You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 04, 2016, 10:44:01 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 12145 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #150 on: October 10, 2009, 11:35:20 PM »
Not all women report a rape. It's incredibly degrading and humiliating. It does leave mental scars that can take years to heal, but not everyone knows that have been raped. There are many cases of women being too drunk or drugged to remember. They might not know until days, weeks or months later when they are told or enough clues  come to them.

Then how would we go about allowing abortion in the case of rape?

I ran the numbers, only 1 in 1000 rapes produces a pregnancy and only half of the assailants deposit semen in the body. Only about 1 % of abortions is attributed to rape.
Quote
To make them have to bear a child that they want nothing to do with, a constant remoinder of what happened to them, growing in their womb will keep that memory very fresh in their mond. It can be seen as the rapist is still raping them every moment because the evidence is something they cannot avoid for a single moment.

If we take the "she was passed out and didn't know she was raped" example, then she won't be reminded of anything. She will feel violated yes. But I can't condone killing another human who didn't commit the offense. There are children born of rape who go on to do great things, have mothers that love them or go on to be adopted.

No one is blaming the mother for it and the father deserves to go to jail or maybe even worse. But the child is a victim too. They're not conceived in love. But at the same time, they can find it somewhere someday. 

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Abortion
« Reply #151 on: October 10, 2009, 11:42:03 PM »
Let's look at it this way, many rapists are unable to ejaculate, when a male ejaculates nervous or under stress, there are less sperm and the sperm are less healthy. When a female is ejaculated in under stress she has a lessened chance of conception. Many rapes don't even involve the male ejaculating. Then couple in the rape kit, couple in the normal chances of pregnancy failure. Your looking at maybe 10% chance. I seriously doubt, without even looking that more than 10% of rapes produce a pregnancy.

First: would love to see where those numbers are coming from, because I can't seem to find one single bit of evidence to support it.

Second: Let's take a reasonable population. A million people, right? NYC supposedly exceeds 8 million, so it seems like a million would be a good estimate for the young women of a reasonably populated area. Now, a study c. 1985 (I cannot recall the head researcher's name for the life of me) placed the statistic at 1 in 4 women between the ages of 18 and 25 as being victims of rape. Critics of that study have slammed it as being too generous in its definition of rape and placed that statistic as closer to (I think) 1 in every 20. Let's take the more conservative value: 1 in 20 women. 5% - okay, so let's take your 'less than 10%". I'm feeling magnanimous. Let's take 5% of that 5% - so we now have 0.25% of women between the ages of 18 and 25 who are raped and have the rape result in a pregnancy.

That's a population of 2,500 women. 2,500 unwanted children. It's a small percentage, but it's a lot of people. And considering that only a portion of rapes (I think I read 1 in 10 somewhere - which would mean 250 women in my hypothetical gaggle of rape victims) are reported, you're not exactly looking at an epidemic of abortions. Considering a good chunk of those women will hold the morals that make abortion inappropriate, I don't see where allowing those women to seek peace would start causing the downfall of society or whatever.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #152 on: October 10, 2009, 11:53:08 PM »
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_pregnancies_are_due_to_rape

This site talks about Pregnancy being rare and 99% preventable:
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec22/ch253/ch253c.html

This site is a pro-life one, but its one of the few I could find even mentioned pregnancy, but it gives sources:
http://www.realweb.ifastnet.com/stats.html

This site was given to me by a friend, I am reluctant to trust it because some of the numbers (such as 1/4 of women being sterile) look flat out wrong, but it mentions how most men don't ejaculate inside:
http://www.christianliferesources.com/?library/view.php&articleid=461

The rape argument for abortion is basically a moot point, because it doesn't account for 95% of the the abortions out there, that's a generous number. This argument is used to usually make the other side back down and waver on their point, if they don't waver then they're cast as insensitive and hateful towards women. But on the contrary no one in their right mind likes rape or hates women. I just don't see it as a valid reason to kill babies by the thousands when its only even accountable for 1% of the babies in the first place.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Abortion
« Reply #153 on: October 10, 2009, 11:58:39 PM »
Then how would we go about allowing abortion in the case of rape?

If we take the "she was passed out and didn't know she was raped" example, then she won't be reminded of anything. She will feel violated yes. But I can't condone killing another human who didn't commit the offense. There are children born of rape who go on to do great things, have mothers that love them or go on to be adopted.

