You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 04, 2016, 08:30:10 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 12144 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Salomé

Re: Abortion
« Reply #200 on: October 14, 2009, 04:27:11 PM »
Quote
I resent its use because it is an attempt to bring loaded language into a debate. 'Murder' is a dirty word.

Removing unwanted matter from the body should be the decision of the host, not random people who live six states away.

In the same way that you resent the use of the word 'murder' to describe abortion, those who view abortion as no better than murder might justifiably be offended by your use of the term "unwanted matter" to describe a human life.

And sorry, I should have clarified: by murder, I meant the legal definition of murder, which means the premeditated killing of a human being.

Quote
It boils down to when it becomes feasible for this thing, this collection of protein and enzymes and cells, to live outside the womb of another.
Can you please explain this? So are you saying you draw the line at birth? If abortion happens anytime before birth, it's acceptable?
I would still need an explanation/justification, however.

What it really boils down to is that this "unwanted matter" is viewed by some as of EQUAL moral worth as any baby you might see in the hospital, and that it deserves the same right to live. That is why these people, who argue from this perspective, view abortion as murder. Their justification for putting fetuses in the same category as babies might be that "birth" is not enough of a difference between fetuses and babies... essentially, all the things I listed in my original post. What I would like is your take on this: why it is acceptable to "remove" fetuses, but not babies? You cannot simply argue that because the fetus is attached to the mother, the mother should have full control. You must first prove that there is some quality of the fetus that sets it apart from (I suppose, makes them inferior, somehow, to) babies, and makes it okay to kill them.

I think the debate is more about whether moral relativism is "true" or not (whether morals are relative or not) rather than whether it's evil or wonderful. In any case, although the value of moral relativism as a philosophy of ethics might be debated still (and I offer NO opinion on whether it's good or bad or true or false) WHAT moral relativism is, is not debated, it's pretty clearly defined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism
. What you said sounded like moral relativism.
Quote
While there are certain things that are Just Wrong, you do not get to decide what they are for me, nor I for you.

For my murderous rampage against all those not smart enough to dye their hair brown, yes, I might be arrested. But that would be irrelevant. What I'm saying is, regardless of whether I'm arrested or not, would you be able to say, YES, my actions were justified because I was following my personal code of ethics? Or would you decide that the thing I decided to define as "Just Wrong" (in this example, anyone not a brunette), because it was NOT "Just Wrong" in your book, was...wrong?

Law follows majority belief, perhaps, but even if my actions are illegal, it doesn't say anything about the morality of them. Unless your personal sense of morality is intrinsically tied up with the idea of absolute and unconditional obedience to the law--but then you'd be contradicting what you said about everyone getting to pick their own "Just Wrong."

Legality is the reason for me too. But that doesn't make these moral arguments any less important to me; utilitarian arguments are far less effective. I mean I could say something like, "Abortion may or may not be wrong in a moral sense, but statistics show that legalized abortion will have an x number of positive effects on the economy, quality of life, etc. Therefore it should be legalized," but it wouldn't be fly. This kind of thinking just isn't popular, especially because it justifies too much of what may be "immoral," sacrificing the means for the ends.

Offline Neroon

  • Sneaky Little Weasel
  • Oracle
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Stationed with the Slug-Slaying Cavalry
  • Gender: Male
  • Beware of geeks bearing gifs
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Abortion
« Reply #201 on: October 14, 2009, 05:14:28 PM »
I think that there is a need for some people here to calm down.  Some recent posts seem to have moved from answering Jude's questions or explaining one's personal point of view and instead heve moved into an attempt to convince other to agree with the poster's beliefs.

To repeat the advice given at the start of the thread, keep it civil and if you can't post with a calm mind walk away till you can.  To make that possible, please refrain from using emotive language or from demanding another poster prove this or that.  Thanks.

Offline Chea

Re: Abortion
« Reply #202 on: October 14, 2009, 09:25:12 PM »
Personally, I'm against abortion in all cases, here's my reasoning.


