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Author Topic: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments  (Read 891 times)

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Offline PhoenixTopic starter

Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« on: October 03, 2009, 08:07:27 PM »
Jesus broke several of them:

Keep the sabbath day holy and do not do any work.

8"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
10but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
11for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. (Ex. 20:8-11)

1. No only were he and his disciples stealing on the Sabbath, but when the Pharisees saw them plucking and rubbing the grains to make them edible, they rightly saw it as work. Jesus justified himself by calling himself lord of the Sabbath.

1On a sabbath, while he was going through the grainfields, his disciples plucked and ate some heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands.
2But some of the Pharisees said, "Why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath?"
3And Jesus answered, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
4how he entered the house of God, and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those with him?"
5And he said to them, "The Son of man is lord of the sabbath." (Luke 6:1-5)

2. The ruler of the synagogue took issue with Jesus healing on the Sabbath. It was not an emergency matter. Jesus got indignant and called them hypocrites. In verse 15, his reference to trivial work was meant to justify his healing activities as something comparable.

10Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
11And there was a woman who had had a spirit of infirmity for eighteen years; she was bent over and could not fully straighten herself.
12And when Jesus saw her, he called her and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
13And he laid his hands upon her, and immediately she was made straight, and she praised God.
14But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the sabbath, said to the people, "There are six days on which work ought to be done; come on those days and be healed, and not on the sabbath day."
15Then the Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the sabbath untie his ox or his ass from the manger, and lead it away to water it?
16And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?"
17As he said this, all his adversaries were put to shame; and all the people rejoiced at all the glorious things that were done by him. (Luke 12:10-17)

3. Jesus was consistent in ignoring the law against healing on the Sabbath. On another occasion he snubbed the hospitality of his host. His reasoning about an ox that fell in a well did not apply. His healing was not an emergency.

1One sabbath when he went to dine at the house of a ruler who belonged to the Pharisees, they were watching him.
2And behold, there was a man before him who had dropsy.
3And Jesus spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath, or not?"
4But they were silent. Then he took him and healed him, and let him go.
5And he said to them, "Which of you, having a son or an ox that has fallen into a well, will not immediately pull him out on a sabbath day?"
6And they could not reply to this. (Luke 14:1-6)

Honor your father and mother.

12"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you.(Ex. 20:12)

1. Jesus' father Joseph is mentioned only a few times in the NT and almost exclusively in the birth and childhood stories. It appears that God the Father replaced Joseph when Jesus was baptized. To Jesus, he was the son of no one else except God. He expected the same of his followers.

2. He denied a man time to bury his father.

21Another of the disciples said to him, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father."
22But Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead." (Matt. 8:21-22)

3. He came to break families apart. Whoever loves his parents more than him is not worthy of him.

35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36and a man's foes will be those of his own household.
37He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 12:51-53)

4. He disowned his family

31And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
32And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you."
33And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
34And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
35Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Mark 3:31-35, Matt. 12:46-49, Luke 8:19-21)

5. If they don't hate their family, they are not worthy of being his disciple.

26"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

6. He spoke harshly to his mother.

3When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."
4And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come." (John 2:3-4)

Do not kill.

13"You shall not kill.(Ex. 20:13)

1. He didn't come to bring peace, he brought a sword.

34"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:34)

2. He advocated killing children for speaking evil of their parents. Compare the irony with the way Jesus treated his family in commandment five.

3He answered them, "And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
4For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.'
5But you say, 'If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' (Matt. 15:3-5)

3. Jesus killed a herd of 2,000 swine when he cured a demon possessed man by chasing the demons into the herd. The swine rushed into the sea and drowned themselves. He virtually destroyed the farmer's livelihood. Those who saw it, begged for Jesus to leave the neighborhood.

11Now a great herd of swine was feeding there on the hillside;
12and they begged him, "Send us to the swine, let us enter them."
13So he gave them leave. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered the swine; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea.
14The herdsmen fled, and told it in the city and in the country. And people came to see what it was that had happened.
15And they came to Jesus, and saw the demoniac sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, the man who had had the legion; and they were afraid.
16And those who had seen it told what had happened to the demoniac and to the swine.
17And they began to beg Jesus to depart from their neighborhood. (Mark 5:11-17)

4. Those who did want him to reign over them deserve to be slain in his presence.

27But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.'" (Luke 19:27)

5. If you don't have a sword, sell something and buy one.

36He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one. (Luke 22:36)

Do not commit adultery.

