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Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 12174 times)

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Offline Trieste

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #100 on: October 08, 2009, 01:26:10 PM »
How about the fact that many insurance companies gladly cover Viagra and Cialis, but won't cover some forms of birth control for women?

Insurance companies suck. Haven't you been paying attention? xD

Offline Torch

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #101 on: October 08, 2009, 01:27:13 PM »
Or I could talk to her like a responsible human being, maybe?

No one said you couldn't. But your statement "she will have the child" suggests a finality that has already been decided. You would have to prepare yourself for the possibility that even though you could talk until you are blue in the face, she, theoretically, could still choose to terminate the pregnancy.

Offline Torch

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #102 on: October 08, 2009, 01:27:38 PM »
Insurance companies suck. Haven't you been paying attention? xD

*snort* I was distracted by the coffee.

Offline Cecilia

Re: Abortion
« Reply #103 on: October 08, 2009, 01:28:33 PM »
If I get a female pregnant, then she will have the child. At that point if she wants nothing to do with the child for whatever reason she can walk out of their life forever.

Father's should have rights also.


Uhm..What are you going to do tie her up in a room and force her to give birth?   AS far as I know that could be considered torture.  Being pregnant, in case you've never noticed, is not exactly a fun thing.  First, you're tired and puking for three months.  That's great for the job process, by the way.  Then, once you're no longer exhausted from the thing growing inside you, you begin to hurt.  Sometimes it hurts a lot--the back, the hips, the breasts.  Everything can ache.  Then, when you get even larger, you can't sleep because nothing feels good.  The baby kicks you in the lungs, the stomach and you have to pee every ten minutes.  This is all before giving birth where the baby practically tears you apart coming out or you get sliced open so the baby can be pulled out.  All of this at a great expense to the mother's emotional well being and physical state.     It can be a life-threatening condition and there's always some possibility that the mother could die from the process. 

That's also assuming you actually know you've fathered a child.  Most women I know who have had abortions do so because they don't want to raise a child with the father. 





Offline jouzinka

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2009, 01:33:19 PM »
Not really, but you're supporting a position that is quite frankly sexist. When the rest of the thread doesn't agree with you, you resort to being passive aggressive. It's not really supporting your point.
All right, so the ideal situation is an omnipresent discussion where everyone has a say, then abortions are banned, while men still keep the possibility to walk away whenever they choose from the responsibility?

I'm sorry, but I prefer sound sleep and thinking of that isn't very much helping it.

No one said you couldn't. But your statement "she will have the child" suggests a finality that has already been decided. You would have to prepare yourself for the possibility that even though you could talk until you are blue in the face, she, theoretically, could still choose to terminate the pregnancy.

Assuming Aiden knows about the pregnancy in the first place.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 01:34:44 PM by jouzinka »

Online Silk

Re: Abortion
« Reply #105 on: October 08, 2009, 01:36:04 PM »
All right, so the ideal situation is an omnipresent discussion where everyone has a say, then abortions are banned, while men still keep the possibility to walk away whenever they choose from the responsibility?

I'm sorry, but I prefer sound sleep and thinking of that isn't very much helping it.
Nobody is saying about abortions being banned, were saying that the father should have a say if the child is to be aborted or not, the male walking away is not going to infringe the mothers right to be a mother but the mother choosing abortion even though the father wants the child IS infringing on his right to be a father, that is the main difference there.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #106 on: October 08, 2009, 01:37:41 PM »
Nobody is saying about abortions being banned, were saying that the father should have a say if the child is to be aborted or not, the male walking away is not going to infringe the mothers right to be a mother but the mother choosing abortion even though the father wants the child IS infringing on his right to be a father, that is the main difference there.
I've said twice already that I didn't dispute that.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Abortion
« Reply #107 on: October 08, 2009, 01:38:20 PM »
Or I could talk to her like a responsible human being, maybe?

 and if she doesn't want the baby?

Offline Torch

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #108 on: October 08, 2009, 01:38:36 PM »
Assuming Aiden knows about the pregnancy in the first place.