First of all, I like many antiabortionists, believe that abortion is murder. Its no different than if I kicked a pregnant women down a flight of stairs and killed the child in the process. I aslo believe all children have the right to exprience life. Though I'm athiest and thus don't believe in souls, the unborn child hasn't willingly done anything that would warrant the mother to terminate it. Once you kill someone there'll never be another of the individual, that person will never know life, it'll never have a chance to do anything.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Abortion
« Reply #203 on: October 14, 2009, 09:35:08 PM »
But if we make this moral argument a bit more general instead of having it be an incredibly specific notion, the principle becomes, "It is okay to terminate human life if it is dependent on others for survival."  This is where euthanasia and outright infanticide come into play.  You can disagree with the widening of the moral criteria, but it does make you wonder why such a narrow action is okay, but if you try and broaden it at all, it isn't.

To restate what I said about this earlier (in my answers), we have the technology to keep these people alive, so people who are overly disabled, who are dependent on machines but still live, can be kept alive by technology. The difference for me between euthanasia and abortion is medical technology. I've avoided the topic of who should pay for this theoretical fetus-on-life-support and other specifics like that (the short answer is, 'it depends').

I think, if someone has an organism in their body that they do not want, they should be able to remove it. It doesn't matter if it's a tapeworm or a fetus. If people are that concerned with the life of the fetus and how sacred that life is, they can step up and keep said fetus alive. If they can't do so, that is still not the responsibility of the gestational host. Being a 'mother' takes more than donating genes, just like being a father does, and forcing someone into that responsibility is just not my cup of tea. I don't care if it's by abortion or by in situ adoption and subsequent removal.

Offline Serephino

Re: Abortion
« Reply #204 on: October 14, 2009, 09:59:31 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, the widely accepted limit for abortions is 12 weeks.  I don't find that too unreasonable.  Of course at 8 weeks a fetus has all organ systems it would need to live.  I learned a lot when doing research for my fanfic.  So if whether or not the fetus can feel pain is the cutoff point that seems to happen pretty early.

My source for all of this was  http://parenting.ivillage.com/pregnancy/0,,nc26,00.html

I do believe in souls, but I'm not really sure when it enters the body, but I don't think it happens much before birth, so that isn't a factor for me. 


Offline Kate

Re: Abortion
« Reply #205 on: October 14, 2009, 10:41:06 PM »
Quote
First of all, I like many antiabortionists, believe that abortion is murder. Its no different than if I kicked a pregnant women down a flight of stairs and killed the child in the process. I aslo believe all children have the right to exprience life. Though I'm athiest and thus don't believe in souls, the unborn child hasn't willingly done anything that would warrant the mother to terminate it. Once you kill someone there'll never  be another of the individual, that person will never know life, it'll never have a chance to do anything.
- Chea49

Belief 1: believe that abortion is murder.

Belief 2: unborn is a child = individual = person

Belief 3: unborn has a "right" to experience life (inherited from the magical world of right-dom)

Belief 4: Existance of a new human individual is more important than the quality of life of  those effected by it.

Belief 5: Soul's don't exist so one body is one individuals sole chance of life.

Belief 6: Others should share beliefs 1-4.

*

These beliefs are choices.

Some beleive otherwise and wish to live by their own beliefs.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 10:57:59 PM by Kate »

Offline Salomé

Re: Abortion
« Reply #206 on: October 15, 2009, 08:45:21 AM »
If you read over what I wrote, I was never trying to persuade anyone to change their beliefs. That's the opposite of what I want; I never even revealed my stance on this issue.

For the record, if anything I'm a libertarian more than anything else, and "pro-choice" should be my default position. But although I value personal rights and liberty, I also believe that “the right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.” I may want to support abortion, or the idea that people should have the choice concerning it, but one thing stands in my way--the niggling doubt that the fetus should not be harmed.

I was hoping that someone who was "pro-choice" could explain the reasoning behind their stance--i.e. why it's okay to kill a fetus but not a baby.

The "fetus depends on the mother for survival" argument might be compelling if the mother's life were in danger but otherwise it's just not enough to say that because of inconvenience--and I realize this is a weak word to describe the effects of pregnancy and birth on the mother--it would be permissible to terminate the life of an innocent human being. Unless you challenged this belief itself, but that comes later. That is why the following argument
Quote
...If people are that concerned with the life of the fetus and how sacred that life is, they can step up and keep said fetus alive
is not enough--unless the life of a fetus can be said to be less valuable somehow than the life of an infant, then abortion should not be left to personal choice any more than infanticide is.

