You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 08, 2016, 10:16:00 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 12162 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Abortion
« Reply #125 on: October 08, 2009, 03:52:04 PM »
Case in point: A girl I knew in College named Roulette (for obvious reasons)

Sue the parents for emotional suffering now.

Offline jouzinka

  • Elf Guardian of the Blind Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken. Law, Hr nn, dollen i Rw
  • Lady
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2008
  • Location: Surely wielding my mad makeup skillz somewhere
  • Gender: Female
  • The E mantra: Sip, swallow, scroll, sip, swallow..
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Abortion
« Reply #126 on: October 08, 2009, 03:59:40 PM »
I think Callie changed her name, that's why the remark, but I can be mistaken...

Offline Neroon

  • Sneaky Little Weasel
  • Oracle
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Stationed with the Slug-Slaying Cavalry
  • Gender: Male
  • Beware of geeks bearing gifs
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Abortion
« Reply #127 on: October 08, 2009, 04:22:46 PM »
I guess it's my turn to post something here.  If what I type comes across as a bit cranky, well blame it on the fact I've had a bloody hard day at work.  I'm not going to argue hypotheticals or make sweeping moral judgments based on any religious or antireligious feeling.  I'm not going to try and convince anyone to any point of view either.  All I want you to do is think.

That's it.  No more, no less.  Just consider, the people who get abortions, the people who decline abortions and keep an unwanted child are just that, people.  They are as complex and as wonderful as you or I, whichever decision they make.  The effects of te decision they make, be it to abort a pregancy or not to abort it are profound and nobody simply shrugs it off.  I should know, as I've had to deal with this at the sharp end.

Twenty years ago, I was engaged to be married to my first wife and thanks to that small percentage that proves condoms aren't 100% effective, she got pregnant.  She decided to abort and there was not a damn thing I could do about it.  The reason was mainly because she didn't tell me until she asked me to accompany her to the clinic.  At that point, I wasn't about to argue with her; she was in incredible emotional pain about it being terrified of what her father would say about it, despite the fact that we were to be married less than six months later.

All I did was tell her that I would be happy and honoured to care for the child but she was set on sweeping the whole affair under the carpet with an abortion.  In the face of that determination, I stood by her and supported her decision; I didn't believe- and I don't believe now- that I had a right to force my wishes on her and I've always believed that you should stand by those you love. whether you agree with what they do or not.

That abortion had a shattering effect on her.  Not immediately, nor even a year later, but shatter her it did.  Some four years later, when our daughter was three, my first wife had a complete nervous breakdown, one so complete that it took eighteen months for her to be off medication and another year to recover.  Through the treatment, it transpired that the cause of the breakdown was a repressed feeling of guilt over the abortion.

Very few people go through such complete breakdowns and emerge the same person on the other side of them and that was true with her.  Where she had been a confident person before, full of laughs and decisive actions, she became hesitant and always second guessing herself and very easily influenced by others.  A decade later, the strains on the marriage caused by the change in her personality caused it to break.

A tragic story?  Perhaps.  And then, perhaps not, for who can say that things would have fared better if her decision had been different and now I'm far enough away from it for it not to hurt.  The point is, it is easy to glibly talk about the people who are involved in abortions, easy to draw the issue into moral abstractions and matters of law or ethics but, in the end, when you discuss abortion you are discussing the actions of real people and we neglect that fact at our peril.

Whatever you decide about the rights and wrongs of abortion, I hope that your decision is tempered by an understanding and an empathy for the people who have faced, are facing and will face the decision to abort or not to abort for real.

Offline Serephino

Re: Abortion
« Reply #128 on: October 08, 2009, 07:55:16 PM »
Personally, I'm against abortion.  Unless you are a complete moron, you should know that you are risking pregnancy every time you have sex.  So basically, if you have sex and get pregnant, you knew the risk, you deal with the consequence.  The use of birth control helps, but it isn't 100% effective.  I know someone who got pregnant 3 times on the pill.  She gave herself an abortion twice by binge drinking.  The third time it didn't work. 

There are exceptions to every rule of course.  If the mother's life would be endangered, or there was something wrong with the baby, then the mother should be able to choose.