No one is blaming the mother for it and the father deserves to go to jail or maybe even worse. But the child is a victim too. They're not conceived in love. But at the same time, they can find it somewhere someday.

 Oh, she'll notice it when her stomach starts to swell with a child. She might not have realized she was raped before, but I'm talking about when they -do- find out about it. To be forced to carry a child concieved by rape is almost as bad as being raped again because ot will go on for months instead of one time. It's real hard to get over something when the result is growing in your womb.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #154 on: October 11, 2009, 12:00:28 AM »
Oh, she'll notice it when her stomach starts to swell with a child. She might not have realized she was raped before, but I'm talking about when they -do- find out about it. To be forced to carry a child concieved by rape is almost as bad as being raped again because ot will go on for months instead of one time. It's real hard to get over something when the result is growing in your womb.

If her stomach swells that much and that's her first sign, it would probably be past the point she could abort it. Of course she would have missed periods and other things to notice.

But let me ask you, which is the worse crime raping an innocent person or killing and innocent person?

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #156 on: October 11, 2009, 12:04:36 AM »
[url=http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_people_are_willing_to_admit_that_rape_isn%27t_a_womans_fault_why_do_they_still_say_the_woman_should_have_to_keep_the_kid_like_the_kid_is_more_important_than_the_woman]http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_people_are_willing_to_admit_that_rape_isn%27t_a_womans_fault_why_do_they_still_say_the_woman_should_have_to_keep_the_kid_like_the_kid_is_more_important_than_the_woman[/url]
That's the longest URL I've seen in a while...

I answered this earlier though, if we allowed women to abort babies for only rape and health purposes, plenty of women would lie and say they had been raped. Women lie and do this already all of the time and its been reflected time and time again in cases. That's not to say there aren't real rapes and real rape victims, but there are horrible people who would rather lie and sully everyone who has really been through that, than deal with a child that's actually partly their fault.

And again, the baby is Human, the babies not at fault nor is s/he the rapist. So how can you punish them?

Online Vekseid

Re: Abortion
« Reply #157 on: October 11, 2009, 12:07:24 AM »
Let's be honest, rape isn't something your likely to forget in 9 months, its not something your likely to forget in 9 years. I know people who are 23 and were raped when they were five and they still have issues over it.

"People". That's a rather specific pair of ages for 'people'.

I know a girl who was drugged and raped for four months, morning noon and night, when she was ten. She put up with it because her family needed his money.

I know a girl whose own father raped her when she was five. She still loves him.

I know a girl who was raped by the one man she thought she could trust. It broke her in many ways.

I know a girl who was raped by her drug dealer.

I know a girl who was raped by a house guest, where revealing the rape would have led to different legal problems.

I could go on. Elliquiy has a significantly higher proportion of women who have been through such trauma, and I've seen enough of it to be sick of dehumanizing and denigrating them as you do. Do you sense a common theme, at all?

Quote
But by accepting that rape makes abortion okay you're 1. Punishing an innocent child who had nothing to do with the action committed and 2. giving those who weren't raped and out to get abortions.

You claim to know rape victims. Honestly, if you do, it's pretty clear to me that you have not the remotest bit of comprehension regarding the trauma involved. "They should always report it" - ironically, people like you are a big part of the reason it goes so underreported.

Quote
No one is blaming the victim, read what I said and find where any real victims were blamed. ...

Here, I'll highlight:

Quote
On the off chance, pretty much yeah. There are measures they take when you report a rape to make sure you don't actually get pregnant. The first thing that should happen when someone is raped is they should report it and get the rape kit stuff done. If you don't not only are you taking the chance of getting pregnant, you're taking the chance of letting the person who raped you walk away free.

1) You have no comprehension of what pregnancy entails. You would gladly beat and torture a woman - physically and emotionally - for nine months, to get your so-called 'moral' rocks off.
2) More rapes end in pregnancy than consensual sex. "Off chance"? No.
3) As I mentioned above, you have not the remotest sense of comprehension about the trauma involved and why it might go unreported.
4) 70% of conceptions end in miscarriage. What are those losses, then?

You know nothing about pregnancy, nothing about rape, but are more than happy to judge people who have gone through each.

