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Author Topic: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)  (Read 4611 times)

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Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2009, 03:34:14 AM »
AD&D seems kind of hard to learn compared to 3.5

It does look intimidating.  But once you learn it, the gameplay is easier.  For instance, in an attack there's one die roll to determine hits and a second for damage (if the first roll is a hit) as opposed to strike and counterstrike and whatnot.  Plus, OSRIC is freely accessible, so it makes a good common denominator.

The main reason I don't like 3.5 is because it actually took me less time to compute and complete my income tax return last year than it did to create a 3.5 character.  With OSRIC/AD&D, you roll the six ability scores, pick your alignment and class, choose your spells (if applicable), equipment--and that's about it.  You can use nonweapon proficiencies if you want--you simply pick from a list rather than fuss with skill points, ranks and whatnot.

In short, it's enough system to provide some structure, but not so much as to be a pain in the ass.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2009, 03:39:29 AM »
I just use a character generator. But the amount of literature on 3.5 is stunning. I was never a big fan of the restrictions on classes in AD&D2. But I am aching to play some D&D

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2009, 03:48:23 AM »
I just use a character generator. But the amount of literature on 3.5 is stunning. I was never a big fan of the restrictions on classes in AD&D2. But I am aching to play some D&D

I never was either, which is why when I ran AD&D 2 games I ignored most of that.  Ditto for level limits.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2009, 04:14:02 AM »
Level limits? Not sure what you mean.

And you would hate 4th E, because they basically made every class play like the classes from The Book of 9 Swords in 3.5

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2009, 04:24:11 AM »
Level limits? Not sure what you mean.

And you would hate 4th E, because they basically made every class play like the classes from The Book of 9 Swords in 3.5

My biggest bone to pick with Third and above is it's basically a port of WoW to pencil-and-paper, with a few concepts borrowed from Dungeons and Dragons.  It should have been called "Dungeons and Warcraft."

Level limits in some of the earlier versions of D&D capped the level advancement of nonhumans.  Many players and DMs, myself included, either raised the caps or eliminated them entirely from our games.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2009, 04:28:50 AM »
I thought 3E predates WOW (I can't remember) but I love 3.5. I just can't stand how 4E is basically all stuff you see in games like WOW. The character stuff is so limiting and there's so much effort to balance that most of the classes and characters are too powerful it seems.

Also have you tried Pathfinder?

Online Thufir Hawat

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2009, 05:23:48 AM »
When a DM told me he was ignoring level limits for non-humans, my first question was "do humans get multi-classing, then" ;)?
That said, guys, if you allow me to give you an advice - stop discussing systems! Well, I enjoy it, so we can open a new thread for it, but here is not the place... :D
Most free-form people who are willing to try their hand at systems couldn't participate meaningfully...for now :P. If you are willing to GM, offer them a "package deal", complete with setting, system and your GMing style and assumptions. I find the latter to be more important than the actual system for their enjoyment of the game. Sure, a system they intuitively dislike might ruin it for them, but I've seen more games being disrupted by clashes of assumptions...
If that happens, hopefully, they will remember that systems are different. We should make it clear by then, if they look at the other thread I'm suggesting ;D!

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2009, 08:35:44 AM »
My biggest bone to pick with Third and above is it's basically a port of WoW to pencil-and-paper, with a few concepts borrowed from Dungeons and Dragons.  It should have been called "Dungeons and Warcraft."

Third Edition predated World of Warcraft.  Vastly.

But then, these objections are rarely about facts, so why should you bother to learn any?

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2009, 08:41:47 AM »
I just can't stand how 4E is basically all stuff you see in games like WOW.

Yeah, it has character classes, and races, and treasures, and magic weapons and spells, and you gain experience and level up and there's hit points and...totally like WoW.  Absolutely.

Quote
The character stuff is so limiting and there's so much effort to balance that most of the classes and characters are too powerful it seems.

Character "stuff" is limiting?  You can play a fighter, a wizard, a rogue (thief), or a cleric.  There's humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings.  Pretty much the classic D&D setup already, and that's only half the races and classes.  If someone is unable to put together an interesting character within the framework of the rules, I'd suggest that's not a problem with the system.

