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Author Topic: A Great Article on National Healthcare  (Read 5272 times)

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Offline SakiaWarnerTopic starter

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A Great Article on National Healthcare
« on: August 29, 2009, 07:52:24 AM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082101778.html?sub=AR

This article is so very intelligent.
Some of the things said in here are so very freaking true and for all of those who complain about a national health care system... look at some of the facts in here and think about it.

This is the biggest indication of the issues in our country in one sentence.

The key difference is that foreign health insurance plans exist only to pay people's medical bills, not to make a profit. The United States is the only developed country that lets insurance companies profit from basic health coverage.

Of course the problem now is how to fix a system bent on profit.. when the entire system is flawed?

This paragraph really hit home.. and is the honest to goodness truth

Which, in turn, punctures the most persistent myth of all: that America has "the finest health care" in the world. We don't. In terms of results, almost all advanced countries have better national health statistics than the United States does. In terms of finance, we force 700,000 Americans into bankruptcy each year because of medical bills. In France, the number of medical bankruptcies is zero. Britain: zero. Japan: zero. Germany: zero.



But still a good read.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 07:54:44 AM by SakiaWarner »

Offline limondrop

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2009, 11:24:48 AM »
wow- GREAT read.

I needed that.

Online Vekseid

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2009, 12:40:21 PM »
The bankruptcy counts are telling - a significant portion of hospital expenses go towards nonpayment issues. Insurers take a 30% cut while hospitals struggle to get by on 3% or less. The costs due to lost prevention can currently only be guessed at, and the same is true for the gains in productivity.

It would not surprise me to see a single payer system bring about a new economic revolution in the United States.

Offline The Overlord

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2009, 01:10:36 PM »
Quote
As Americans search for the cure to what ails our health-care system, we've overlooked an invaluable source of ideas and solutions: the rest of the world. All the other industrialized democracies have faced problems like ours, yet they've found ways to cover everybody -- and still spend far less than we do.

This is the opening phrase and probably the key point. The powers that be here in the medical sector are just plain happy with what's going on, and this is going to require some level of force to rip it down and rebuild.

Quote
1. It's all socialized medicine out there.

2. Overseas, care is rationed through limited choices or long lines.

These are standard issue and hidebound conservative arguments against health care reform. For one thing we're hard coded since the Cold War to automatically believe socialism = bad, even if there's some merits to it. A large slice of the Right is just too stupid to think for itself and just perpetuates the paranoia spewed by the most vocal among them.


Quote
3. Foreign health-care systems are inefficient, bloated bureaucracies.


This has to be my absolute favorite part. Pot calling kettle black. You've got something wrong with your head if you can't see this in the current system.

Offline Caeli

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2009, 03:41:15 PM »
I have personal experience with inefficient and bureaucracy, unfortunately.

I thought this article made a good read. :-) I enjoy the Washington Post's (and NY Times') Op-Eds.

Offline Revolverman

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2009, 05:46:06 PM »
Both Private and public health care are failures.


We need to find a system that doesn't cater to Big Pharm.

Online Vekseid

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2009, 07:41:31 PM »
Step 1) Disallow all drug advertisements
Step 2) Mandate efficacy reviews of all treatments
Step 3) Less Pharma profit.

Online Vekseid

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2009, 07:41:58 PM »
Also, patent busting >_>

Offline The Overlord

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2009, 07:52:23 PM »
Step 1) Disallow all drug advertisements
Step 2) Mandate efficacy reviews of all treatments
Step 3) Less Pharma profit.

Yeah you got fat cats getting fatter off this industry. Only way I see radical change here is you’re going to have to start knocking them off to drive home the message. You can’t pass legislation to control them or make them illegal, because they’ll just buy enough votes in congress to keep doing their good work.

Offline September

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2009, 06:05:37 AM »
Less pharma profit = less pharma.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2009, 04:59:53 PM »
Eliminating the prohibitions against Americans getting drugs from Canada would go a long way toward lowering drug prices.

One's position on this issue makes a good touchstone as to whether a person is truly a believer in free markets, or merely a believer in free markets so long as it profits the wealthy...

Offline Revolverman

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2009, 12:41:14 AM »
Personalty, I feel debating on how to pay for health care is stupid, the real issue is how do you make it cheaper.

