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Author Topic: Putting Faith in Its Place  (Read 6036 times)

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Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Putting Faith in Its Place
« on: September 30, 2009, 08:09:51 PM »

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Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2009, 10:24:46 PM »
Sure if you believe this existence is real then all that's true.

Offline Moon and Star

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2009, 12:30:30 AM »
Sure if you believe this existence is real then all that's true.

Wait, what? Are you suggesting the Matrix has us all? ;D Heehee

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2009, 12:47:29 AM »
There is no wooden spoon.

Offline Silk

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2009, 02:02:26 AM »
I really respect Qualia soups stuff, he talks much sense.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2009, 02:10:16 AM »
Sure if you believe this existence is real then all that's true.


I suppose it can be open to interpretation on whether this existence is real.

Of course if itís not (and there might not ever be a way to prove or disprove that statement), then thereís no real reason to believe anything else is real, unless you are preceding under the notion that world around us is some massive simulacrum existing inside of something 'real'.

In that case, weíre lab rats, and on those grounds I dispute the common definitions on a supreme being that the video is also debunking.


And again, if weíre lab rats, then there is a lab technician somewhere, and that is also making assumptions on a creator that the video marked as a huge no-no.

If the universe isnít real, itís possible weíre not either. Or using the Matrix analogy, weíre not what we think we are.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 02:11:43 AM by The Overlord »

Offline Phoenix

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2009, 09:00:06 AM »
I've never understood evangelical atheists.

At least Christians have a reason, however absurd, for their evangelism. But it seems to me that evangelical atheists just enjoy pissing on people's parades.

If I had to be an atheist-- or a Christian, for that matter, I'd shoot myself.

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Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2009, 11:30:57 AM »

I suppose it can be open to interpretation on whether this existence is real.

Of course if itís not (and there might not ever be a way to prove or disprove that statement), then thereís no real reason to believe anything else is real, unless you are preceding under the notion that world around us is some massive simulacrum existing inside of something 'real'.

In that case, weíre lab rats, and on those grounds I dispute the common definitions on a supreme being that the video is also debunking.


And again, if weíre lab rats, then there is a lab technician somewhere, and that is also making assumptions on a creator that the video marked as a huge no-no.

If the universe isnít real, itís possible weíre not either. Or using the Matrix analogy, weíre not what we think we are.
The point is on some level humans are always believing, or as Science likes to put it. "It's understood to be true."

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2009, 01:53:16 PM »
I've never understood evangelical atheists.

At least Christians have a reason, however absurd, for their evangelism. But it seems to me that evangelical atheists just enjoy pissing on people's parades.

If I had to be an atheist-- or a Christian, for that matter, I'd shoot myself.

Christians believe what they believe is the best way.

So do atheists.

So does everyone else really.

Each has as much right to their own opinions and beliefs as anyone else.

Offline Dizzi

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2009, 02:01:12 PM »
1: it's good to see a God basher that can back himself up

2: if billions of people want to believe in something that makes them happy, and 99% of thos (I don;t know all religions so I'm leaving the possibibility) is to uphold good morals and be happy, help people out etc.  Why argue it!?


Offline Phoenix

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2009, 02:16:06 PM »
Christians believe what they believe is the best way.

So do atheists.

So does everyone else really.

Each has as much right to their own opinions and beliefs as anyone else.

I didn't say anyone didn't have a right to their beliefs. What I'm saying is that it seems kind of strange and even uncharacteristic for an atheist to be evangelical. I don't know why the vid was made, but it smacks of evangelism.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2009, 02:23:23 PM »
If someone ferverently believes in something, they can want to share that belief. To teach you that that belief is right. To get you to understand so that you can believe too.

Religion
Politics
Philosophy
Football

I'm sure you'll find such evangelist in any number of places, and with any number of beliefs.

Offline Phoenix

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2009, 02:48:33 PM »
If someone ferverently believes in something, they can want to share that belief. To teach you that that belief is right. To get you to understand so that you can believe too.

Religion
Politics
Philosophy
Football

I'm sure you'll find such evangelist in any number of places, and with any number of beliefs.

I'm sure you're right. :)

I suppose my problem is that I simply can't see any reason to be excited about atheism.  XD

Offline Vekseid

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 03:56:12 PM »
I've never understood evangelical atheists.

At least Christians have a reason, however absurd, for their evangelism. But it seems to me that evangelical atheists just enjoy pissing on people's parades.

If I had to be an atheist-- or a Christian, for that matter, I'd shoot myself.

A person's first year of leaving a religion is usually marked by an intense revulsion of their previous religion. It's difficult to explain but I went through it and it has been an active topic discussion in the circles I've been in - the 'first year effect'.

After that they usually mellow out, though some specific sects or beliefs may be particularly targeted for inherently moral reasons - faith is not always harmless, after all.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2009, 03:58:18 PM »
I'm sure you're right. :)

I suppose my problem is that I simply can't see any reason to be excited about atheism.  XD

An atheist or christian might think the same about your beliefs. :)

Offline Vekseid

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2009, 04:16:47 PM »
An atheist or christian might think the same about your beliefs. :)

Atheism is simply a statement. It's the overall philosophy that engages. Carl Sagan does not interest?