14"You shall not commit adultery.(Ex. 20:14)

1. His refusal to condemn an adulteress seems charitable. But in the context, when Jews were about to stone a woman for adultery in accordance with Mosaic Law (Lev 20:10), instead of condemning the law for being overly cruel, Jesus defended her by challenging the hypocrisy of her accusers. "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." He did not ask her to repent and ask forgiveness. His point was to condemn all for being sinners.

4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery.
5Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?"
6This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground.
7And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."
8And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground.
9But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.
10Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again." (John 8:4-11)

2. Jesus' celibacy is questionable. He and his disciples had a bunch of groupie women who followed them around. Readers can judge for themselves if the phrase, "provided for them out of their means," implies sex. At least one, Joanna, was married.

1Soon afterward he went on through cities and villages, preaching and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him,
2and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out,
3and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means.(Luke 8:1-3)

3. Mary Magdalene's love for Jesus is well attested. She is the only person who appears in all four Gospels who went first to visit Jesus' tomb (Matt. 28:1, Mark 16:1, Luke 24:10, John 20:1). Her attempt to hold Jesus, suggests a lover's embrace.

16Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned and said to him in Hebrew, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
18Mary Magdalene went and said to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"; and she told them that he had said these things to her. (John 20:16-18)

Do not steal.

15"You shall not steal.(Ex. 20:15)

1. Jesus and his disciples helped themselves to a farmer's grains. They did not ask, they just went in and helped themselves

1"At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat." (Matt. 12:1)

2. He sent two disciples to steal a colt. When the owners caught them, they said Jesus has need of it. Presuming the owners feared his wrath, they did not object. Either that or they were outnumbered.

30saying, "Go into the village opposite, where on entering you will find a colt tied, on which no one has ever yet sat; untie it and bring it here.
31If any one asks you, 'Why are you untying it?' you shall say this, 'The Lord has need of it.'"
32So those who were sent went away and found it as he had told them.
33And as they were untying the colt, its owners said to them, "Why are you untying the colt?"
34And they said, "The Lord has need of it."
35And they brought it to Jesus, and throwing their garments on the colt they set Jesus upon it. (Luke 19:30-35)

3. Jesus advocated stealing with parable of an employee who, on his own, sold his master's goods at discount prices. If he got fired, his new friends would help him. To make his parable sound like he was not advocating stealing, he has the master commending the employee for shrewdness.

1He also said to the disciples, "There was a rich man who had a steward, and charges were brought to him that this man was wasting his goods.
2And he called him and said to him, 'What is this that I hear about you? Turn in the account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward.'
3And the steward said to himself, 'What shall I do, since my master is taking the stewardship away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, and I am ashamed to beg.
4I have decided what to do, so that people may receive me into their houses when I am put out of the stewardship.'
5So, summoning his master's debtors one by one, he said to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?'
6He said, 'A hundred measures of oil.' And he said to him, 'Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.'
7Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' He said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.'
8The master commended the dishonest steward for his shrewdness; for the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light.
9And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal habitations. (Luke 16.1-9)

Do not bear false witness against your neighbor.

16"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.(Ex. 20:16)

1. He lied when he told his disciples he would not go to the feast. He waited until they were gone, then he went in private.

8Go to the feast yourselves; I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come."
9So saying, he remained in Galilee.
10But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. (John 7:8-10)

2. Jesus biggest lies of all were to his disciples. To get them to follow him, he warned they will have to deny themselves and endure suffering on account of him, and maybe even forfeit their life to be saved.

34And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
35For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.
36For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world and forfeit his life?
37For what can a man give in return for his life? (Mark 8:34-36)

He promised to make their burden easy for them.

28Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matt. 11:28-30)

He promised that if can endure to the end, they will be saved.

22and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. (Matt. 10:22)

He even said he has the power on earth to forgive sins. But he didn't purge their sins while he was on earth.

6But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 9:6)

He cursed Peter him by calling him Satan and not on the side of God-not a good sign.

32And he said this plainly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
33But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are not on the side of God, but of men." (Mark 8:32-33)

He told them he will return soon with his angels to bring them to heaven.

30then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory;
31and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt. 24:30-34)

But after he died, he didn't return on the clouds of heaven to rescue his disciples. He ascended without bringing them with him, or coming back for them. Though he blessed them, that doesn't carry any more weight than a pat on the back. In their happiness, they didn't realize they were taken.

50Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them.
51While he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven.
52And they returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
53and were continually in the temple blessing God. (Luke 24:50-52)

Because the end didn't come, Jesus could not have fulfilled his promises. He used his disciples to his advantage.

Do not covet your neighbor's house, his wife, servents or anything else that is your neighbor's.

17"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's (Ex. 20:17)

To covet means to want what belongs to somebody else. To perform a service for charity is one thing; charitable gifts are a voluntary offering. But Jesus transgressed the boundaries of asking for donations. Because he felt he deserved compensation for his services, he threatened if they were inadequate.

This is reminiscence of the squeegee people for which New York City was once famous for. They would come up to your car and wash your windshield. If you didn't 'tip' them, they got angry

1. Jesus felt that he was entitled to be fed and clothed by whomever he approached. If they did not offer, he threatened eternal punishment.

40And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
41Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
45Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:40-46)

2. He taught his disciples that townspeople had an obligation to give them food and drink for their labors. If they did not, he promised to make their lives more miserable than what the people of Sodom suffered. He even recognized that many would not be receptive.

3Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.
4Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and salute no one on the road.
5Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house!'
6And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you.
7And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house.
8Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you;
9heal the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
10But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,
11'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.'
12I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town. (Luke 10:2-8)

3. He thought nothing of waking his friends up in the middle of night to ask them for food. He felt that by being annoying, they were more likely to give him what he wanted.

5And he said to them, "Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves;
6for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him';
7and he will answer from within, 'Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything'?
8I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him whatever he needs.
9And I tell you, Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. (Luke 11:5-10)

Thanks in part to The Unspoken Bible website
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 08:14:21 PM by Phoenix »

Offline Sabby

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2009, 01:22:48 AM »
I don't follow the Bible... so I'm curious as to how accurate this is o.o it really paints the Christians poster child an asshole and a hipocrit.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2009, 01:24:41 AM »
Depends on how you want to read into the quotes.  Like any work of literature, there are half a dozen ways to read them.

Offline Jude

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2009, 06:09:02 AM »
There's a lot of ways to read them, but considering there's this many of them and they all have a little bit of something to them, I don't see how it's possible to gloss over it all and continue on pretending that the bible is the divine inspired word of god.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2009, 06:59:40 AM »
Not entirely certain there is much to them really.  Reading through them I find it similar to some groups that read a quote, take what they want from that and then toss out the rest.  Many times a book can be picked apart for quotes and meaning inferred that the author did not intend.  Attend any feminist literature course and you'll be stunned at how much classical literature hates women.  Also considering the amount of translation, transcribing, time, editing, etc that the Bible has gone through, it’s hard to believe that what we read is the word of God (if it ever was at all.)

Many Christian groups do not use the Bible as the absolute word of God.  Many prescribe to the belief that it was inspired by God or by divine events.  From these revelations or events a mortal hand wrote them down with an attempt to preserve the wisdom.  Obviously the writing is subject to the needs of the author and also to the wear of time.  This is thought to plague both the Old and New Testament. 

While there are groups that still maintain that the Bible is the exact word of God and that it is strictly to be followed, there are also people that believe cruise control means the car drives itself. 

Offline PhoenixTopic starter

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2009, 07:40:11 AM »
There really isn't that many ways to read most of them. Some of them can be argued by a hardcore apologist, but with further research into the claims used for the apologies, they fall right back down again.

But what this really speaks to is the concept of Jesus being sinless. The most common apologist statement is that Jesus did away with the rest of the OT laws (all of them) except for the 1st commandment (and by extension, the second). These are the only two that Jesus didn't break (controversies/apologists aside for the moment).

The problem here is that, until Jesus died, breaking any commandment was still a sin. This makes Jesus NOT sinless, and NOT blameless.

The whole point of his death was that he was a "pure" and "perfect" and "sinless/blameless" sacrifice. If he went around sinning, then he was NOT pure, perfect, or sinless.

The situation is even worse for Catholics, though. Jesus committed Six of the Catholics' 7 Deadly Sins.

I forgot, it could be argued that Jesus didn't do envy. I suppose it's hard to do envy when you're a megalomaniac.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 07:46:41 AM by Phoenix »

Offline PhoenixTopic starter

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2009, 07:52:01 AM »
He had such a high opinion of himself that he got frustrated or angry at those who didn't believe him. When he insulted them or threatened to send them to hell, he only made his audience angry at him. Who could blame his skeptics? He wasn't the only miracle man in those days, claiming to be sent by God.

