm and legal attack is, though I think it is going to stay. 

Offline Vekseid

Re: Abortion
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2009, 11:22:43 PM »
You obviously didn't read the link with extensive psychological questions and the responses of women to them.

Which would be wise, since it's worthless.

Quote
This survey instrument was distributed to women who had contact with WEBA, Victims of Choice, or Last Harvest Ministries.

Self-selected surveys are worse than useless for gathering statistics. Useless would be something that was clearly damaged, enough for anyone making a decision to throw out as erroneous. These surveys are worse than useless, because people like yourself cite them.

In the statistics field, this is as good as outright lying.

Quote
It's further pointless to give statistics, since people can't be bothered to look over the link provided. The questions were extensive, and proved that the larger number of women did experience various issues, than didn't.

This is false. It proves only that a large number of people who contacted these three organizations, who accepted a survey pressed to them with no selection measures detailed, suffered more than those who didn't. Considering that these organizations seem to provide support for this - no one is claiming that no one has this sort of trauma.

By citing bad statistics, you only hurt your cause. You would fare far better fighting those causes you can win.

Just as an example...


Quote
Race or ethnic origin:
White    Non-White
92.3%    7.7%

The standard deviation for a survey of ~260 people is around 6%. This result is five standards of deviation off from known data. That's insane. I saw this before I looked into their methods - when you see a discrepancy of more than two deviations, something is suspect. More than four, you might as well have printed gibberish.

You do not promote your cause by referencing bad data. If you have any involvement with these organizations, you should do your part to get better data, because then you can focus on getting specific problems - for example, people pressured into abortions - recognized and solved.

You can't win a moral victory on the back of falsehoods.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Abortion
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2009, 11:33:01 PM »
As another example of the self-selection effect:

Quote
How many weeks pregnant were you at that time?
<5    5-6    7-8    9-10    11-12    13-16    16-20    >20
7.7%    11.7%    28.3%    16.2%    21.1%    10.9%    2.4%    1.6%

A rather heavy focus on post-first trimester abortions, compared to the norm. In such a self-selected survey, you might expect that people who deliberated longer about having an abortion would have more concerns - and thus more regrets.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2009, 05:17:15 AM »
To Those in Favor of Allowing Abortion:
- What about people who use abortion as birth control?
- If you are okay with terminating the life because it's "on someone else's property" and "it isn't human yet"; how do you reconcile this with your view on animal rights? (i.e. fetus = not human = animal = animal murder)
- Do you believe in a soul?  If so, how can you know the unborn child doesn't have a soul?
- Why should the woman get the decision solely on whether or not to abort the child, when the man is equally responsible if she chooses to keep it?
- Typical trite "woman's body" arguments aside (which are more of a slogan than an actual justification); do you believe abortion is justified based on the fetus not being self-aware (or conscious, sentient, etc.) yet?  And if so, what about people who suffer from certain mental illness or reach a certain degree of senility?  Is it possible to support Abortion and not Euthanasia?

1) Then I suppose better sexual education is in place. I mean... seriously, who would go willingly for much more expensive and risky abortion, rather than use some of the usual contraception methods.

2) I suppose I don't have much of a view on animal rights. I'd agree with Trieste, that kind of put it well for me.

3) I don't believe in reincarnation. However, I think in the BBC's document Human Body I've seen that children actually become self aware in about one year of age, which is also when the brain fully develops. So, until then I wouldn't think kids have much of a soul, certainly not as a fetus.

4) Because ultimately the man can always close the door behind him and leave the mother to her destiny with the kid. I've seen this happen way too many times.

5) More of a slogan? o_O My sister had nausea from hour 0 till after the labor, lost 25kilos during her pregnancy, had failing liver, kidneys... try to tell her about a slogan. Pregnancy IS a huge stress for woman's body, because frankly, the fetus isn't much more than few cells holding together, a parasite drawing everything it needs from the host. Without the mother it can't survive on its own.

Otherwise I suppose it depends on what you define as life. What is enough to define a living? Is it breathing, some force to distribute bodily fluids and a secretion? Or is it actual awareness of the world around, enjoyment of the world around? If you said yes, then of course, fetus is alive, abortion is murder and washing your hands with a soup is genocide.