You might as well be a preschooler trying to convince us the Earth is flat. Except that would be a lot kinder to the women reading who have been through one, two, or all of the topics discussed in this thread.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #158 on: October 11, 2009, 12:16:39 AM »
"People". That's a rather specific pair of ages for 'people'.

I know a girl who was drugged and raped for four months, morning noon and night, when she was ten. She put up with it because her family needed his money.

I know a girl whose own father raped her when she was five. She still loves him.

I know a girl who was raped by the one man she thought she could trust. It broke her in many ways.

I know a girl who was raped by her drug dealer.

I know a girl who was raped by a house guest, where revealing the rape would have led to different legal problems.

I could go on. Elliquiy has a significantly higher proportion of women who have been through such trauma, and I've seen enough of it to be sick of dehumanizing and denigrating them as you do. Do you sense a common theme, at all?

You claim to know rape victims. Honestly, if you do, it's pretty clear to me that you have not the remotest bit of comprehension regarding the trauma involved. "They should always report it" - ironically, people like you are a big part of the reason it goes so underreported.

Here, I'll highlight:

1) You have no comprehension of what pregnancy entails. You would gladly beat and torture a woman - physically and emotionally - for nine months, to get your so-called 'moral' rocks off.
2) More rapes end in pregnancy than consensual sex. "Off chance"? No.
3) As I mentioned above, you have not the remotest sense of comprehension about the trauma involved and why it might go unreported.
4) 70% of conceptions end in miscarriage. What are those losses, then?

You know nothing about pregnancy, nothing about rape, but are more than happy to judge people who have gone through each.

You might as well be a preschooler trying to convince us the Earth is flat. Except that would be a lot kinder to the women reading who have been through one, two, or all of the topics discussed in this thread.

I would like to see where I am judging people who have gone through rape (not people who lied about it). I wouldn't ever say a bad thing about a rape victim and yes I know multiple people who have gone through rapes, but that one case was stated like that just because of how I typed it, there's a girl who's four days older than me who was raped by a family member and has issues with it to this day.

It makes me sad to see that the argument against abortion boils down to rape, which is not where the argument even belongs if someone can prove that the chances are slim to none. More over it the link you posted does more to give rape a purpose than vilify it. Now people can say "its just evolution."

You don't know me, nor do you know the people I know and I assure that I have nothing but sympathy for rape victims. But I can't think of how that should effect the life of an innocent person who had nothing to do with the incident. Your response was frankly more flame than it was factual. Your quote about miscarriages has no place here because those have nothing to do with rape or abortion.

And my knowledge of pregnancy is neither demonstrated nor seen by what I have posted in this thread. Your still working on a 1 and 1000 ratio of people who actually get pregnant from rape and your still working on abortion being right, which even if it were only allowed in the case of rape, it still wouldn't be right in any other cases.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 12:19:23 AM by Odin »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Abortion
« Reply #159 on: October 11, 2009, 12:21:51 AM »
If her stomach swells that much and that's her first sign, it would probably be past the point she could abort it. Of course she would have missed periods and other things to notice.

But let me ask you, which is the worse crime raping an innocent person or killing and innocent person?

 No. She could still abort it You might not want her to, but to force her to bear a unwanted reminder of a rape is sheer torture to her mind and soul.  If it is over and done with, she can begin to heal, but  if she has to bear the child, she will be unable to start healing since the proof she was raped is inside of her every single day for months.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #160 on: October 11, 2009, 12:23:54 AM »
No. She could still abort it You might not want her to, but to force her to bear a unwanted reminder of a rape is sheer torture to her mind and soul.  If it is over and done with, she can begin to heal, but  if she has to bear the child, she will be unable to start healing since the proof she was raped is inside of her every single day for months.
No I meant that there's a law about how late in a pregnancy you can abort, I know that there are circumstances where the law is nullified. But I am not sure if that's one of them.

Online Vekseid

Re: Abortion
« Reply #161 on: October 11, 2009, 12:31:08 AM »
I would like to see where I am judging people who have gone through rape (not people who lied about it). I wouldn't ever say a bad thing about a rape victim and yes I know multiple people who have gone through rapes, but that one case was stated like that just because of how I typed it, there's a girl who's four days older than me who was raped by a family member and has issues with it to this day.

You demand that
1) Everyone who is raped report it and
2) Accept the full and complete consequences if a pregnancy has developed in the interim for whatever reason.

So long as you demand the second, the first will suffer, and you spread evil for it.