Yep, I've known more than one woman who has terminated a pregnancy with her boyfriend being none the wiser. Now, whether he found out later or not I'm not sure of, but at the time, he was completely unaware.

Offline Caeli

Re: Abortion
« Reply #109 on: October 08, 2009, 01:40:37 PM »
Please stop the personal attacks and keep things civil, please.

This is a controversial issue and I understand that people feel strongly about the topic, but I don't want to resort to locking this thread if you are unable to discuss this without resorting to insults and sarcasm.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 01:43:01 PM by Caeli »

Offline Dim Hon

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #110 on: October 08, 2009, 01:52:08 PM »
Can I just ask, why are people making the point that abortion is birth control? It keeps popping up - exactly what else is an abortion? Plastic surgery? Everyone who has an abortion is doing it as a form of birth control. I don't understand what other function it has.

Offline Aiden

Re: Abortion
« Reply #111 on: October 08, 2009, 01:52:21 PM »
and if she doesn't want the baby?

Why are we having sex in the first place if we are not willing to deal with the results together?
Why didn't we use protection or use a different form of birth control when we were together?
These are questions I ask myself NOW, (not in my younger days, again I was lucky)

If an ex or current girlfriend would have gone behind my back to have an abortion I would cut off everything to do with that person for ever, plain and simple.
"Suck it up nine months then walk out that door and never look back"
Would be my reply Zakharra.

Offline Caeli

Re: Abortion
« Reply #112 on: October 08, 2009, 01:55:32 PM »
"Suck it up nine months then walk out that door and never look back"

... And I wasn't going to post, but I find it difficult to believe that you could possibly dismiss pregnancy and having a baby is a matter of "sucking it up" for nine months. As others have stated, it's a deeply emotional experience for the mother, whether she wants the baby or not.

I haven't had yet a real deep want for children of my own, and I've never been pregnant (and I don't wish to be for good while), but I really don't think pregnancy is as simple as walking around with a big stomach for nine months.

Offline jouzinka

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #113 on: October 08, 2009, 01:56:18 PM »
Can I just ask, why are people making the point that abortion is birth control? It keeps popping up - exactly what else is an abortion? Plastic surgery? Everyone who has an abortion is doing it as a form of birth control. I don't understand what other function it has.
I suppose it has to do with the term that birth control is meant to be contraception method, preventing the conception completely, which abortion isn't, since the conception already occurred.

Offline Kotah

Re: Abortion
« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2009, 01:58:15 PM »
So, I thought I would discuss the possible repercussions of creating and amending new abortion laws. Since we haven't really addressed the repercussions.

There is a law passed that a woman can only receive an abortion do to incest/rape:
We have a sudden influx of women claiming they have been raped, and receiving abortions.

How do we control this problem? According to my sexual harassment training (for work), which could be fallible but from what I remember so don't come down on me, 1 out of every 10 women has been sexually assaulted. Only a fraction of these are ever reported. How do we know who was really raped? Only the one's that file a report? Not every woman is willing to file a report when they are raped. Do we put the woman on trial? That would seem rather harsh on the women that really were sexually assaulted. Innocent till proven guilty, but you have to prove that you were raped?

There is a law passed that women can't have more then one abortion:
Women go from place to place to get abortions.
Possible influx in back ally abortions.

I don't know how you would honestly control this problem. If a woman feels she had no other way out, she is going to do what she feels she needs to do. If you limit the availability of care, you force people to find other methods.

What if a woman has an abortion and 9 months later she get's raped? It's easier to get pregnant after you have been pregnant before. Even if you did have an abortion.

What if the woman has a medical condition? I know a woman who's uterus walls are two thin for her to carry a child. She would have to abort any pregnancy she has, or face death. I know a woman who had a reoccurring problem in pregnancy where the  placenta is formed backwards. Where it's supposed to be against the front of her belly, she had a problem twice where it forms along her spine.

How are you going to control these problems? Make it ok for some, and not for others? Once again you are going to see a lot of women calling rape to get what they want.

ECT.

Women, when desperate, will find other methods around it. If you make it harder for women to receive abortions the rich will leave the country to have it done, and the poor will take whatever means necessary. Including suicide.