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2009, 05:37:08 PM »
The point is on some level humans are always believing, or as Science likes to put it. "It's understood to be true."

Science and empirical observation arenít really about belief at all. We accept our observations to be true until something else is observed or discovered that negates that. At some point they become scientific law. Until then, unbiased science accepts its observations might need revision.

As a mathematics professor once put it to me, there are some concepts in math you have to take on a leap of faith to do the math, but no one doubts 2x2=4.

Point is, science has proven scientific laws and these are concrete things we base our civilization on. They are testable with the same results again and again. If you want to call all that a potential illusion then thereís no real reason to believe in anything, including a god or gods.

If I canít even rely on the fact that the planetís atmosphere is surrounding me and filling my lungs on a moment to moment basis, an invisible supreme being in the sky sure ainít gonna hold water.

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2009, 05:44:04 PM »
If someone ferverently believes in something, they can want to share that belief. To teach you that that belief is right. To get you to understand so that you can believe too.

Religion
Politics
Philosophy
Football

I'm sure you'll find such evangelist in any number of places, and with any number of beliefs.


As Iíve said above, there are known qualities about the world and universe around us, based on solid fact and not belief.

The things I am learned in I try to pass on to willing ears or to people with questions and curiosity. Iím doing it to enlighten them of the truth, not to save their soul or any of that drivel.


There is nothing right involved in trying to convince people of things that have an absolute zero shred of evidence.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2009, 07:04:41 PM »
How many of those rock solid facts were we unable to prove 20 years ago? Or 50? Or 100?

As we become more advanced we can learn more. Who is to say that centuries from now there may not be proof for things currently considered unprovable?

As for zero evidence ...  I experience something. Let's say I see a ghost (or think I do). I can tell you about it, tell you what I saw, heard, felt. I can't offer you physical evidence, or indeed anything beyond my own experience. Does that lack of evidence mean I experienced nothing?

Offline Serephino

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2009, 08:32:54 PM »
Well, it means that you experienced something that may or may not make you a believer in ghosts.  It would all depend on how intense the experience was, and how open minded you are. 

Now if you do become a believer and relate the experience to someone like my mother, she will call you crazy.  Hell, she's experienced paranormal activity.  I know because I was there and experienced it too.  But she was hell bent on explaining it away. 

You may know you experienced something, but without physical evidence one that doesn't believe in ghosts probably wouldn't believe you until they saw it themselves.  That's how the human mind works. 

Oh, and I sent this to my hardcore Christian acquaintance.  Here is what she wrote back;

this is a load of crap! this just goes to show the prophesies in the bible are coming true. we don't think we need God because we are God! this makes me sick to my stomach! 

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2009, 09:44:52 PM »
How many of those rock solid facts were we unable to prove 20 years ago? Or 50? Or 100?

As we become more advanced we can learn more. Who is to say that centuries from now there may not be proof for things currently considered unprovable?



The fact that we canít prove them yet doesnít make them any less true of course. I for one donít believe thereís anything that canít eventually be proved, given enough time and effort, likely even a supreme being. However, many of aspects of that creator, as touched on in the video, are so deliberately vague as to be useless in terms of verifying. If you believe god is some unknowable, non-physical being, how do you ever expect to get proof for something when youíre really not even sure what youíre looking for?

As for zero evidence ...  I experience something. Let's say I see a ghost (or think I do). I can tell you about it, tell you what I saw, heard, felt. I can't offer you physical evidence, or indeed anything beyond my own experience. Does that lack of evidence mean I experienced nothing?

Youíre making an obvious stretch into theology with this. The problem is that all human definitions of god are just that, human definitions. Being that most of them mutually disagree, the odds of any one of them being correct is astronomical, but weíve been over this part in another thread.

The existence of ghosts, and the parallel existence or state they are said to dwell in, does not automatically assume the existence of a creator, although I know many think along those lines.


If you experienced something, there can be many causes, external or internal of course. And it might have actually been a ghost.

So going that route, have you experienced evidence of god? And by evidence I donít mean ĎfaithíÖthat's going back on that vicious little circle that a critical mind has to ignore if you want to have a leg to stand on. Faith is simply the belief in the absence of evidence, as Carl Sagan put it.

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Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2009, 11:51:42 PM »
I like faith.  Faith makes me happy.  I don't care that you don't like it.  I'm not fazed by your utter dislike for it.  I don't know why you have such a problem with other people having faith.  Unless it hurts someone else then there's nothing wrong with it.

Offline Jude

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2009, 07:16:08 AM »
I don't think there's anything wrong with faith, but equating reason and science to religious belief is a little silly.  What makes them different is that science actually has concrete uses and applications; it's good for something beyond the placebo effect.  The very device you're using right now is one of its fruits.

If belief in Christianity were to result in the creation in a Personal Jesputer that is also capable of searching the net you'd have a point.

You can't really consider the peace of mind you get from it an advantage either; because then there's no reason to believe in any specific religion at all because all offer that same comfort in thinking you know what you don't.