21"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' (Matt. 7:21-23)

Pride

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Out of pride comes arrogance, contempt and vanity.

To call others dogs and swine, suggests arrogance, or more accurately, contempt.

6"Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you. (Matt. 7:6)

Whoever does not love him more than their parents is not worthy of him.

37He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it. (Matt. 10:37-39)

He was annoyed by the presence of a father of a boy who suffered from seizures.

19"O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me." (Mark 9:19)

The luxury of being rubbed with expensive ointment was more important than selling the ointment and giving the money to the poor.

3And while he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at table, a woman came with an alabaster flask of ointment of pure nard, very costly, and she broke the flask and poured it over his head.
4But there were some who said to themselves indignantly, "Why was the ointment thus wasted?
5For this ointment might have been sold for more than three hundred denarii, and given to the poor." And they reproached her.
6But Jesus said, "Let her alone; why do you trouble her? She has done a beautiful thing to me.
7For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you will, you can do good to them; but you will not always have me.
8She has done what she could; she has anointed my body beforehand for burying.
9And truly, I say to you, wherever the gospel is preached in the whole world, what she has done will be told in memory of her." (Mark 14:3-7)

The attention he got from a woman was more important than her duties.

38Now as they went on their way, he entered a village; and a woman named Martha received him into her house.
39And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet and listened to his teaching.
40But Martha was distracted with much serving; and she went to him and said, "Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me."
41But the Lord answered her, "Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things;
42one thing is needful. Mary has chosen the good portion, which shall not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:38-42)

He was frustrated because the Pharisees would not believe he came from God.

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
43Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. (John 8:42-43)
Envy

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation. There are no recorded incidences where Jesus was envious. After all, what could a man with a god size ego have to be envious about?

Anger

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury.

Jesus was angry many times. The following examples are self evident.

20Then he began to upbraid the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. (Matt: 11:20)

21He got angry at several towns for not repenting. He tells them, "But I tell you that it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you." (Matt. 11:21-24)

33"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?" (Matt. 23:33)

17You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? (Matt. 23:17)

5"And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man,"Stretch out your hand." (Mark 3:5)

40You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? (Luke 11:40)

Sloth

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.

These were the days before running water and the germ theory, so it would be unfair to compare Jesus' hygiene habits by today's standards. But we have to wonder how badly he smelled between baths, or if he ever cleaned himself at all. Jesus justified not washing because theologically, he felt he was always clean.

He justifies not washing by claiming that being unwashed does not defile him,

1Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
2"Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat." Jesus answered.
19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.
20These are what defile a man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man." (Matt. 15:1-20)

The Pharisees asked him why he did not wash his hands before eating according to tradition.

2they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands defiled, that is, unwashed.
3(For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they wash their hands, observing the tradition of the elders;
4and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they purify themselves; and there are many other traditions which they observe, the washing of cups and pots and vessels of bronze.)
5And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with hands defiled?" (Mark 7:2-5)

His answer was that all food is clean.

18And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him,
19since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (Mark 7:18-19)

For him, everything is clean, so there is no need to wash.

39And the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of extortion and wickedness.
40You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also?
41But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you. (Luke 11:37)

The lazy man's creed: Don't worry about your basic needs for food and clothing; God will provide.

25"Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? (Matt. 6:25)

22And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on.
23For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. (Luke 12.22-23)

Greed

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness. Jesus distaste for work and wealth was highly impractical. Because he lived on charity, there were times when charity couldn't satisfy his needs, so he stole.

On the Sabbath, he and his disciples helped themselves to a farmer's grains. When asked why he violates Jewish law by eating on the Sabbath, he justified stealing by calling himself lord of the Sabbath.

1On a sabbath, while he was going through the grainfields, his disciples plucked and ate some heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands.
2But some of the Pharisees said, "Why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath?"
3And Jesus answered, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
4how he entered the house of God, and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those with him?"
5And he said to them, "The Son of man is lord of the sabbath." (Matt. 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-8)

He sent two disciples to steal an ass and a colt.

1And when they drew near to Jerusalem and came to Bethphage, to the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples,
2saying to them, "Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an ass tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.
3If any one says anything to you, you shall say, 'The Lord has need of them,' and he will send them immediately." (Matt. 21:1-3)

Gluttony

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

He gets uppity about complaints about him and his followers always eating and drinking.