Quote
It makes me sad to see that the argument against abortion boils down to rape, which is not where the argument even belongs if someone can prove that the chances are slim to none. More over it the link you posted does more to give rape a purpose than vilify it. Now people can say "its just evolution."

...purpose? The purpose of civilization is that we take these uncomfortable facts of our existence, and deal with them. The same way we use gene therapy to deal with genetic problems, and agriculture to feed billions.

Quote
You don't know me, nor do you know the people I know and I assure that I have nothing but sympathy for rape victims. But I can't think of how that should effect the life of an innocent person who had nothing to do with the incident. Your response was frankly more flame than it was factual. Your quote about miscarriages has no place here because those have nothing to do with rape or abortion.

Watch them suffer for nine months with a constant reminder of a night of horror in their belly - and then, after the child is born, the likeness of their rapist on their face for years to come - is sympathy?

You call it good. I call it evil.

Nothing to do with rape or abortion? What do you think a miscarriage is? A magical sky pixie decides a fetus should be forcibly evacuated from its mother's womb?

Hell, even trying to draw the line between accidental miscarriage and abortion is an impossible one.

Quote
And my knowledge of pregnancy is neither demonstrated nor seen by what I have posted in this thread. Your still working on a 1 and 1000 ratio of people who actually get pregnant from rape and your still working on abortion being right, which even if it were only allowed in the case of rape, it still wouldn't be right in any other cases.

I believe abortion is the right of the mother in any and all cases. Rape doubles the issue because - more than any other right, she should also have the right to choose the father of her child.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Abortion
« Reply #162 on: October 11, 2009, 12:32:17 AM »
No I meant that there's a law about how late in a pregnancy you can abort, I know that there are circumstances where the law is nullified. But I am not sure if that's one of them.

 You notice a pregnancy at about 4-6 months. More than early enough for it to be aborted.


 This is what got me to reply:

 
Quote
I'd argue a Human life is a Human life, and the only time that life should be threatened with death is when it endangers another life. Even in cases of rape, you have to ask the question, is it the child's fault that it was conceived that way? If we kill it, we're treating the baby as a criminal. I'd rather say kill the rapist but for some reason that's not allowed either.

Also, in the case of rape, women's bodies have reactions to help fight off conception during high stress moments. Legislating an entire law on a small percentage of something that might happen is kind of bad idea. If your car goes out of control because of something such as say, a bee stinging you, you are still at fault. There's no law saying that "if a bee stings a person causing them to wreck..." because its not something that happens often.

I think the only case where unborn children should be killed is when the mother's life is in danger.

  You made the case thaty even in the case of rape, that the child shouldn't be aborted, and the unwilling mother should be forced to bear it. In your case you are not willing to make an exception against abortion even in the cae of rape. You even said that if that was the only exception, that women would be claiming to being raped so they could get abortions. So it must not be included as an exception.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Abortion
« Reply #163 on: October 11, 2009, 12:36:07 AM »
With that, you are referring to 'late term' abortions, and the exact number of weeks varies from state to state.  It is also not a law in every state.  The Supreme Court has held that bans must include exceptions for threats to the woman's life, physical health, and mental health

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #164 on: October 11, 2009, 01:22:43 AM »
I had a bit long post typed out but deleted it to say this: The problem of rape hits too close to home for me. It's nothing to do with pregnancy or abortion that I am posting here. And it has nothing to do with my stance on abortion. If you've had an abortion here, I don't agree with it, I don't like it, but it doesn't mean I don't like you, or I blame you, or I think you're a bad person. I know no one is happy with having to get an abortion.

But I don't condone rape, I don't like it, and I don't think there's any excuse for it. I think that its something sub-human and that in many instances it should be punishable by death. If you were sexually assaulted and you thought I meant to offend you, then I'm deeply sorry. If you didn't report it or couldn't I'm also sorry. I know how society treats rape victims, in some places their killed and called the instigator, in other instances they're just ridiculed and called liars and put on trial themselves. Neither is the right way to do things.

Someone I love a lot was raped, and didn't report it, and didn't see a doctor and did all of the things I said not to do here. (she later did get tested and came up clean) She's very near and dear to me and I tried to convince her but she didn't do it. Then she tried to kill herself. I on the other hand felt like there was nothing I could do to help, and I still feel like that. So don't think I don't care if someone is raped, because its a terrible thing and I don't ever think it should be taken lightly, or lied about because its disrespectful to those who have gone through it. I can guess that some of you reading this have been through some kind of sexual assault, perhaps even some of the men. Its not okay and there's no excuse for it. Ever.