Religious beliefs simply aren't applicable or useful in any concrete, discernible fashion.

That doesn't make them invalid; it's possible that god exists and science/reason are accurate as well.  It just means that from our current fact-based perspective comparing the two is not really fair from an unbiased viewpoint.  One has proven itself and continues to do so in our daily lives, the other... well... supposedly you have to wait til you die to reap the benefits.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 07:17:54 AM by Jude »

Offline The OverlordTopic starter

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2009, 07:57:59 AM »
I like faith.  Faith makes me happy.  I don't care that you don't like it.  I'm not fazed by your utter dislike for it.  I don't know why you have such a problem with other people having faith.  Unless it hurts someone else then there's nothing wrong with it.

Nah, you got it all misinterpreted again.

I donít hate faith. I see faith something like electricity or nuclear energy. It has value and use at times, but it can also be used to work great evil.


Look, I just got done arguing with my crazy-ass cousin on Facebook, who is a non-cessationist Christian that seems to get some perverse pleasure out of informing the rest of us weíre doomed to be Chicken McNuggets in some lower-planar deep fryer just for asking too many questions or not believing in his version of god.

I mean shit, at least with Santa you just wonít get presents the next dayÖjust a little over the top.


He canít see to get the fact thatís not OK to try to convince people of things you canít possibly prove with the current means at your disposal. Heís busted about every no-no in the video I posted regarding rational and well-reasoned arguments.


Personal faith is good thing, as long as it doesnít get you to blow up buildings and believe youíre going to better place as a reward for it. Thatís the extreme example of course, but a lot of organized faith moves a lot more subtly and dastardly in nature. I am moved to agree with my brotherís recent observation, watching the way politics are moving inside US borders. The Christian right has no real use for democracy. For the hard-liners, it's their way or the highway; something the rest of us are going to battle them on at every front.




So why do I speak out? Well, few of you religious seem very timid about your convictions. I see it from all angles today, from people I personally know to idiots in the media.

If you think itís OK to speak up for your faith, thatís fine. The opposing philosophies need a cutting edge, and guess what, Iím one of them. Continue to flaunt your theology, and Iíll continue to call you out on where itís wrong.


Iím not trying to convert you away from your beliefs or anything like thatÖIím just trying to give you a little dose of reality.

What you do with it is your deal.

Again, I donít hate faith in of itself. I hate what some people do with, or try to justify with it. I hate those people.

Hope that clears things up for you. :)

Offline Phoenix

Re: Putting Faith in Its Place
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2009, 08:47:59 AM »
You can't really consider the peace of mind you get from it an advantage either; because then there's no reason to believe in any specific religion at all because all offer that same comfort in thinking you know what you don't.

I'm not a Christian, but I am a spiritual person after a certain sort. I most certainly can, and do, consider the peace of mind I get from it to be an advantage. Now YOU may do as you wish with regards to your opinion of whether or not peace of mind is an advantage. So, however, can I.

Accepting for a moment the idea that there is no god and what I can see, hear, taste, smell, and feel are the only things that exist (obviously untrue), then there's no reason whatsoever for me not to do whatever makes me feel genuinely happy and at peace.

Peace, of course, is something I cannot see, feel, taste, smell, or hear... but I still enjoy experiencing it. As an atheist, it is highly illogical for you to attempt to destroy someone's enjoyment of life. For it's been proven that those who are happy are better contributors to society.

And neither atheism nor religion seem to be precursors to being happy. Therefor, if one is happy as a religious person, then there's every reason to encourage them to continue to be happy.

Look, I just got done arguing with my crazy-ass cousin on Facebook, who is a non-cessationist Christian that seems to get some perverse pleasure out of informing the rest of us weíre doomed to be Chicken McNuggets in some lower-planar deep fryer just for asking too many questions or not believing in his version of god.


This, IMO, is why I find Christianity to be one of those religions that aren't a harmless practice. In fact, Christianity is psyhologically extremely damaging. Especially to young children who are raised in this belief system.

The Christian god is little more than a violent abuser... yet Christian children are raised to believe that this god is "loving." Therefor, the religion equates violent abuse with love. Murderous, wrathful, vengeful, violent, despotic... all ways of this god showing his 'love.'

So I agree with you in some part, that there ARE religions that are actively dangerous. In particular, religions such as this which show 'god' as a violent aggressor, while claiming that this being is "loving" and far above humans in both intelligence and capacity for love.

Not only that, but the Christian religion has brutalized and destroyed incredible numbers of peoples and cultures.

Quote
...[snip for length]...

Iím not trying to convert you away from your beliefs or anything like thatÖIím just trying to give you a little dose of reality.

Unfortunately, the derisive tone you take with your "reality" bits, decries the first part of this statement.

So far as your Christian cousin is concerned, he's just trying to do the same for you. Clearly, you find it obnoxious as hell (and it is), so why do you do it to others? Was someone here trying to convert you?

[I'm being slightly devil's-advocate here... I assume that you're just venting, but I think it's still a valid question, given the tone you've since taken that you are supposedly educating the peasants herebouts as to the 'realities' of life]