The point of the matter is, who are we to force out morality on anyone else? What gives us the right to decide if abortion is or isn't right for Peggy Sue. Why should you even care? You have never met Peggy Sue. You will never meet the child she may or may not have. Peggy Sue is the one that will have to deal with her choices. Not you. Peggy Sue should have the choice. Peggy Sue can have sex with whoever she wants.

As for the birth control question. I have my own little birth control opps due February 1st. I was on the pill.

Offline Torch

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2009, 02:05:28 PM »
but I really don't think pregnancy is as simple as walking around with a big stomach for nine months.

I've done it twice, and I can tell you without a doubt that it isn't. Huh, I wish it was.  :P 

I, for one, did very little 'glowing' whilst being pregnant, and instead did a whole lot of this:  >:( >:( >:(

Offline Valerian

Re: Abortion
« Reply #116 on: October 08, 2009, 02:06:58 PM »
Okay, everyone:

Please keep in mind the original purpose of the thread, way back when -- to answer specific questions asked by the original poster.

If we could get back to that, that would be great.  A step back for everyone might be a good thing at this point.

Offline Lilias

Re: Abortion
« Reply #117 on: October 08, 2009, 02:21:09 PM »
"Suck it up nine months then walk out that door and never look back"
Would be my reply Zakharra.

That deserves a reply of 'You can have it if you can graft it onto yourself and let it grow inside you.' I've done the whole pregnancy and birth thing, and it's traumatic, even as much as I wanted it. Inflicting pain equal to childbirth on a man would qualify as torture by any standards.

Back on track: There are cultures, like the Chinese and Indian, that unfortunately promote, unwillingly but surely, selective late-term abortion, in cases when the sonogram reveals the baby to be a girl. The practice was made illegal in India a couple of years ago; I'm not aware of official data for China, but it takes more than a law to eradicate a practice.

I feel that a crucial element in lowering the number of abortions without banning them is, apart from education (general as well as sex ed), an overhaul of the adoption laws, including the rediscovery of fosterage. I can't quite blame people who believe that an unwanted child is better off dying unborn than being raised by the state. The hoops one has to jump through in order to adopt are outrageous, and I know a lot of families who don't care about legalities and names either, they just want little people to care for. Like old-time communities, where everyone looked out for everyone else's children, not just their own. Everyone would be much better off in such arrangements; the SOS Villages are such an effort.

How could we know if someone has been using serial abortion as birth control? Well, doesn't one need proof of identity when they go to the hospital to give birth? Make it mandatory for abortions as well, and put that into a national database.

For the record, I consider that life starts when the zygote is implanted in the womb and starts growing in viable circumstances. Miscarriages are not abortions (although they used to be treated as such; the term even was 'spontaneous abortion'), and anyone faulting a woman who terminates an ectopic pregnancy (where the zygote implants inside the Fallopian tube, being both non-viable and potentially lethal to the mother) deserves to be castrated.

Offline Aiden

Re: Abortion
« Reply #118 on: October 08, 2009, 02:22:47 PM »
... And I wasn't going to post, but I find it difficult to believe that you could possibly dismiss pregnancy and having a baby is a matter of "sucking it up" for nine months. As others have stated, it's a deeply emotional experience for the mother, whether she wants the baby or not.

I haven't had yet a real deep want for children of my own, and I've never been pregnant (and I don't wish to be for good while), but I really don't think pregnancy is as simple as walking around with a big stomach for nine months.

I am not dismissing pregnancy like I would a sport's injury.
I understand (not firsthand) that pregnancy takes its toll on the mother emotionally and physically.
But in MY (Warning Aiden does not speak for all men) case, I would support the mother of my child in whatever way I could. If she wants nothing to do with the child, she will have no future with me and after that is done, she can grant me sole custody and never talk to me and her child again.

(pregnancy as a result from  one night stands (<---in this case...I mean really now...), incest and rapes is in a completely different category for me.)

Offline Caeli

Re: Abortion
« Reply #119 on: October 08, 2009, 02:28:19 PM »
What about people who use abortion as birth control?