33And they said to him, "The disciples of John fast often and offer prayers, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours eat and drink."
34And Jesus said to them, "Can you make wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them?
35The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in those days." (Matt: 9:14-15; Mark 2:18-19; Luke 5:33-34)

He was known as a glutton and a drunkard.

19the Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."'(Matt: 11:18-19; Luke 7:34)

Jesus got cranky when he was hungry. Once he cursed a fig tree for not having any fruit. The tree died.

18In the morning, as he was returning to the city, he was hungry.
19And seeing a fig tree by the wayside he went to it, and found nothing on it but leaves only. And he said to it, "May no fruit ever come from you again!" And the fig tree withered at once. (Matt: 21:18-19; Mark 11:12-14, 20)

Death must consume a lot of energy. When he returned, the first thing he asked for was food. Or perhaps he didn't really die?

36As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them.
37But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit.
38And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts?
39See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
41And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?"
42They gave him a piece of broiled fish,
43and he took it and ate before them. (Luke 24.36-43)

Lust

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Jesus set an awfully high standard for what defines adultery when he defined it as looking at a woman with lust. Male hormones are very powerful.

27"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
28But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:27-28)

Jesus celibacy is questionable; readers will have to decide for themselves. Groupie women followed him and his disciples through the cities and villages to "provide for them out of their means;" at least one was married.

1Soon afterward he went on through cities and villages, preaching and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him,
2and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out,
3and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means. (Luke 8:1-3)

Near the end, there is a suggestion that he lost interest in the affections of Mary Magdalene when he told her not to hold him anymore. The Bible is very prudish about using stronger words for sexual contact. Like a mourning lover, Mary Magdalene is the only consistent name in all four Gospels who went first to visit Jesus' tomb (Matt. 28:1, Mark 16:1, Luke 24:10, John 20:1).

16>Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned and said to him in Hebrew, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."(John 20:16-17)

We can't say for sure if Jesus committed the sin of lust, but there are grounds for suspicion.

See citation post 1

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2009, 09:03:03 AM »
There are alot of ways to read the statements, especially if someone places them in the context of the entire Bible.  For someone to point at something and say my way is the ONLY way this could be interpreted is quite an arrogant and foolish statement.

Offline PhoenixTopic starter

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2009, 09:10:20 AM »
Yes, I know, there are many ways to attempt to weasel out of what the Bible actually says.

If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and craps like a duck; it's probably a duck.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2009, 09:17:48 AM »
I'm not Catholic.  I was raised Catholic, but had my own epiphany when I was in college, and now follow a completely different spiritual path.

Still, I made a point of actually reading the entire Bible a couple of times - even just as an example of literature.  Got bogged down a little in Numbers and Psalms, but thoroughly enjoyed the Song of Solomon and the headtrip of Revelations.  I even managed to confuse the heck out of a Sunday School teacher by citing bits of Rev as my 'favorite Bible passage' - she couldn't find it.

But I digress.

Every one of those examples is taken out of context.  The majority show Jesus acting with compassion despite the 'Laws of Man' or Mosaic laws.  His frustration was inevitably directed towards those who used the Laws of Man as something to follow by rote as opposed to following them because of actual piety. 

The importance of the message that he brought (and which apologists and evangelicals alike seem to have missed) is 'I bring unto you a new commandment:  Love one another as you have loved me, and love your neighbor as yourself' (John 13:34-35 since we're citing chapter and verse), or "And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, one girl sitting on her own in a small cafe in Rickmansworth suddenly realized what it was that had been going wrong all this time, and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place." (Adams, I 5:1)

Most of the ten commandments (aside from the first three about how to worship) can be summed up by 'being nice to people for a change'.

4 Honor your father and your mother:  Be nice to your elders

5 You shall not murder:  Killing people is not nice to them.

6 You shall not commit adultery:  Neither is sleeping with their spouses behind their back.

7 You shall not steal:  Or taking their stuff.

8 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor:  Lying about people is really not very nice.

9 and 10 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor: Wanting anything of theirs to the point where only the other commandments keeps you from taking those things - well, that's not nice either.

Offline PhoenixTopic starter

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2009, 09:25:58 AM »
Yes, I know that Jesus excused many of his bouts of anger. And whether they are balanced or not, doesn't matter.