I'm deeply sorry that anyone would have to go through with that and I didn't mean to offend you.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Abortion
« Reply #165 on: October 11, 2009, 01:42:16 AM »
Odin, you're certainly not a bad person I'm sure, but until you learn to state and defend your position a little less evangelically, I'm going to ignore you. You're trying to drive a point home and hitting other issues with the friendly fire.

With that, you are referring to 'late term' abortions, and the exact number of weeks varies from state to state.  It is also not a law in every state.  The Supreme Court has held that bans must include exceptions for threats to the woman's life, physical health, and mental health

The myth that all pregnant women should be thrilled to be pregnant needs to be addressed as the next step to this. Biologically, a pregnancy is pretty much a war-of-the-hormones (see gestational diabetes for a really good example) and there's really no reason why someone should be mentally happy to have a little shrimpy fetus take up residence either. The Cult of Procreation gets a bit irksome, especially with population pressures.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #166 on: October 11, 2009, 02:01:54 AM »
Odin, you're certainly not a bad person I'm sure, but until you learn to state and defend your position a little less evangelically, I'm going to ignore you. You're trying to drive a point home and hitting other issues with the friendly fire.

I don't think my views were stated in regard with religion, nor would I think it was an appropriate jump off point for this debate. (because its a debate) But you don't have to ignore me, I'm not saying anything more on the subject.

Offline jouzinka

  • Elf Guardian of the Blind Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken. Law, Hr nn, dollen i Rw
  • Lady
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2008
  • Location: Surely wielding my mad makeup skillz somewhere
  • Gender: Female
  • The E mantra: Sip, swallow, scroll, sip, swallow..
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Abortion
« Reply #167 on: October 11, 2009, 02:05:57 AM »
I'm surprised. Really, I guess I'm even more naive than I thought...

Jude was here advocating the life of fetuses that might, but might not be born if nature (or God or whatever you call it) had its own go with them, yet a born baby left to die in a dumpster doesn't concern him.

You claim to be close to a rape victim, yet you are so ready to put that particular girl through pregnancy and then possibly raising the child. That sounds absurd to me.

If I may be equally absurd, I'd say why don't we address the abortion problem from an entirely different point of view. Let's perform a vasectomy on every newborn boy. It's a reversible procedure, it would arch over the rocky years of the youth without the fear of impregnating anyone and later, when the time comes and one is in a committed relationship/marriage and WANTS children, the ducts can be sewn back together. Of course it won't eliminate all unwanted pregnancies, but it certainly will lessen their number and the number of abortions as well.

Offline Kate

Re: Abortion
« Reply #168 on: October 11, 2009, 05:12:23 AM »
Jouzinka I like where your coming from.

I beleive that the method of abortion should be humane if it is late in the pregnancy (Nothing that cause the unborn pain) ...

I'm going to through a really big spanner in the works here.

I beleive that a woman should have the "right" to have an abortion at ANY time during pregnancy, and rights of the child as protected as an individual only kick in literally when its outside her body, and this is why.

a) I beleive that the those believing the child has a right to be born which exceeds the mothers right for what she wishes of life is simply a CHOICE of an individual.  I the "mother" is a citizen with rights - the unborn is part of HER body - which like a  tattoo or piercing - she can do with as she wishes.

b) Even if we assume the unborn has a soul and also wants to LIVE - if this life was granted - what it would consume or need for a "acceptable quality of life" would entail massive consumption of other life (even if they were a vegetarian - simply by being high up on the food chain - this includes eating plant material).  Even with no population or environmental isssues - it being born isn't "adding to life" on this world,  (its changing a balance of life ... no more no less). Which balances are more "right" is subjective.

WITH current population and environmental issues a full life span would be more destructive than its own individual destruction, yes there are exceptions where it could if let live grow to become a great healer and heal the planet etc .. but in the same breath so could the MOM if she didn't have to take care of it.

c) Assuming the "soul" of the unborn wants to be born is a choice.

Souls may want to just perfect the formation of gene selection before being born in earnest (Because they are vain or because of whatever reason we don't understand) and choose to be incarnated in MANY situations where they know an abortion is fated for doing so - and when they do want to be born properly - they may choose situations where they will not be aborted.