I also think the father should get some say.  Sure, a man could walk away, but have you ever heard of a little thing called child support?  There are so many cases where a man doesn't want to be a father, but the woman goes after him for child support and forces him to be a father.  Under the law a man has a legal responsibility to support a child whether he wanted it or not.  But if the woman doesn't want the baby suddenly the man has no rights?  I really don't think that's fair.

If a woman wants the baby she has the right to have it regardless of the father's wishes.  Why shouldn't a man have the same right?  What if the father really wants the kid?  Sure, the woman has to go through the pregnancy, but that's only because a man can't.  I'm sure there are men out there who would go through the pregnancy if they could. Why punish them because they can't?   

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Abortion
« Reply #129 on: October 08, 2009, 08:11:26 PM »
I remember reading something about how a man could theoretically support a child.  Surgery would be needed for both putting the fetus into the abdominal cavity and for delivery, of course...

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Abortion
« Reply #130 on: October 08, 2009, 10:13:22 PM »
Sue the parents for emotional suffering now.

Actually her mom was a Bond fan with a sense of irony.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Abortion
« Reply #131 on: October 08, 2009, 10:17:12 PM »
I suppose it could have been much worse then - Honey Ryder, Tiffany Case, Pussy Galore...

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Abortion
« Reply #132 on: October 08, 2009, 10:20:46 PM »
I suppose it could have been much worse then - Honey Ryder, Tiffany Case, Pussy Galore...

Actually.. IF I remember right.. in the book, that is how Roulette said she got her name.

Offline Kate

Re: Abortion
« Reply #133 on: October 09, 2009, 12:58:59 AM »
(Personally I think the father should only have a say if she wants to keep it but anyway)

Watching Aiden's posts was very interesting.

This to me reflects the advantage of those that treat the matter more maturely and address more aspects of it. Those that do not find themselves pressed in a point of trying to defend a ridiculous stance and their pride "aborts" staying with it for the "whole 9 months" (lol sorry)..

I think most of the world would see his arguments as difficult to hold faith in.

The concept that "Meaning" is subjective is not one that many find easy to grasp.

"Well your observation seems like a personal attack, based on my opinion on the topic. I'm done with this topic. "  - Aiden

Firstly - everything is as personal as one identifys it as, just like the idea of an abortion by an ex or gf of Adiens is personally affronting to HIM, the idea of going through with it may be personally affronting to HER.

This topic is very personal to many, this was made clear in the beginning as a warning that many heated views on the topic will likely appear. This topic is about as close to personal as possible.

... beforehand ...
"Why are we having sex in the first place if we are not willing to deal with the results together?" - Aiden

- The same reason why Aiden speaks a statement like while not willing to be "dance" to the perspective of others that are not HIS that he disagrees with after the fact he did that / said that.

The urge to speak or have sex is its own issue, cultural imposition of "you have to address this also if you choose that or its already done" is the freedom that we are discussing. So his own actions do make a powerful case for those disagreeing with him.

"Why didn't we use protection or use a different form of birth control when we were together?" - Aiden

The circumstances where it was known and a choice (ie not rape and all could afford it) etc aside, somethings do spontaneously happen without logical reason optimized form a sustainable logistic sense, not everything is planned. Falling in love is disadvantageous for a mind in many regards as it forces focus towards something that is separate from previous ambitions. "it highjacks" the mind in many ways. This defines passion to me. Also the birth control method may not have worked.

"If an ex or current girlfriend would have gone behind my back to have an abortion I would cut off everything to do with that person for ever, plain and simple. "Suck it up nine months then walk out that door and never look back"
Would be my reply Zakharra.- Aiden"


For her case I hope so ... hypothetically.
... later when he finds out that she needed to in order to live or both die, and had to immediately before she could explain things to him ...

well... such a situation would be justification beyond what such an approach will be being interested in nearing. This is good though for her, approaches like that do greatly aid refining woman's abilities to know what sort of guys suit being a father, likely this gives good reason for her to associate with others that are more inclined to suit her nature.