Your second objection is completely nonsensical.  The game is balanced -> overpowered?  Bwuh?  I'm going to guess that you haven't actually bothered to understand how the game system functions, much less played it.  But it "seems" overpowered.  Maybe, and here's a thought, it was simply designed to let the PCs be mighty heroes and badasses.  Not everyone likes that (hell, I love going back and playing OD&D sometimes), but it's not a fault of the game to succeed at its design goals.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2009, 08:48:58 AM »
I thought 3E predates WOW (I can't remember) but I love 3.5. I just can't stand how 4E is basically all stuff you see in games like WOW. The character stuff is so limiting and there's so much effort to balance that most of the classes and characters are too powerful it seems.

Also have you tried Pathfinder?

It (3e) is Pre-WoW.. now 4E is definitely WoW on paper.

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2009, 08:55:27 AM »
now 4E is definitely WoW on paper.

Yeah, just keep on trotting out the same tired, ridiculous talking points over and over.  If you keep grinding at this quest, you will eventually gain the "My way of pretending to be an elf is better than your way of pretending to be an elf" achievement.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2009, 09:24:29 AM »
Yeah, just keep on trotting out the same tired, ridiculous talking points over and over.  If you keep grinding at this quest, you will eventually gain the "My way of pretending to be an elf is better than your way of pretending to be an elf" achievement.

Not that WoW is bad (I'm an Uber WoW fan.. 3 80s on Silvermoon). It's just 4e wasn't DnD at all. Not one bit. Sorry , not buying it. I was a bit put off by the way they did Multiclasses (one of my favorite sections) and it went down here from there. When I found out you could 'disenchant' magic items into a fine dust used to make new magic items I put the books back in the slip case and they have mouldered on my shelf since then.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2009, 09:34:46 AM »
Yeah, it has character classes, and races, and treasures, and magic weapons and spells, and you gain experience and level up and there's hit points and...totally like WoW.  Absolutely.

Character "stuff" is limiting?  You can play a fighter, a wizard, a rogue (thief), or a cleric.  There's humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings.  Pretty much the classic D&D setup already, and that's only half the races and classes.  If someone is unable to put together an interesting character within the framework of the rules, I'd suggest that's not a problem with the system.

Your second objection is completely nonsensical.  The game is balanced -> overpowered?  Bwuh?  I'm going to guess that you haven't actually bothered to understand how the game system functions, much less played it.  But it "seems" overpowered.  Maybe, and here's a thought, it was simply designed to let the PCs be mighty heroes and badasses.  Not everyone likes that (hell, I love going back and playing OD&D sometimes), but it's not a fault of the game to succeed at its design goals.

Actually I meant the way that the moves work, but you know there's absolutely no reason to act rude about it, I was simply expressing an opinion. I'm not a fan of 4E or WOW actually, and I've tried to play both, own all the books for 4E on PDF and basically ever 3.5 and 3E and AD&D2 supplement. I haven't read over them all, but I have seen AD&D be played and I have played the others, I am running a 3.5 game right now and I am playing in several others, the system is better to me and all classes aren't meant to be balanced, that's the nature of games. Basically every game I played certain classes were good for certain things. If everyone is good all the time it sucks, there's no specialization. Then the powers, I don't like them because they seem more limiting than the Feats were. The powers remind me of the book of nine swords stuff (which is one of the books I tend to disallow)

Every alignment has Paladins? What's up with that? I didn't even like the Paladin of Slaughter and Tyranny now you can have them anywhere. I also don't like the alignment system and other things seem dumbed down.

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2009, 09:51:11 AM »
Not that WoW is bad (I'm an Uber WoW fan.. 3 80s on Silvermoon). It's just 4e wasn't DnD at all. Not one bit. Sorry , not buying it. I was a bit put off by the way they did Multiclasses (one of my favorite sections) and it went down here from there. When I found out you could 'disenchant' magic items into a fine dust used to make new magic items I put the books back in the slip case and they have mouldered on my shelf since then.

It's a very *different* game, and indeed no one is obligated to like it.  I personally can't stand running 3.x once the game reaches levels around the double digits.