The question isn't whether he was able to give justifications for his actions. The question is, WAS HE WITHOUT SIN?

And the answer is, of course, he was NOT without sin.

If it's a sin to be angry, it's a sin to be angry even if you have a good excuse for it. If it's a sin to covet what others have, then it's a sin, even if you can justify it with, 'well, I'm JESUS, man!'

To say that, "well, but he had good reasons, and he was angry out of compassion" doesn't make him magically not angry. Nor does it make it okay to steal just because "well, I'm JESUS, man!"

To be without sin doesn't mean to sin with good reason. To sin with good reason sort of makes a mockery of the whole concept of sin.

Jesus sinned. He was NOT a perfect, sinless sacrifice. Even though he ate because he was hungry, and stole on the Sabbath because he was hungry, and justified it by saying, "You do the same thing," doesn't make what he did okay.

If your kid says, "I ate poison because everyone else was doing it," do you say, "Oh, that makes it okay, then"?

Of course not. Eating poison is still dangerous, even if everyone is doing it. Working on the Sabbath is still working on the Sabbath, even if everyone else is doing it. Everyone ELSE is a sinner, Jesus was supposed to be without sin and blameless.

But he wasn't. He worked on the Sabbath and used the excuse of "everyone else is doing it."

Well, everyone else isn't without sin...

So for him to do the same sins as everyone else, and use "you do it, so can I" as an excuse, shows that he was NOT WITHOUT SIN.

And furthermore, Jesus claimed that the first two commandments would make you keep all the rest automatically. Obviously, since Jesus broke all the rest of them, this isn't true at all.

Offline PhoenixTopic starter

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2009, 09:41:09 AM »
I also thought I'd point out, I did more than read the Bible a few times, I went so far as to study it intensively for years. I went to Seminary, in fact.

It was this intensive study that finally caused me to realize that I just couldn't believe in it anymore. There were far too many questions I had that the 'experts' on the Bible just couldn't answer.

One of them, which was kind of the tipping point for me, was when Jesus said that anyone who says, "You fool" will go to hell.

Then Jesus says, "You blind fools!" to the Pharisees.

The whole concept that Jesus could do all the sinning he wanted to do, and be sinless, just doesn't fly with me. It's too much like a parent that says, "Do as I say, not as I do. Whatever I do is right, even if it's wrong."

Jesus was supposed to be blameless and sinless. Yes, this is a sticking point. The whole entire "savior" concept relies upon Jesus being sinless. The perfect sacrifice.

But Jesus did a LOT of things that were just really ugly. He had temper tantrums, he cursed cities. The excuse is "well, that's out of context," or "it was Jesus, and Jesus is god, he can do whatever he wants to do."

So Jesus can sin because he's God and therefor sinless, even if he sins? lol wut?

Sorry, this kind of twisted logic doesn't work for me. Until he died, for him to be the perfect sacrifice, he would have had to be without sin. This is what the Bible claims, that he was without sin.

And THIS IS NOT TRUE. He did sin. For whatever reason or whatever excuse, HE DID SIN. He can't get away with all sorts of sin, just because "I'm god," yet then try to claim he is without sin. Either he was without sin, or he sinned.

As a perfect person, he should have been above anger, theft, and working on the Sabbath. He shouldn't have broken any of the 10 Commandments, because he was PERFECT and WITHOUT sin.

Nowhere does the Bible say, "A sin isn't a sin if Jesus does it." It says that he was perfect and without sin.

It takes some convoluted thinking to make him be without sin, when he himself says that anger is a sin, but then he has plenty of bouts of anger himself.

I wasn't able to get myself to do the mental acrobatics required to make Jesus able to sin and yet be without sin at the same time.

Offline Archermonkey

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Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2009, 09:51:56 AM »
This concept of Jesus being sinless is itself taken vastly out of context, according to my reading of the text, and understanding of the original.  The Ancient Greek word which gets translated into modern English as 'sin' is 'amartia'.  Literally translated this actually means 'missing the mark'.  Clearly the direct translation has somewhat different connotations to the version we use that carries 2000 years of baggage.  ('Sin', incidentally, is from the Latin 'sinister', meaning 'left handed'.  I'm not sure of the precise history of the term, but this clearly relates to so-called left-handed, or self-oriented systems of magic in the mysticism of the last few centuries or so.)