Furthermore a soul may be wondering the earth and may have just found itself in an unborn accidentally or be "bullied" there or tricked into it in a spiral sense...

or ITSELF changes its mind - and does state this desire not to be born by influencing the emotions of the mother (many mothers state a connection to the unborn's mind/soul/whatever)

 ... perhaps their own desire to abort is an agreement made between the mother and the unborn, perhaps aborting its HER representing the unborn's wishes not her own).

None know. We all have different belief and value structures.

Believing the mothers impulses to abort is "against gods will" or "against good" or "against the will of the unborn" or "against life" or "against the living" is a choice of belief of a take on objectivity of the believer.

Insisting others should adopt this "take on objectivity" is the insister's will misplaced on another citizen.

If it was "life's will" to not have an abortion, there wouldn't BE a debate, the mother would WANT to have the child. The mothers will is the most relevant and dominate representative of "life's will" in this context.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 05:39:27 AM by Kate »

Offline JudeTopic starter

Re: Abortion
« Reply #169 on: October 11, 2009, 05:36:46 AM »
Jude was here advocating the life of fetuses that might, but might not be born if nature (or God or whatever you call it) had its own go with them, yet a born baby left to die in a dumpster doesn't concern him.
Yes, uncommon events that are completely unpreventable don't worry me in a cosmic sense.  If I saw a child in a dumpster as I was walking by I'm not gonna whistle Yankee Doodle and walk on my merry way completely unphased.

I'd really like to see you try and keep posting on this subject without taking cheap, personal shots at people and/or trying to make them out to be bad human beings in the process of arguing your point.  If you really can't post here without being offensive to people on a personal level, you shouldn't post here.  Learn to separate the ideas from the person when you're arguing political issues.  And you knew what you were saying was offensive before you clicked the post button on many occasions (as you even prefaced one of your comments with a I probably shouldn't say this).

This is a discussion on a forum about a topic.  No one here is sitting outside an abortion clinic with a sign yelling at the women going in.  I even identified as a pro-choice person; what exactly are you hoping to gain?

Woo!  Maybe if you spew enough bile my way I'll change my mind out of disgust for being associated with such vitriolic extremism!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 05:38:35 AM by Jude »

Offline jouzinka

  • Elf Guardian of the Blind Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken. Law, Hr nn, dollen i Rw
  • Lady
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2008
  • Location: Surely wielding my mad makeup skillz somewhere
  • Gender: Female
  • The E mantra: Sip, swallow, scroll, sip, swallow..
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Abortion
« Reply #170 on: October 11, 2009, 06:09:22 AM »
My main problem, Jude, is that we're all saying an A, that the number of abortions is too high and something should be done about it, but somehow this thread failed to address the B - how to bring the other half of the parenting couple to responsibility.

Both you and Odin are talking about sacrifices in one way or another, but truth be told the issue can hardly ever really touch you, because you are both men and in any case you can always turn on the heel and walk away, while pregnancy or abortion is an issue that (theoretically) touches every woman who can't run from the responsibility.

If we ban abortions and at the same time don't address the problem how bring the fathers to responsibility, it's like preaching water and drinking wine, moreover when we can't offer and infallible birth control - and excuse me, 2 per mille chance of getting pregnant for hormonal contraception is hardly an infallible birth control - we can't simply dump the problem on every single one of the women that in the case they become pregnant have hardly any helping hand!

I find that awfully unfair.

I'd really like to see you try and keep posting on this subject without taking cheap, personal shots at people and/or trying to make them out to be bad human beings in the process of arguing your point.  If you really can't post here without being offensive to people on a personal level, you shouldn't post here.  Learn to separate the ideas from the person when you're arguing political issues.  And you knew what you were saying was offensive before you clicked the post button on many occasions (as you even prefaced one of your comments with a I probably shouldn't say this).

Thank you. With your help I may even become a better person, but in the light of
Woo!  Maybe if you spew enough bile my way I'll change my mind out of disgust for being associated with such vitriolic extremism!
it sounds strange...
This is a discussion on a forum about a topic.  No one here is sitting outside an abortion clinic with a sign yelling at the women going in.  I even identified as a pro-choice person; what exactly are you hoping to gain?
Honestly? I'm just hoping to get a point across and see some empathy, but I see that it's harder than I thought.