Chaotic Angel, I think in a sense you have the most compelling argument. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting what you said, but if I may clarify...
So, as long as abortions are carried out at less than 12 weeks of gestation, they are acceptable, because before that, the fetus does not feel pain? Essentially that would mean that merely being human is not enough to qualify the fetus for the right to live--b/c the fetus is undoubtedly human--the fetus must also be able to feel pain, and this ability (or lack therof) to feel pain is what sets the fetus apart from babies. 

My problem with this is that (1) fetuses develop at different rates--a prematurely born baby might be less developed than a fetus--and some fetuses might be, at 11 weeks, quite able to feel pain and (2) is it enough to say that a person's ability to feel pain is what makes it wrong to kill that person? What if you kill someone painlessly? And doesn't this devalue human life, and the whole idea of the sanctity of human life?

-

Oh, and just to throw it out there:

Peter Singer makes a similar argument, and I find his reasoning to be pretty persuasive. You could argue, like Singer, that pain is what gives human the ability to make moral choices, and pick between what's right or wrong. And that that ability to make moral choices is what makes human life valuable in the first place (rather than a religious reason, like "humans are made in the image of God," or "humans have a soul," or the argument that being human, in itself, makes human life valuable). Then a fetus, because it's not morally aware, would be no more "precious" than say, the cow we kill to eat.

But Singer also believes that according to the situation, it's also acceptable to kill babies (as long as it's done in a way that minimizes suffering)--
"...the fact that a being is a human being, in the sense of a member of the species Homo sapiens, is not relevant to the wrongness of killing it; it is, rather, characteristics like rationality, autonomy, and self-consciousness that make a difference. Infants lack these characteristics. Killing them, therefore, cannot be equated with killing normal human beings, or any other self-conscious beings." While I like the consistency of this argument, I'm on the fence about it, esp. trying to argue pro-choice with it, because if these qualities Singer mentions are the criteria for the right to live, then euthanasia becomes acceptable. And I'm also forced to question why this level of self-consciousness, that we have, is enough, but that level is not? It just strikes me as too arbitrary.

Offline Kenshin

Re: Abortion
« Reply #207 on: October 20, 2009, 11:13:56 PM »
When was there even a mention that it was the government's decision?
You have me there, as there was no mention. Although I was talking about it being a law against abortion.

Offline Kenshin

Re: Abortion
« Reply #208 on: October 20, 2009, 11:17:09 PM »
We do not have the right to police other nations in their laws, no matter what Dubya tried to say.

Similarly, I do not believe that I have the right to police what other women do with their bodies. It is not advocating murder - it is called 'pro-choice', not 'pro-abortion'. I am also not trying to jump on you, Salomé, but I do not have to justify my stances by your morality. While there are certain things that are Just Wrong, you do not get to decide what they are for me, nor I for you.
Hm, I said I was pro abortion because I couldn't remember "pro choice" at the time. My apologies.

Offline Kenshin

Re: Abortion
« Reply #209 on: October 20, 2009, 11:22:18 PM »
Personally, I'm against abortion in all cases, here's my reasoning.


First of all, I like many antiabortionists, believe that abortion is murder. Its no different than if I kicked a pregnant women down a flight of stairs and killed the child in the process. I aslo believe all children have the right to exprience life. Though I'm athiest and thus don't believe in souls, the unborn child hasn't willingly done anything that would warrant the mother to terminate it. Once you kill someone there'll never be another of the individual, that person will never know life, it'll never have a chance to do anything.
So you have created a maxim not to ever kill an unborn child? I think most things under any circumstance are feasible, even murder. My question out of general curiosity is, do you think it is ok for the women to make their own decision about their own baby? I think people should be able to make their own decisions personally. I have heard some stories about abortions that made me sick, however it was their choice and I do not think that should be denied to them.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

  • Sexual Deviant
  • Dame
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2008
  • Location: Between the dark places in the world
  • Gender: Female
  • Don't tell the pirate that I'm under his bed. . .
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 2
Re: Abortion
« Reply #210 on: October 22, 2009, 10:38:00 AM »
My opinions of abortion are. . .conflicted.  One upon a time I was a Christian and solid die hard antiabortionist.  I was in college in the 8th grade and writing papers for my Freshman English one and two classes 10 plus pages long on the wrongness of abortion.  I believed it was worse than murder.  At least if you snatched someone off the street and killed them they'd have a chance to fight back but the unborn baby doesn't even get that. 