Combined with the biblical concept that those who are with sin cannot be in the presence of God (ask me about how this makes any kind of sense at all when viewed in the light of an infinite God if you want to get me really going), this suggests that the 'mark' is the presence of God.  Thus anything which separates the individual from the Divine is sinful.  Anything which unites them is pure.  Hence the new commandments of Christ, to love thy neighbour as thyself, and to love the Lord God with all thine heart thine mind and thine soul.

Jesus, being in union with God, was inherently without sin as he had 'hit the mark'.

Christian esotericism.  It makes so much more sense than the exoteric stuff that has been watered down and misunderstood for 2000 years, and requires some actual thought and critical understanding both of oneself and of one's scripture.  I'm a fan.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2009, 09:56:50 AM »
('Sin', incidentally, is from the Latin 'sinister', meaning 'left handed'.  I'm not sure of the precise history of the term, but this clearly relates to so-called left-handed, or self-oriented systems of magic in the mysticism of the last few centuries or so.)

Actually, it has more to do with the fact that the majority of humans are right-handed, and therefore someone who was left-handed was 'imperfect', 'clumsy' (reference the French 'gauche', also meaning left or left-handed, and the word 'dexterous', derived from dexter (L. right) or - by extension - 'evil'.

The use of the term 'left-handed' to describe systems of magic comes from that misconception.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 09:58:09 AM by Oniya »

Offline Archermonkey

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Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2009, 09:59:02 AM »
Right.  I should have been clearer: I didn't mean relates in a causal sense, but rather that the terms are related.  I'm familiar with dexter as the counterpart.  Your explanation for the origin of the term makes sense, though.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2009, 03:27:30 PM »
So, by this setup if we attempt to go through and place the events in context to give further light to the events and show Jesus’ actions in more depth than it is an attempt to weasel out of the argument.  There is only one way in which to interpret the Bible and to do so in another fashion is wrong, because there is only one way.  The Truth is evident in the words and they cannot be altered.  An interesting setup and consistent with the very people you claim to have such a problem with from the Christian religion.

These quotes and the site they were taken from are both grasping at straws.  They are looking at words on a page, saying “aha we have Jesus doing something sneaky.”  Then they are covering it with context of their own design and slapping it on a web page.  A perfect example is the one where Jesus “forbids” the man from burying his father.  Jesus did not forbid the man to bury his father, he said that if the man was to follow him than he could not.  I have a feeling, considering the passage above and below that one where Jesus is hurriedly traveling, that Jesus may have meant follow in the literal sense of the word.  As in, “I really don’t have time to stop.”

Jesus spent his life showing the fallacies of the current religion and its politics at the time.  He waged his battle against the Pharisee and the occupying Romans at the time.  He pointed out their hypocrisy by asking why he could not heal someone on the Sabbath, when those same people would help their ox if injured on the Sabbath.  Jesus brought words of compassion and tolerance to the Jewish people.  He also knew that his words would tear apart families.  The message he brought was disturbing people in power and was tearing apart families.  That he knew this would happen, that he knew his meaning would cause rifts does not mean he set out to destroy families or to bring the sword.

I find it a sad thing that one of his acts of great compassion is twisted to infer that he slept with so many women.  He brought the word of God to women, including prostitutes, without the prejudice that others showed.  Some historians even believe that Mary was one of his greatest followers and teachers.  He taught, healed and worked with women at this side.  This website then exploits this part  to say he “might” be sleeping with them.  Nothing in any of those lines even hints at sex, but the site paints its own version over them with innuendo and inference. 

Am I saying that this is the right or wrong way to read the Bible, certainly not.  Maybe Jesus was an asshole that tricked the world into believing him.  Maybe he was the Son of God made flesh to save us from our sins.  Maybe he was a religious man that saw his country ravished by corrupt officials and Roman soldiers and spoke out against them.  I don’t know.  I do know it’s pretty silly to say there is only one way to read the Bible and any other way is just weaseling out. 

I ask there to be a bit more substance to the accusations that my religion is evil and its teachings psychologically damaging than some website.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2009, 03:53:23 PM »
Jesus spent his life showing the fallacies of the current religion and its politics at the time.  He waged his battle against the Pharisee and the occupying Romans at the time.  He pointed out their hypocrisy by asking why he could not heal someone on the Sabbath, when those same people would help their ox if injured on the Sabbath.  Jesus brought words of compassion and tolerance to the Jewish people.  He also knew that his words would tear apart families.  The message he brought was disturbing people in power and was tearing apart families.  That he knew this would happen, that he knew his meaning would cause rifts does not mean he set out to destroy families or to bring the sword.

