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Author Topic: Ninjas v. Pirates  (Read 3054 times)

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Offline Captain Maltese

Re: Ninjas v. Pirates
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2009, 11:00:50 AM »
Well, obviously I didn't mean cannon fodder in the literal sense, being marched into the battlefield in ranks. They were specialists. But like the arcanii of the romans a thousand years earlier or terrorists of today, expendables without family ties.

Online Vekseid

Re: Ninjas v. Pirates
« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2009, 11:22:04 AM »
I didn't say it wouldn't.  I'm sure it'd still hurt like hell, but punching through chainmail would dampen a lot of the stopping power.  Besides, Napoleon and Wellington's armies were, again, 19th century forces.  Ninja, who can be traced back as far as the 600s, predate them by over a millenium.  My argument is that pirates of that era wouldn't have access to the inarguably superior weaponry you're championing.  It's like saying that Gauls were better than Romans because modern day France has a bigger nuclear stockpile than Italy.

Comparing periods regarding Japanese equipment is a quickly losing battle. At no point in world history has the Japanese archipelago held superior military equipment. They've had to make do with inferior ores, less of them, and greater cultural homogeneity. Japanese armors were always heavier, less maneuverable and less protective, and their weapons follow suit.

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Also, I'm about to go off on a massive tangent here, so bear with me.

It's true that the proliferation of firearms in Japan was one of the major forces that effectively eradicated the feudal era, alongside the Western traders that introduced them, but that brings me to why I disagree with the comparison between pirates and ninja: these are two archetypes of warriors separated not just by time or lifestyle.  There was a time that to sail the open seas meant encountering pirates, preparing merchant vessels for do-or-die battles against pirates which if popular culture has taught us anything they inevitably lose.  One begs to ask, what happened?  In the same vein, what happened to the vikings?  The Mongols?  Destroyed by their own reputation, by an ambitious force wanting to unite the world, be it the British Empire, the Normans, the Romans, or even the East India Trade Co.  Their kind were wiped from the face of the earth, as were the samurai.  But at the same time, what of the ninja?  Yes, Joe Schmuck on the street corner can learn how to fight like they did, what Edo-period gadgets have been popularized by modern culture are easily explained and replicated, but very little is known about the workings of the ninja, how they truly functioned in society. 
 
While famous pirates can be named in the dozens, like Francis Drake, Calico Jack, Black Sam Bellamy, etc; with ninja you get a list of names of people who could've been ninja, such as Hanzo Hattori, Sasuke Sarutobi or Kotaro Fuuma, and even then these were merely samurai with peculiar interests, or several warriors given one moniker, or may have simply never existed at all.  The point is, there is no one person in history that can be pointed at as an example of a ninja, only myths, legends, ghost stories.  They acted on a level of secrecy unprecedented in their time; for all anyone knows they could still exist today, if in a less romanticized form like modern pirates.  The bottom line is, pirates and ninja are separated not just by time, but by infamy.  As far as I'm concerned it'd be more apt to compare ninja to something like the Illuminati than with pirates.  After all, how can something vanish without a trace if it left next to no trace to begin with?

Yes, western society has no legends at all of mystical all-encompassing organizations working behind the scenes. The lack of evidence of their existence only means they are that much more powerful.

Fnord.

Offline TheWriter

Re: Ninjas v. Pirates
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2009, 11:54:13 AM »
Comparing periods regarding Japanese equipment is a quickly losing battle. At no point in world history has the Japanese archipelago held superior military equipment. They've had to make do with inferior ores, less of them, and greater cultural homogeneity. Japanese armors were always heavier, less maneuverable and less protective, and their weapons follow suit.
Of course.  Japan always has been an island nation, too small to show up on the radars of foreign empires.  Foreign empires who by contrast were always at each others' throats, and facilitated the constant innovation and improvement of warfare technology.  Necessity is the mother of invention, after all.  Having said that, they were still comparing equipment that were split by a millenium-wide time gap.  However backward 6th century Japanese technology was compared to 6th century tech elsewhere, it's still unfair to compare it to something that came around over a thousand years later.

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Yes, western society has no legends at all of mystical all-encompassing organizations working behind the scenes. The lack of evidence of their existence only means they are that much more powerful.

Fnord.
Yeah, I see that. :P  But I'm not using it as a measure of power, but as a measure of infamy.  Pirates and ninja take entirely different approaches to doing what they do; one makes damn sure you know who's attacking you, the other prefers their victims to have no idea.  Asking who does it better will only ever result in a battle of opinion.  Comparing ninja to the Illuminati might not fit particularly well, but that only serves to illustrate my point; that it's still more apt than comparing to pirates.  May as well compare red with blue.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 11:59:38 AM by TheWriter »

Online Vekseid

Re: Ninjas v. Pirates
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2009, 12:10:09 PM »
The modern concept of the ninja is a 20th century invention. For all the myth that surrounds it, it's very difficult for real organizations to compete with. Pirates, rooted in reality as they are, have all the weaknesses and frailties of mortal humans as a result. As you said yourself, there are no known ninja to have such revealed about them.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Ninjas v. Pirates
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2009, 12:24:22 PM »
The modern concept of the ninja is a 20th century invention. For all the myth that surrounds it, it's very difficult for real organizations to compete with. Pirates, rooted in reality as they are, have all the weaknesses and frailties of mortal humans as a result. As you said yourself, there are no known ninja to have such revealed about them.

True and it's been stated that the 'ninja' were also unabashed self promoters. Nothing like a propaganda campaign to keep your enemies off balance.

Of course, Pirates weren't above doing that too. I mean.. Look what Blackbeard did..he set fire to his beard while raiding.. scary guy.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 12:56:52 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Full Metal

Re: Ninjas v. Pirates
« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2009, 05:05:42 PM »
Hehe pirates vs ninjas hmm... well normally I would say ninjas since they are so much cooler, at least in the legends and myths, and most depictions of them.

But I think after recently having a pirate for a president.... Go Mad Capt'n.... who did such a great job, I think I'm going to have to say pirates today.  After all the guy actually went round on a make-shift ship on wheels.  Was fun.

Offline BluDragonX

Re: Ninjas v. Pirates
« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2009, 04:26:08 PM »
What hapens if a Ninja


and a Pirate


Have a  love child



You get a unstopible fighting force for on land or sea AKA


Offline JennyXoXo

Re: Ninjas v. Pirates
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2009, 10:45:53 AM »
ninja swords are better, dont u think?

They have the whole samurai background. Whereas pirates are just...pirates.

Offline Captain Maltese

Re: Ninjas v. Pirates
« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2009, 11:01:49 AM »
Define better?

Offline SleepyWei

Re: Ninjas v. Pirates
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2009, 12:50:31 PM »
ninja swords are better, dont u think?

They have the whole samurai background. Whereas pirates are just...pirates.

Ninja swords were inferior to the quality of pirates who had much better steel weapons. Furthermore, ninjas did not have a samurai background. Most were either peasants or monks. Pirates were trained navy seamen who were laid off after wars.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Ninjas v. Pirates
« Reply #60 on: September 19, 2009, 11:44:10 AM »
Ninjas do it in their pajamas.