What irritates me is hearing the endless, senseless, and inconsistent attacks on a game, most of which seem calculated to accomplish nothing more than to cloak the attacker in false roleplaying superiority.

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2009, 10:00:27 AM »
Actually I meant the way that the moves work, but you know there's absolutely no reason to act rude about it, I was simply expressing an opinion.

You are absolutely welcome to hold and express the opinion that 4E is not the game for you.  Once your opinion wanders into the territory of stating some factual matter, though (unreasonable resemblance to WoW), it's not impolite at all to challenge your statements. 

Further, you need to realize that your statements do not exist in a vacuum.  There is a context in place.  That context is endless, stupid edition wars which have broken out across what seems like every roleplaying game board on the internet.  I find it very difficult to believe you aren't aware of this argument, because you've came out with exactly the same pointless criticisms that have already been countered ad nauseum.

So, there's a nearly-necessary conclusion that when someone comes out with more 4E=WoW!1!!! garbage, they're not really thinking it through, and there's no point in treating it with much charity.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2009, 10:08:18 AM »
It's a very *different* game, and indeed no one is obligated to like it.  I personally can't stand running 3.x once the game reaches levels around the double digits.

What irritates me is hearing the endless, senseless, and inconsistent attacks on a game, most of which seem calculated to accomplish nothing more than to cloak the attacker in false roleplaying superiority.

Well I find a lot of 3.X's warts are fixed by Pathfinder. And no offense but I don't like the cookie cutter method of allowing 'you can use this attack x times in a fight/day/hour' method of 4e.

Not to mention Wizards near total boycott on anything they don't approach/control. I miss the hard copy versions of Dragon/Dungeon, and the availability of all the old stuff on PDF was nice.. but Wizards/Hasbro's heavy handed handling of that sort of soured me on them.

Offline Cythieus

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2009, 10:13:05 AM »
You are absolutely welcome to hold and express the opinion that 4E is not the game for you.  Once your opinion wanders into the territory of stating some factual matter, though (unreasonable resemblance to WoW), it's not impolite at all to challenge your statements. 

Further, you need to realize that your statements do not exist in a vacuum.  There is a context in place.  That context is endless, stupid edition wars which have broken out across what seems like every roleplaying game board on the internet.  I find it very difficult to believe you aren't aware of this argument, because you've came out with exactly the same pointless criticisms that have already been countered ad nauseum.

So, there's a nearly-necessary conclusion that when someone comes out with more 4E=WoW!1!!! garbage, they're not really thinking it through, and there's no point in treating it with much charity.

I actually thought it was like WOW before anyone ever told me, back when I listened to the Penny Arcade podcast they did before the game was out. I don't float in gaming networks and I've only been role playing for a little over a year now. My complains about the game are pretty valid. A lot of people using a complaint doesn't make it invalid or valid and when I played 4E, it was right after I started to understand 3.5. So its not like I was poisoned by years of exposure to one...

And as Callie said, Pathfinder fixes a lot of 3.5's issues. Pathfinder Half-Elves are the best.

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2009, 10:14:36 AM »
Well I find a lot of 3.X's warts are fixed by Pathfinder. And no offense but I don't like the cookie cutter method of allowing 'you can use this attack x times in a fight/day/hour' method of 4e.

Not to mention Wizards near total boycott on anything they don't approach/control. I miss the hard copy versions of Dragon/Dungeon, and the availability of all the old stuff on PDF was nice.. but Wizards/Hasbro's heavy handed handling of that sort of soured me on them.

Fair enough, nobody sane will tell you you have to like it.  I don't think there's such a drastic difference in 4E's split of powers and the old vancian system, but I mostly view it as an abstraction of what's going on in the game world.  It works well enough in play.

I've looked into Pathfinder, and it's definitely really neat, but I don't believe it's addressed any of the problems I actually *had* with 3.x.

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2009, 10:18:54 AM »
I don't float in gaming networks and I've only been role playing for a little over a year now.