Ultimately I think that until we're able to give women an unfailing  contraception method (save for sterilization and abstinence), which we aren't now, we can hardly revoke her ultimate solution, the final "safe brake." 2 women out of 1000 get pregnant despite using hormonal contraception diligently. How many is that a year? What do you tell them? How do you justify to them that despite having taken precaution, they still end up with a child they obviously don't want?

Offline Greenthorn

Re: Abortion
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2009, 06:17:28 AM »
Another thought: In all these surveys and such, what about those who self-pay for abortions?  Or those who choose not to be a part of these surveys?

All anti-abortion sites will focus on negative aspects while pro-choice sites will focus on positive ones...it's how people get sucked into the beliefs of either.

I am totally pro-choice.  If one gets an abortion, then it's their decision, not mine.  My brother and I have this argument quite often when he visits  ::).  There are too many possibilities behind a decision to tell every single person "no, it's wrong". 

Do I like the thought of rampant abortions as a means of birth control? No, absolutely not, but there are also abortions happening for reasons such as a non-viable fetus, or one that will be born severely disfigured, or one that is the result of incest...

Offline JudeTopic starter

Re: Abortion
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2009, 07:43:47 AM »
If everyone can agree that people who use abortions as birth control and repeatedly have them are doing something wrong, why can't the country agree on a compromise position of only punishing those who use abortions as such?

A staggering fact I saw as I was reading through statistics yesterday:  in recent years, 47% of all women who have an abortion have had one before.  That means roughly half of the people who have abortions are guilty of that abuse.  This isn't a small problem by any means, despite how downplayed it is by pro-choice individuals.

Why not require sterilization or some other form of punishment after your second abortion?

Why should someone have the right to have a child later on if they've killed 2 fetuses given to them previously?

Another thought: In all these surveys and such, what about those who self-pay for abortions?  Or those who choose not to be a part of these surveys?
This would only effect the results of the statistics if for some reason there were different attitudes in the segmented population.  i.e. if people who self-pay or opt out have different statistical results than those who do not.  I don't know if either of those things would affect the result or if the statistics didn't somehow take those matters into account.

Either way if that was addressed to me and the statistics I provided, I'm gonna have to call logical fallacy on this one; moving the goal post.  You can't ask someone to provide data which has no glaring problems with it and then disregard it by raising the bar after the fact, I met your challenge.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 07:53:57 AM by Jude »

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2009, 07:53:22 AM »
Are you also in favour of sterilisation of the man involved?

Offline JudeTopic starter

Re: Abortion
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2009, 07:56:07 AM »
Are you also in favour of sterilisation of the man involved?
Possibly.  Only if there was some way to determine that the man was not willing to take care of the child in these instances as well.  If he has no say in the matter and she chooses to get her child aborted both times against his will, that wouldn't be entirely fair.  Then again, if he stayed with a woman who did that to him and continued to have sex (putting himself in that position) it could be argued he brought it upon himself.

Either way if we were to pass a law enforcing that idea, I think it would have to involve a lot of oversight, a judge to determine if it will be enforced or not based on the circumstances, etc.  It would have to be the maximum penalty; one of many options.

EDIT:  Another problem is that under the current laws she could have the child aborted without even telling him both times, suddenly he sterilized for his part in the experience?  Not really fair at all.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 07:57:52 AM by Jude »

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2009, 07:57:42 AM »
Why should someone have the right to have a child later on if they've killed 2 fetuses given to them previously?

And why not? Does having an abortion make a woman a bad mother?

Child is a lot of responsibility, time and money-consuming, something you should have when you're prepared for it and when you're ready to sacrifice a lot on the altar of your children.

If you're not then I certainly see an abortion as a lot more responsible and humane solution than delivering a baby in secrecy and toss it into a garbage in a bag, let it suffer with you through times when you don't have next to anything to eat or vent your frustrations on it, or add another baby to the creches.

Offline JudeTopic starter

Re: Abortion
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2009, 07:58:39 AM »
If you're not then I certainly see an abortion as a lot more responsible and humane solution than delivering a baby in secrecy and toss it into a garbage in a bag, let it suffer with you through times when you don't have next to anything to eat or vent your frustrations on it, or add another baby to the creches.
If those were the only options you'd have a point.  Adoption is always a possibility.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2009, 08:01:39 AM »
Of course. That's why so many newborn babies actually DO end up tossed in the garbage.