But now. . .  Now I am a Pagan and I still believe in the sanctity of life.  I still feel that abortion is wrong and sometimes would liken it to murder.  But here's the difference.  Now when my daughter is grown and if she has an unwanted pregnancy that's her choice.  I will stick by her choice.  I would never get an abortion but I also wouldn't stop people who want one.  At my Christian stage I would have called for the mother to go to jail for murder.  It is the mothers choice.  And it hurts my heart.

As for the rape victim.  I have a friend who is the product of rape and in her own words.

"My mother descided to keep me because I was alive.  My mom loves me.  She is happy that I was born."

She is a sweet woman and I love her to death.  She has two beautiful children.  The world would be a little less bright if she were never born.

Offline Saffron

  • ღ Your Designer Drug ღ Myobi's Hither and Thither Girl ღ
  • Dame
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2008
  • Location: ღ I would have you, right here on this desk, until you begged for mercy twice. ღ
  • Gender: Female
  • ღ Twice. ღ
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 6
Re: Abortion
« Reply #211 on: October 22, 2009, 11:34:08 AM »
- What about people who use abortion as birth control?
I don't agree with using abortion as a method of birth control, but I won't take away your right to do so. It is an extremely taxing experience on both the mental and physical health of the woman, if someone would rather put themselves through an invasive, painful, expensive procedure, than use a more 'normal' type of birth control, that is their choice. Kind of a 'I don't agree with what you're saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.'

- If you are okay with terminating the life because it's "on someone else's property" and "it isn't human yet"; how do you reconcile this with your view on animal rights? (i.e. fetus = not human = animal = animal murder)
I don't agree that it is terminating a life. It is terminating a potential life, and I don't see it as being anything at all. It is a potential child... not an animal. I do believe it's still human, by the way.

- Do you believe in a soul?  If so, how can you know the unborn child doesn't have a soul?
Yes I believe in souls, and I would believe that the fetus has a soul once it has thought. If the pregnancy were terminated after that point, I believe that the same thing would happen to the soul as might happen to might if I passed on... it is renewed in another being.

- Why should the woman get the decision solely on whether or not to abort the child, when the man is equally responsible if she chooses to keep it?
When the man can carry the child in his body for half of the pregnancy, he can have a say in what happens to the fetus. Though the man did help to create the child, he has nothing to do with caring for it, carrying it, and watching his body be taken over by something he may or may not want, before it is born. When the man can take over the pregnancy at the halfway mark, I'll happily let him decide what happens... before then, it's my body, and my decision.

- Typical trite "woman's body" arguments aside (which are more of a slogan than an actual justification); do you believe abortion is justified based on the fetus not being self-aware (or conscious, sentient, etc.) yet?  And if so, what about people who suffer from certain mental illness or reach a certain degree of senility?  Is it possible to support Abortion and not Euthanasia?
If the fetus can function outside of the womb, then I would suggest it be put on some sort of support system until it can fully survive on its own. As long as it is dependent on the woman's body, it's her responsibility to decide what happens to it.
And yes I do believe it is possible to support one and not the other. I don't agree with euthanasia for those with metal disabilities, because the decision was made to take on the responsibility of a child by their parents. Just as with anything else, when parents pass on, we have family and institutions to take the responsibility, for a price. Once the decision has been made to bring a child into the world, it's a little late to go back on it. I can understand pulling the plug on those who are on life-support, if it is the best decision, I could even understand euthanasia for those who are suffering, it is often better to see someone go peacefully than to watch them suffer for too long. But just because of a mental disability... I don't think so.

Online Doomsday

Re: Abortion
« Reply #212 on: October 22, 2009, 12:05:27 PM »
I'm under the opinion that a lot of pro-lifers are either thinly-veiled misogynists or un-conscious misogynists.