I find it a sad thing that one of his acts of great compassion is twisted to infer that he slept with so many women.  He brought the word of God to women, including prostitutes, without the prejudice that others showed.  Some historians even believe that Mary was one of his greatest followers and teachers.  He taught, healed and worked with women at this side.  This website then exploits this part  to say he “might” be sleeping with them.  Nothing in any of those lines even hints at sex, but the site paints its own version over them with innuendo and inference. 

It's also important to realize how much of the words attributed to Jesus were in the form of analogies.  Matt 7:6 (the pearls before swine verse) doesn't mean that he is calling the people he's talking about 'dogs' or 'swine'.  He's saying that it's no good putting something valuable in front of someone who won't appreciate it - much like the website isn't appreciating the acts of compassion that I referred to earlier.

The Martha and Mary story shows that each person can choose to serve God in his/her own way - Martha chooses to serve by - well, serving (food etc.) and Mary chooses to serve by listening to his word.  The idea that 'providing for them out of their means' is some sort of innuendo is absurd - if it were males instead of females, would that phrase mean that Jesus was a homosexual?  Oh wait - there's always the 'Disciple that Jesus loved' (John 20:2).  There we go.  Obviously sinful.

One thing I've learned in my search for my own spirituality is that if you follow directly behind anyone - be they the purest unicorn or the biggest ass - you better be prepared to wade through a lot of crap.  By approaching a work with a preconception of what it contains - again, be that the 'Jesus is wonderful' or 'Jesus was a hypocritical jerk' - That's what you'll find!  Approach with a Beginner's Mind and make your own decisions.

Offline PhoenixTopic starter

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2009, 04:16:38 PM »
When there are gifts given in the Bible, they are listed. In various other documents of the time, the "rendering of their substance" comments are definitely not about pots, pans, or other GOODS of any kind. There's no list of what the women gave Jesus. These writers were careful to list everything else, but didn't bother to list gifts given to a dying man? And they all KNEW he was about to die, so why would women come and give him pots and pans?

The phrase isn't used for gift giving. It's not used for tithing. It's not used for donation. It's not used for payment.

It's used in this spot, at that time... a time when it makes no logical sense for people to be giving the dead man gifts of pots or pans or rugs.

And hey, as far as trying to weasel out of it, that's my opinion. I listened to preachers stand on their proverbial heads all the time trying to weasel out of the fact that Jesus stole the donkeys, Jesus worked on the Sabbath, and the various other things that Jesus did.

The story about pearls before swine was VERY obviously intended to put unbelievers in their place. In fact, Jesus later goes on to curse anyone who refuses to believe. But sure, if we isolate the parable all by itself, without Jesus' subsequent cursing of anyone who refuses to welcome and believe him/his disciples, then it might seem harmless enough.

But of course, we can't do that, only Christians can decide the context of things, and only Christians can choose to leave out important additional contexts like the cursing of the two cities for refusing to listen to Jesus. That evidence throws the whole swine story right back into its original light. Jesus was obviously scornful of anyone who wouldn't accept him.

I know that Christians HAVE to make excuses. That doesn't change my opinion of those excuses.

Some things simply can't be excused, and no matter how many ways you try to portray a rat, it's still a rat. You can feel free to try to turn it into a kitten, but the sad truth of it is that Jesus DID break the commandments, and WAS NOT without sin.

You can make excuses for sinning, but you can't make them not sins.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2009, 05:10:12 PM »
Okay - I'm going to admit I think I'm a bit confused as to the purpose of this thread.  I was under the impression that it was to invite debate and discussion.  So far, any interpretation that doesn't agree with this rather biased website is being summarily blown off with something along the lines of 'Christians have to make excuses for it.'

As I said before, I'm not a Catholic.  I'm not even Christian.  I have no reason to 'make excuses for it'.  If you're looking for validation, seek it within.  I doubt you'll find it here.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Derail prevention thread re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2009, 05:55:37 PM »
I'm going to lock this.

I would suggest separating the books of the Bible from Christians. Christian means follower of Christ, and that has an immense array of definitions, including many who believe Jesus was a mortal and some who even doubt he existed. When you mix them all together you draw up a lot of emotional baggage and that's no way to convince anyone, even on a site that has a pretty fair number of non-Christians.