I'm taking this to mean women who use abortion as a chronic method of terminating unwanted pregnancies. I don't know if there are any statistics out there on this kind of issue, but I do not believe laws should be... selective.

What I mean by that is, you can't say that abortion is okay, and then give a huge list of stipulations about when and how it is okay. All laws are, to some effect, selective (for example, the difference between homicide and murder is a matter of intent, as a bad example), but making abortion laws situational would make it hugely difficult on the part of hospitals and doctors to decide when each situation falls under "okay" and "not okay".

But I digress. For a simple answer - medically, I can't say that I am comfortable with the idea, but it is not my body. The women who do that - I would hope that they did not come to each decision to abort the fetus lightly.

If you are okay with terminating the life because it's "on someone else's property" and "it isn't human yet"; how do you reconcile this with your view on animal rights? (i.e. fetus = not human = animal = animal murder)

The issues are unrelated - not human does not necessarily mean animal.

I am also not "okay" with terminating life because "it isn't human yet" - I'm not okay with terminating life, period, no matter how it happens. But nothing is so black and white, and abortion is one of those issues. I believe that there are situations when abortion might be the best choice for the mother... and I don't believe that it is my place to judge whether it is "right" or "wrong" or "okay" for her.

Do you believe in a soul?  If so, how can you know the unborn child doesn't have a soul?

Yes, I believe in the existence of souls. I can't know that an unborn child doesn't have a soul - only the gods can answer such a question.

If the unborn child does have a soul - do I believe that there are situations when being born might be a worse choice than terminating a pregnancy? Yes, I do. Maybe it's not unfair, to not give the baby a chance to be born - but just as things are most often NOT black and white, so there is nothing that is guaranteed.

I can only say this from personal opinion, but I would certainly weigh my ability to raise a child in a healthy and safe environment as one of the factors if I was considering abortion. Things like having a steady job, someone to take care of the baby with me, good prospects for the future, living in a safe neighborhood and a in a place with access to good schools... a baby is long-term, and I think the future needs to be taken into account. It's not just a matter of "you're killing something with a soul".

Why should the woman get the decision solely on whether or not to abort the child, when the man is equally responsible if she chooses to keep it?

Because only the woman goes through the pregnancy.

That's not to say that men do not have a say or an opportunity to voice their opinion - but ultimately, it is the mother who will be going through pregnancy and giving birth, along with the requisite potential complications and side effects.

But in MY (Warning Aiden does not speak for all men) case, I would support the mother of my child in whatever way I could. If she wants nothing to do with the child, she will have no future with me and after that is done, she can grant me sole custody and never talk to me and her child again.

Support or not, it's still the mother who has to go through the pregnancy. Whether or not I believe in abortion or agree about whatever ethics or morality discussions on the topic, I can say definitively that I support the woman's right to choose abortion.

No, it's not a sports injury. But it's also not just nine months of being pregnant.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Abortion
« Reply #120 on: October 08, 2009, 02:36:28 PM »
I am not dismissing pregnancy like I would a sport's injury.
I understand (not firsthand) that pregnancy takes its toll on the mother emotionally and physically.
But in MY (Warning Aiden does not speak for all men) case, I would support the mother of my child in whatever way I could. If she wants nothing to do with the child, she will have no future with me and after that is done, she can grant me sole custody and never talk to me and her child again.

(pregnancy as a result from  one night stands (<---in this case...I mean really now...), incest and rapes is in a completely different category for me.)

 I'm sorry, but with that attitude, I cannot see how a woman could stand to be with you. Far too controlling. This isn't a personal attack, just an observation.

 The fact you have sex, doesn't mean a child should result. Both of you might have been using a contraceptive and they failed. No contraceptive is 100% safe. Sex is fun. A great recreational activity. The fact she might not want a baby and you do shouldn't mean she should have to bear the child.