In short his "I want to turn my back on this" suits "good", as much as his ex's view of wanting to turn her back on going through a pregnancy is "good".

One thing I must say though is that I do not view Aiden's stances as representing other "pro-life" views, there are pro-life views considerably more interesting to me than Aiden's ...

however even Aiden's views are not "him", they are just his views "then" and they should direct all HIS related behavior "after wards"

Just like a woman who falls pregnant (with the intention to) ... may change her mind.  Just like a man saying "I will love you forever till sickness and death ra ra ra"... may change his mind afterwards...

Freedom of choice = freedom to "live",  to me, but this is my perspective which I do not claim is "right" for all or better for those that disagree with it, as such I will not expect him to change his behavior to suit my values.

To me imposing values on another that is more or less independent with consequences that are enforced by the state is a unnecessary needfulness that is immature and very damaging to our culture in most regards.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 01:13:04 AM by Kate »

Offline Kate

Re: Abortion
« Reply #134 on: October 09, 2009, 01:26:12 AM »
[threadjack]
I realize the above statement has nothing to do with abortion, but let me say this: Over my cold dead corpse will any government entity tell me what I can and cannot do with my net worth, whether it is in the form of cash, real estate, investments, or spanish doubloons buried in a mason jar in my backyard. I willingly and gladly pay my fair share of taxes, and aside from that, it is for me to decide what I do with my personal wealth as long as I am not breaking any laws. If I want to leave it to my kids, put the money in a trust fund, donate every cent to charity, or buy everyone in the United States an ice cream cone, I will goddamn well do as I please, thankyouverymuch. I get twitchy with the mere mention of "redistributing wealth".
[/threadjack]

- I feel it was related due to the concept of "ownership" who owns the "right" etc... in the context of consequences of belief in "rightful ownership" of someone "owning" something that effects the wants others have.

(btw "wealth" => ownership constructs, associated with the state, individual, god, souls ...  or any other conceptual entity. I think entiry constructs like "you" "it", soul etc are mainly created to give infrustructure to the concept of ownership. In this way the idea of "ownership", "owns" perspectives it is accepted by)

Is a construct that I think causes disunity in humanity, (and yes greed personally) and is main driver for passions to rise in the subject of abortion.

If addressing this is deemed of a different scope to most, I am happy to drop the issue and let it become a different thread if others feel they wish to express their views on it.


« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 01:35:03 AM by Kate »

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Abortion
« Reply #135 on: October 09, 2009, 02:54:24 AM »
If addressing this is deemed of a different scope to most, I am happy to drop the issue and let it become a different thread if others feel they wish to express their views on it.

Probably better to take that particular discussion to a new thread, yes.

Offline Kate

Re: Abortion
« Reply #136 on: October 09, 2009, 03:29:22 AM »
Probably better to take that particular discussion to a new thread, yes.
- HH

- "God's" "will" be done :)
( On earth as it is in ... http://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=49532.0 )
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 03:59:05 AM by Kate »

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Abortion
« Reply #137 on: October 09, 2009, 11:33:46 PM »
This raises an interesting point can a person OWN another one ,de facto, slavery?

If not then the unborn child as a person as many believe is the case has no more or fewer rights than the mother. If yes than of course the child is property ,a slave or non-person, and can be aborted.

But unless one can be absolutely sure life doesn't begin at conception we should give the child the benefit of the fact and not allow abortion save if the mothers life is in danger. Even if the child is from an act or incest or rape or likely going to have birth defects the childs right cannot be placed under the mothers.

I tend to support the view of the child having equal rights to the mother barring the mothers life being put at exceptional risk if the child was carried to a term when the child can be removed, and place into care giving the child a chance. Yes that means the child being premature even to a remote chance of survival.

My opinion is its a soul blessed by God and only He should choose to take this life but one must show respect to the life already here if that life is really in danger.

Offline Kate

Re: Abortion
« Reply #138 on: October 10, 2009, 12:11:55 AM »
Ruby, I disagree with some of the takes you have - I would adore to argue some of the points your proposing.

You do seem to come over as one that is of a religious faith - this is good - it isnt bad it just simply is. What makes your opinion relevant from my perspective is not what god believes but what you beleive.