Offline JudeTopic starter

Re: Abortion
« Reply #171 on: October 11, 2009, 06:26:57 AM »
My main problem, Jude, is that we're all saying an A, that the number of abortions is too high and something should be done about it, but somehow this thread failed to address the B - how to bring the other half of the parenting couple to responsibility.

Both you and Odin are talking about sacrifices in one way or another, but truth be told the issue can hardly ever really touch you, because you are both men and in any case you can always turn on the heel and walk away, while pregnancy or abortion is an issue that (theoretically) touches every woman who can't run from the responsibility.

If we ban abortions and at the same time don't address the problem how bring the fathers to responsibility, it's like preaching water and drinking wine, moreover when we can't offer and infallible birth control - and excuse me, 2 per mille chance of getting pregnant for hormonal contraception is hardly an infallible birth control - we can't simply dump the problem on every single one of the women that in the case they become pregnant have hardly any helping hand!

I find that awfully unfair.
So do I, and I fully support increasing the responsibility that males have towards the child by means of laws (even if nothing is done to refine the rest of the abortion laws).  To be truthful I don't know what the current responsibility is, but I always thought you were required to financially support the child as is; but I have no problem with them passing more laws to strengthen that into something more.

I've never bothered to look at the legal obligations of the father, but I know if I was ever in that position my personal obligations would be greater than what was required by law.

I don't recall ever saying anything contrary to that, and I do recall implying all of that.  So if that's the reason you've been so nasty, I haven't the slightest clue where you got that from.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 06:28:04 AM by Jude »

Offline jouzinka

  • Elf Guardian of the Blind Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken. Law, Hr nn, dollen i Rw
  • Lady
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2008
  • Location: Surely wielding my mad makeup skillz somewhere
  • Gender: Female
  • The E mantra: Sip, swallow, scroll, sip, swallow..
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Abortion
« Reply #172 on: October 11, 2009, 06:51:24 AM »
I know I can get waspish, but I personally don't think I'd get particularly nasty. If you'd people care to point me out to places where you think I was nasty or passively aggressive or whatever, I can shed some light on the 'whys.'

Offline anastacia

Re: Abortion
« Reply #173 on: October 11, 2009, 10:19:20 PM »
Against my better judgment I have decided to weigh in on this issue. I will attempt to refrain from personal attacks but since the subject of rape has come up as a common theme in this thread I feel I  must register my personal offense at the repeated reference to "those that lie about [being raped]" as if this was almost the norm, when in actuality that unconscionably callous attitude and is a major factor in why 58% of rapes [1] are estimated to go unreported each year.

I am not sure if you or someone you happen to believe has experienced being falsely accused of rape, but please do not try to weigh that against the 90,500 women in one year that were raped [2] and the estimated 52,500 women that were raped but were afraid to report the horror that was perpetrated against them fearing that she would be forced to defend herself to small minded and frighteningly insensitive people.   

As far as abortion, I believe it is completely separate issue. Until the fetus can survive outside of my body it is not a person or a child. It is 'me', and I alone will decide what happens to my body.

I am almost certain that I have more experience than many with women that have made a choice of this magnitude and whether they chose to go carry through to term or terminate, it was NEVER a choice made cavalierly or without great emotional sacrifice.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Abortion
« Reply #174 on: October 11, 2009, 10:28:14 PM »
So do I, and I fully support increasing the responsibility that males have towards the child by means of laws (even if nothing is done to refine the rest of the abortion laws).  To be truthful I don't know what the current responsibility is, but I always thought you were required to financially support the child as is; but I have no problem with them passing more laws to strengthen that into something more.

I've never bothered to look at the legal obligations of the father, but I know if I was ever in that position my personal obligations would be greater than what was required by law.

I don't recall ever saying anything contrary to that, and I do recall implying all of that.  So if that's the reason you've been so nasty, I haven't the slightest clue where you got that from.

Thing is the fraternal side of things are majorly screwed up in some states. I know of at least 3 guys in the navy who were literally screwed by the law by the fact that girl x named them as daddy and put them on the birth certificate and by the time they found out they couldn't do anything.

Some states (and nations) have some truly outdated laws dealing with fraternal responsiblity. IE.. you on the birth cert.. you're the father.. and financially responsible. (DNA testing hasn't been caught up in areas yet)