 Back on topic, abortion should stay legal. The only one that should be questionable is late term where the baby can survive out of the womb. At that point, it does slid into the range of manslaughter/murder since the child is viable by then.
 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 02:38:36 PM by Zakharra »

Offline Greenthorn

Re: Abortion
« Reply #121 on: October 08, 2009, 02:39:39 PM »
(Urology is the study of the urinary system including, but not limited to, incontinence in women and men, erectile dysfunction, sexually transmitted diseases, kidney failure, and so on.  Since I have worked for a urologist, I thought I'd throw this in here.)

Offline Aiden

Re: Abortion
« Reply #122 on: October 08, 2009, 02:47:43 PM »
Well your observation seems like a personal attack, based on my opinion on the topic.

I'm done with this topic.

Offline Valerian

Re: Abortion
« Reply #123 on: October 08, 2009, 02:54:21 PM »
There's a few apparent problems I can see with both sides of the abortion issue; so I'd like to see what people have to say to my challenges.  Lets start this off right, with a light-hearted quote! (which in no way reflects my views on the matter)

I, ah... this abortion issue in the States is dividing the country right in half. You know, and even amongst my friends - we're all highly intelligent - they're totally divided on the issue of abortion. Totally divided. Some of my friends think these pro-life people are just annoying idiots. Other of my friends think these pro-life people are evil fucks. How are we gonna have a consensus? I'm torn. I try and take the broad view and think of them as evil, annoying fucks.
- Bill Hicks

To Those in Favor of Allowing Abortion:
- What about people who use abortion as birth control?
- If you are okay with terminating the life because it's "on someone else's property" and "it isn't human yet"; how do you reconcile this with your view on animal rights? (i.e. fetus = not human = animal = animal murder)
- Do you believe in a soul?  If so, how can you know the unborn child doesn't have a soul?
- Why should the woman get the decision solely on whether or not to abort the child, when the man is equally responsible if she chooses to keep it?
- Typical trite "woman's body" arguments aside (which are more of a slogan than an actual justification); do you believe abortion is justified based on the fetus not being self-aware (or conscious, sentient, etc.) yet?  And if so, what about people who suffer from certain mental illness or reach a certain degree of senility?  Is it possible to support Abortion and not Euthanasia?

To Those in Favor of Banning Abortion:
- What about rape and incest?  Would you truly require a woman to carry a child to term if she didn't consent to its conception?
- If there is a choice between the child's life and the mother's, do you still agree with the ban?  (essentially always choosing the child)
- It is true that even if the fetus is not a person, it would be in time.  For some, this alone makes abortion wrong.  In such an argument, is murder equated with preventing the child's birth?  And if so, how is abortion worse than not choosing not to mate when you would? (thereby having the same ultimate effect)
- What about the overall economic and societal effect such a policy will have?  More unwanted children forced upon reluctant, typically poor parents will undoubtedly result in population growth, increase in crime, and a generally less happy populace.
- If you think the act is categorically wrong and comparable to murder, should the United States make a crusade of overthrowing all of the governments around the world that allow it?  Such a viewpoint equates Abortion to mass Infanticide, and in some places like Cuba Abortion is ridiculously common and even makes some 'civilized' nations guilty of genocide (considering minorities get abortions far more often).

Just a helpful reminder, as I'd rather not have to lock the thread.  Tempers are running high again, so let's all try to stay a little calmer when posting.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Abortion
« Reply #124 on: October 08, 2009, 03:43:35 PM »
I'm sorry, but with that attitude, I cannot see how a woman could stand to be with you. Far too controlling. This isn't a personal attack, just an observation.

 The fact you have sex, doesn't mean a child should result. Both of you might have been using a contraceptive and they failed. No contraceptive is 100% safe. Sex is fun. A great recreational activity. The fact she might not want a baby and you do shouldn't mean she should have to bear the child.

 Back on topic, abortion should stay legal. The only one that should be questionable is late term where the baby can survive out of the womb. At that point, it does slid into the range of manslaughter/murder since the child is viable by then.

Case in point: A girl I knew in College named Roulette (for obvious reasons) and one of the preacher's kids I knew was his 'trial from god' as another failure of contraception.

The only 100% sure method of contracpetion is to NOT have sex.