Online Doomsday

Re: Abortion
« Reply #213 on: October 22, 2009, 12:07:11 PM »
- Chea49

Belief 1: believe that abortion is murder.

Belief 2: unborn is a child = individual = person

Belief 3: unborn has a "right" to experience life (inherited from the magical world of right-dom)

Belief 4: Existance of a new human individual is more important than the quality of life of  those effected by it.

Belief 5: Soul's don't exist so one body is one individuals sole chance of life.

Belief 6: Others should share beliefs 1-4.

*

These beliefs are choices.

Some beleive otherwise and wish to live by their own beliefs.

Except by legal definition murder is the unlawful taking of a life. You can argue that fetuses are 'alive', but because abortion is legal, it is not murder in any way. In this debate murder is nothing more than a loaded word.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Abortion
« Reply #214 on: October 22, 2009, 12:12:29 PM »
Except by legal definition murder is the unlawful taking of a life. You can argue that fetuses are 'alive', but because abortion is legal, it is not murder in any way. In this debate murder is nothing more than a loaded word.

As a point of interest, in the Torah the word for 'murder' is the one used in the commandment - which means that lawful killing is not a sin (which is a good thing, if you read some of the punishments codified in Leviticus.)

Offline Dim Hon

  • The Horrible, Lovely Thing || The Sorcerer's Familiar || Not This || Sinners' Nadir || Desire of the Endless || More Dark In Me Than Bones || St. Fucking
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2008
  • Location: ne invoces expellere non possis
  • The Aforementioned Darkness
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 19
Re: Abortion
« Reply #215 on: October 23, 2009, 01:12:32 AM »
Do pro-life people protest about life-support machines being turned off?

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Abortion
« Reply #216 on: October 23, 2009, 01:15:57 AM »
In the US, they do.

Offline Dim Hon

  • The Horrible, Lovely Thing || The Sorcerer's Familiar || Not This || Sinners' Nadir || Desire of the Endless || More Dark In Me Than Bones || St. Fucking
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2008
  • Location: ne invoces expellere non possis
  • The Aforementioned Darkness
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 19
Re: Abortion
« Reply #217 on: October 23, 2009, 01:17:03 AM »
Hum.

Offline Morven

Re: Abortion
« Reply #218 on: October 23, 2009, 01:24:52 AM »
God put us on the earth to suffer, 'n all.

Offline Dim Hon

  • The Horrible, Lovely Thing || The Sorcerer's Familiar || Not This || Sinners' Nadir || Desire of the Endless || More Dark In Me Than Bones || St. Fucking
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2008
  • Location: ne invoces expellere non possis
  • The Aforementioned Darkness
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 19
Re: Abortion
« Reply #219 on: October 23, 2009, 01:29:07 AM »
But... but surely, people in a vegetative state are cheating. I mean, they're sleeping through their suffering. That's just not good sportsmanship.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Abortion
« Reply #220 on: October 23, 2009, 01:33:43 AM »
I know. And the social worker people don't like it if you start trying to kick them awake, either.

*mumbles something about a restraining order*

Offline Dim Hon

  • The Horrible, Lovely Thing || The Sorcerer's Familiar || Not This || Sinners' Nadir || Desire of the Endless || More Dark In Me Than Bones || St. Fucking
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2008
  • Location: ne invoces expellere non possis
  • The Aforementioned Darkness
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 19
Re: Abortion
« Reply #221 on: October 23, 2009, 01:49:19 AM »
Well that just isn't fair! You should protest.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Abortion
« Reply #222 on: October 23, 2009, 02:00:06 AM »
Protest the protesters?

Offline Dim Hon

  • The Horrible, Lovely Thing || The Sorcerer's Familiar || Not This || Sinners' Nadir || Desire of the Endless || More Dark In Me Than Bones || St. Fucking
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2008
  • Location: ne invoces expellere non possis
  • The Aforementioned Darkness
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 19
Re: Abortion
« Reply #223 on: October 23, 2009, 02:06:50 AM »
I'm trying to read that, and my brain is screaming 'Double-negative!' at me, and I can't work out what would get nullified and what would be left behind... ugh