Why is it everything falls in price, but health care continues to skyrocket?

Online Vekseid

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2009, 03:01:13 AM »
1) Medicare underpayments. Medicare pays for a majority of health care coverage in the country, but it only pays ~75% of actual costs. So hospitals need to charge everyone 20-30% more to cover it.
2) A lack of preventative care, combined with medicare. Basically, we insure people when they are 65, guaranteed... but not before then. This means that treatments that would have cost a trivial amount if they had been caught five to ten years earlier now cost tens to hundreds of thousands... driving up costs.
3) Bankruptcy, insolvency, and other nonpayment issues. This accounts for a good 5-10% of healthcare costs alone.
4) Pharmaceutical advertising. It needs to be banned. Seriously.
5) Insurance premiums and overhead - they take an additional 30% cut.

...there are other reasons, but it is a known fact that guaranteed health care would cut costs significantly - and soon. The political will for the public option actually comes from financial institutions - healthy people are more likely to pay their debts. Guaranteed healthcare is an economic driver, not a burden.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2009, 03:32:13 AM »
Less pharma profit = less pharma.

The American pharmaceutical companies that people are so quick to defend do not share the same loyalty.  Basic logic does state that if a company stands to make more money, they will produce more.  Yet this is not the case with pharmacy.  Currently the United States picks up the tab on research costs for most of the drugs produced.  Sure other countries contribute, but the United States is charged massive amounts of money to cover research.  This is because we will pay for it where as other countries say they will not. 

Canada gets the same drugs for so much cheaper that they can turn around and sell them to us at cost.  That is a ridiculous thing to have happen.  As consumers we are idiots if we do not try to take advantage of that savings.  When people did, the government suddenly claimed hazard and shut down the shipping.  Curious though that these are the same exact drugs we get, but because they went through Canada they are now dangerous.

Online RubySlippers

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2009, 08:51:46 AM »
What about the working poor and indigent poor (homless people, people forced to work part-time or at minimum wage at say 30 hours a week which is common in my area?

Last year I worked and earned a little over $12,400 for the year before taxes, how do you expect me and I work to cover co-pays and deductibles. Last month I had for the month to spend $38 after covering rent, utilities, food, transportation ($30 bus pass) and my cheap dial-up internet. I only have cable because its given to me by my folks free off a side cable and its BASIC service only.

For people like me the only real option is to make Medicaid income only based and expand it to say 133% of the Federal Poverty line. I will be blunt if they give me any other plan odds are high I would never use it. Even a $25 office visit is insane not including the costs of treatment which would likely eat up what tiny income I have left. I could afford a dollar or two here and there for doctors care and medicines but thats it. Homeless Americans are even worse off than I amand a bigger medical concern if they don't get care they will end up in the system costing a great deal of money.

Why not start there I looked at the numbers my group is the one group that is there that must be cared for. Most of the others choose not to have health coverage or employers don't provide it they should be treated seperately.

Offline Mr Self Destruct

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Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2009, 12:16:18 AM »
Do we really want the government in charge of our medical rights?  Granted, if you can afford insurance, you're good to go.  You pay your copay, you see your doctor, and take your medications.  If you don't have insurance, then yeah...you're pretty much screwed.  But with things like Medicare and Medicaid, along with the various state sponsored medical coverage for children, there are options.

Take a look at the cash-for-clunkers program that the government has recently conducted...

Every person who took advantage of the government's money is going to have to pay it back at the end of the year when tax season comes.  Granted, the idea was intended to be a good one...turn in your hunks for cash, and buy yourself a decent ride.  But nothing is for free, and there's going to be a lot of pissed off people come tax season.

Another example is the recent tax leniency on federal income tax for workers making less than a certain amount (can't remember exactly, I think it's near $200 a week).  Yeah, you might have more money now, but when the government comes calling for their share of your paycheck, guess what?  You pay, or you get busted for tax fraud.

Socialism is a bad thing.  Plain and simple.  Its been tried and it has failed!  Time and again, it has never worked, and a little research on the topic will prove just that.

Do we want the government having power over the people?  Do we want our freedoms squashed in the name of government sponsored security?  Is it worth having a security blanket provided by our nation's leaders, just to have to give up our fundamental rights as Americans?