The two of us talking of what is "right", what "rights" an unborn has, right to life etc will likely address many of your core beliefs about life

I am a strong advocate of faith - and yes I do beleive that "faith" can work miracles and humanity has a lot to learn from historical documents deemed religious, I beleive attributed miracles however is due to mis-understood abilities of a person's mind tat are awakened by resolute "confidence/faith" in an outcome - not from any over-arching appeal to something "else". (Miracles have been attributed to several of different faiths, it makes me beleive any paranormal powers individuals have (which I do have "faith" in believing is true) is not proof of their belief systems, however I do beleive that they may be related - usually those that are "great healers" through "paranormal" methods do have a very strong belief in divinity of a sort.

Religion lets sidestep for the moment though (I saw how the "put faith in its place thread went .. lol) I really did mean this concerning the topic of abortian

... would you be interested in discussing your views with "heretics" like me in this forum ?

(I may (and others also ) in many instances dismiss what you deem as true and beleive another version of "truth" is more relevant, if I do I not intend it as directly insulting to you personally, more so towards reasoning of certain stances).


Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #139 on: October 10, 2009, 09:34:08 PM »
A man breaks into a house and strangles a pregnant woman to death. He's caught and later tried for double homicide. If the law is willing to recognize this as a second life and therefore second murder when it happens this why, why is it okay to elect to kill the child? Even things considered property for the sake of sale and transferal such as animals, are not to be killed or tortured needlessly.

I'd argue a Human life is a Human life, and the only time that life should be threatened with death is when it endangers another life. Even in cases of rape, you have to ask the question, is it the child's fault that it was conceived that way? If we kill it, we're treating the baby as a criminal. I'd rather say kill the rapist but for some reason that's not allowed either.

Also, in the case of rape, women's bodies have reactions to help fight off conception during high stress moments. Legislating an entire law on a small percentage of something that might happen is kind of bad idea. If your car goes out of control because of something such as say, a bee stinging you, you are still at fault. There's no law saying that "if a bee stings a person causing them to wreck..." because its not something that happens often.

I think the only case where unborn children should be killed is when the mother's life is in danger.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Abortion
« Reply #140 on: October 10, 2009, 10:38:07 PM »
 So if a woman is raped and gets pregnant, she should have to bear the child? To have a constant reminder of what happened to her growing inside of her womb?

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #141 on: October 10, 2009, 10:44:08 PM »
So if a woman is raped and gets pregnant, she should have to bear the child? To have a constant reminder of what happened to her growing inside of her womb?

On the off chance, pretty much yeah. There are measures they take when you report a rape to make sure you don't actually get pregnant. The first thing that should happen when someone is raped is they should report it and get the rape kit stuff done. If you don't not only are you taking the chance of getting pregnant, you're taking the chance of letting the person who raped you walk away free.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Abortion
« Reply #142 on: October 10, 2009, 10:52:44 PM »
There are many cases where rapes go unreported.  Rapes committed while the woman is under the influence (and therefore doesn't realize it), rapes committed by family members (they happen, they're sick, and the perp is unlikely to help the victim report it), girls who are afraid of being blamed for what happened to them...

As much as I agree that someone who is raped should report it first thing, I'd consider it cruel to force someone to go through nine months of reliving it just because they didn't.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #143 on: October 10, 2009, 11:00:38 PM »
There are many cases where rapes go unreported.  Rapes committed while the woman is under the influence (and therefore doesn't realize it), rapes committed by family members (they happen, they're sick, and the perp is unlikely to help the victim report it), girls who are afraid of being blamed for what happened to them...

As much as I agree that someone who is raped should report it first thing, I'd consider it cruel to force someone to go through nine months of reliving it just because they didn't.

Let's be honest, rape isn't something your likely to forget in 9 months, its not something your likely to forget in 9 years. I know people who are 23 and were raped when they were five and they still have issues over it. But by accepting that rape makes abortion okay you're 1. Punishing an innocent child who had nothing to do with the action committed and 2. giving those who weren't raped and out to get abortions.