May I suggest, then, that you may not know enough about the history of D&D to put your issues into proper context?  Has it occurred to you that if WoW & D&D resemble each other to some degree, it's because of their deeply intertwined common ancestry?  The whole genre of CRPGs and later MMOs was heavily informed by D&D and other tabletop RPGs.  If there's been some cross-pollination, why would that be crazy or even a bad idea?

Quote
My complains about the game are pretty valid. A lot of people using a complaint doesn't make it invalid or valid and when I played 4E, it was right after I started to understand 3.5. So its not like I was poisoned by years of exposure to one...

Saying your complaints are valid don't make them so.  A lot of people making a complaint doesn't make it invalid, it makes it repetitive and annoying, especially when they feel the need to spout off about it in unrelated threads. 

Offline Cythieus

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2009, 10:21:30 AM »
Fair enough, nobody sane will tell you you have to like it.  I don't think there's such a drastic difference in 4E's split of powers and the old vancian system, but I mostly view it as an abstraction of what's going on in the game world.  It works well enough in play.

I've looked into Pathfinder, and it's definitely really neat, but I don't believe it's addressed any of the problems I actually *had* with 3.x.

A huge problem I had with 3.5 was many of the interesting aspects, didn't work well in game. For instance one of my favorite classes concept wise is the Swashbuckler. But I have had DM's disallow them on the grounds that they don't carry enough weight in the party. Then the Half-Elf, I love the idea of a mixed race like that where you get to role play what the aspects of that culture would mean. But why take it when you will end up with one more feat for being Human or better DEX as an Elf?

Online Doomsday

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2009, 10:22:55 AM »
Yeah, just keep on trotting out the same tired, ridiculous talking points over and over.  If you keep grinding at this quest, you will eventually gain the "My way of pretending to be an elf is better than your way of pretending to be an elf" achievement.

 Warning - while you were reading 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Wow guys.

Now to actually reply to that quoted post...


Offline Cythieus

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2009, 10:26:09 AM »
May I suggest, then, that you may not know enough about the history of D&D to put your issues into proper context?  Has it occurred to you that if WoW & D&D resemble each other to some degree, it's because of their deeply intertwined common ancestry?  The whole genre of CRPGs and later MMOs was heavily informed by D&D and other tabletop RPGs.  If there's been some cross-pollination, why would that be crazy or even a bad idea?

Saying your complaints are valid don't make them so.  A lot of people making a complaint doesn't make it invalid, it makes it repetitive and annoying, especially when they feel the need to spout off about it in unrelated threads. 


I actually do know a lot about D&D's history, just never was a community person when it came to the game. I've been playing RPG video games since I was just out of diapers (FFI waaaaaaaaaay back when) my first encounters with D&D were my brothers old books which I was forbidden to touch and in boy scouts later where we were instructed by our over zealous leader it was demonic. But I read back on these things and look at them because at the heart of it, many games still work on the D&D engine.

I only started playing so late in life because people either were rude and wouldn't teach me how or no one else knew how.

Offline WyzardWhately

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2009, 10:28:13 AM »
A huge problem I had with 3.5 was many of the interesting aspects, didn't work well in game. For instance one of my favorite classes concept wise is the Swashbuckler. But I have had DM's disallow them on the grounds that they don't carry enough weight in the party. Then the Half-Elf, I love the idea of a mixed race like that where you get to role play what the aspects of that culture would mean. But why take it when you will end up with one more feat for being Human or better DEX as an Elf?

Well, the deep underlying problem is that there are too many ways that trying to pursue your concept will cause your character to be underpowered.  It's a shame and a waste to punish people for using the options they're given in the books.

Offline Decrepitdan

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2009, 10:48:26 AM »
I will throw my hat into the ring with this tidbit - WoW was directly studied by the developers of 4.0. Its in their production notes.
As an aside, are there any good 3.5 games going on out there?

Offline Cythieus

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Request :)
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2009, 10:50:20 AM »
I will throw my hat into the ring with this tidbit - WoW was directly studied by the developers of 4.0. Its in their production notes.
As an aside, are there any good 3.5 games going on out there?

Supposed to be one starting up, I was looking for a super high powered campaign and I made a character for one that might not start for a few weeks. But I might have my plate full too.