Thomas Jefferson said it best, "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Offline Andy

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Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2009, 05:32:17 AM »
Do we really want the government in charge of our medical rights?  Granted, if you can afford insurance, you're good to go.  You pay your copay, you see your doctor, and take your medications.  If you don't have insurance, then yeah...you're pretty much screwed.  But with things like Medicare and Medicaid, along with the various state sponsored medical coverage for children, there are options.

Take a look at the cash-for-clunkers program that the government has recently conducted...

Every person who took advantage of the government's money is going to have to pay it back at the end of the year when tax season comes.  Granted, the idea was intended to be a good one...turn in your hunks for cash, and buy yourself a decent ride.  But nothing is for free, and there's going to be a lot of pissed off people come tax season.

Another example is the recent tax leniency on federal income tax for workers making less than a certain amount (can't remember exactly, I think it's near $200 a week).  Yeah, you might have more money now, but when the government comes calling for their share of your paycheck, guess what?  You pay, or you get busted for tax fraud.

Socialism is a bad thing.  Plain and simple.  Its been tried and it has failed!  Time and again, it has never worked, and a little research on the topic will prove just that.

Do we want the government having power over the people?  Do we want our freedoms squashed in the name of government sponsored security?  Is it worth having a security blanket provided by our nation's leaders, just to have to give up our fundamental rights as Americans?

Thomas Jefferson said it best, "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

I disagree, in Denmark, we have government ruled health care, that we pay through our taxes (mostly) i havent been hospitalized much, or have done much study on this, but so far, it works. What i can see youre pointing out is that a corroupt government cant handle social healthcare, where an un-corrupt one can.

Offline Mr Self Destruct

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Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2009, 06:55:10 AM »
What makes you think that American government isn't corrupt?

Offline Andy

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Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2009, 07:50:37 AM »
Never said it wasnt, since that has been obvious to me since Bush got elected, which is around when i started to get insterested in politics :P

Online RubySlippers

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2009, 01:54:01 PM »
How come socialism is bad ONLY when it doesn't benefit you - seems to be the consensus.

Medicare is ok if your a senior.

The VA seems fine if your a military veteran.

Medicaid is fine if your poor.

The fire department, police, military, public libraries, free public education, loans for college ...

do I NEED to go on?

Health care especially for the low income and indigent is important as is keeping costs under control and the free market as much as I like it can't fix this without strong government oversight. People are dying from preventable illnesses, suffering without care, going bankrupt over medical bills that have insurance etc. We need health care reform.

Offline Oniya

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Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2009, 01:57:59 PM »
And we certainly don't need lawmakers imposing fines for people who don't have health insurance.  Right now, it's a choice between health insurance and having a roof over our heads.

Online RubySlippers

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2009, 02:24:37 PM »
The goal is to get everyone on a health care plan one way or another. I think the fine is a bad idea but the need for universal coverage is necessary to help keep costs down. I think an easier way would be to have a BASIC pacakage at a good price everyone must take and make sure its affordable for a lower income family. All insurers must offer this at no profit but can make a profit on add-ons. Nothing fancy but a good solid basic plan.

Maybe something that would be one or two days pay for a person on minimum wage a month, more for a family but reasonable.

Offline Oniya

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Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2009, 02:53:44 PM »
Offer something affordable, and I'd jump on it.  Until then - I don't want to use my mandatory insurance to pay for treatment for malnutrition.

Offline The Overlord

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2009, 04:44:36 AM »

A very good follow-up to the article. If you vote against reform, then you deserve shit medical service, as you were too stupid and gullible to ignore the scare tactics.


The Truth Behind Public Option

Offline Marlow

Re: A Great Article on National Healthcare
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2009, 01:20:56 PM »
Socialism is a bad thing.  Plain and simple.  Its been tried and it has failed!  Time and again, it has never worked, and a little research on the topic will prove just that.
Uhm, no, it isn't. Yes, communism doesn't work, but when it's married with democracy, socialism works wonders. Look at Sweden. By far a very socialist nation, and it's not some evil satanic nation run by the anti-christ.

Americans need to stop looking at the past, and looking at the present. Socialism is an umbrella term for a lot of different types of government. Saying it all is bad is like saying all Americans are dumb, uneducated hicks. It just isn't true. Some Americans are, but the vast majority aren't.