And if rape is so unreported, then wouldn't they be just as reluctant to tell the doctor it was rape to abort the baby?

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Abortion
« Reply #144 on: October 10, 2009, 11:08:34 PM »
So you're saying that a woman would cry 'rape' if that was her only option, which is filing a false police report, as well as risk getting her actual sex partner arrested for a felony?  As for your second paragraph, they probably wouldn't tell the doctor it was rape.  They would want the option to get the dual trauma (being raped and having the abortion) over with as quickly and safely and quietly as possible.

Offline Trieste

  • Faerie Queen; Her Imperial Lubemajesty; Willing Victim
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: In the middle of Happily Ever After with a dark Prince Charming.
  • Gender: Female
  • I am many things - dull is not one of them.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Abortion
« Reply #145 on: October 10, 2009, 11:12:48 PM »
On the off chance, pretty much yeah. There are measures they take when you report a rape to make sure you don't actually get pregnant. The first thing that should happen when someone is raped is they should report it and get the rape kit stuff done. If you don't not only are you taking the chance of getting pregnant, you're taking the chance of letting the person who raped you walk away free.

Heh.

You watch too much SVU. The morning-after pill and a high dose of antibiotics doesn't magically make the little microorganisms in semen go away.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #146 on: October 10, 2009, 11:15:01 PM »
So you're saying that a woman would cry 'rape' if that was her only option, which is filing a false police report, as well as risk getting her actual sex partner arrested for a felony?  As for your second paragraph, they probably wouldn't tell the doctor it was rape.  They would want the option to get the dual trauma (being raped and having the abortion) over with as quickly and safely and quietly as possible.

Women cry rape when caught having sex, wasn't it not that long ago that some black kids were in trouble because a woman claimed they had raped her when they hadn't? A woman pulled the same thing on Kobe Bryant. And it happened to a Lacrosse Team. A girl at my high school claimed a student raped her when they were caught having sex...

Let's face it, there are those out there who are willing to not only cry rape for something like abortion, but for reasons of money or sympathy. It's not that rape victims are at fault, but if I was a rape victim, I would be extremely pissed about how some women and men in this country think rape is a joke or a way to escape trouble.

And if they didn't tell the doctor it was rape, then how would they get the abortion? If abortion has to be allowed for rape and the baby harming the mother or killing her, then one of those things would have to be present to preform the abortion. Two of them you can test for.

Heh.

You watch too much SVU. The morning-after pill and a high dose of antibiotics doesn't magically make the little microorganisms in semen go away.

Let's look at it this way, many rapists are unable to ejaculate, when a male ejaculates nervous or under stress, there are less sperm and the sperm are less healthy. When a female is ejaculated in under stress she has a lessened chance of conception. Many rapes don't even involve the male ejaculating. Then couple in the rape kit, couple in the normal chances of pregnancy failure. Your looking at maybe 10% chance. I seriously doubt, without even looking that more than 10% of rapes produce a pregnancy.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 11:18:11 PM by Odin »

Offline Cecily

Re: Abortion
« Reply #147 on: October 10, 2009, 11:16:04 PM »
I don't know why when the subject of rape is brought up it always comes back to blaming the victim.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Abortion
« Reply #148 on: October 10, 2009, 11:19:37 PM »
I don't know why when the subject of rape is brought up it always comes back to blaming the victim.

No one is blaming the victim, read what I said and find where any real victims were blamed. I blamed people who report false rapes which does happen.

I am simply saying that the chance of getting pregnant through rape is pretty slim, and we shouldn't allow abortion across the board based on it.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Abortion
« Reply #149 on: October 10, 2009, 11:24:04 PM »
 Not all women report a rape. It's incredibly degrading and humiliating. It does leave mental scars that can take years to heal, but not everyone knows that have been raped. There are many cases of women being too drunk or drugged to remember. They might not know until days, weeks or months later when they are told or enough clues  come to them.

 To make them have to bear a child that they want nothing to do with, a constant remoinder of what happened to them, growing in their womb will keep that memory very fresh in their mond. It can be seen as the rapist is still raping them every moment because the evidence is something they cannot avoid for a single moment.