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Author Topic: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...  (Read 3265 times)

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Offline The Overlord

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2009, 07:04:45 AM »
*sigh*


Zakharra, don't take this personally, but there are times I think you like being obstinate for the sake of obstinate.


If you actually open a map of Asia and look at it, China has no major options on moving overland without sparking a major war. A war big enough to potentially cripple or kill them.

Canít go north, because that goes into either Russia or former Soviet territories which you can be damn sure the Russians will defend, if for no other reason than to make sure the Chinese donít get them. But there is oil and other valuables in some of those regions to make it more interesting.

Southwest isnít much of an option. Care to see what the second largest national population can do to the first? Attacking India would be suicide because they have the numbers to play the attrition game on their own soil, and that is a BAD military option to partake of.

Plus, want to place your bets on Pakistan? Would they stay out of it, or get nervous enough to set aside differences with India once there was enough Chinese troops on their border? I donít know the answer to that any more than you do, and please donít pretend you do, but either way both have enough nukes to kill a few million encroaching troops.

Further past, into the Middle East? Actually I wish they would, because it would turn the eyes of most suicide bombers and fanatics to Beijing, not NYC or Moscow. Have fun containing all the explosions going off in your country while most of your troops are trying to suppress the region. Unlike Fortress America, China wonít have a buffer zone of the first and second largest ocean to help screen who gets in or out, even if they shut down all air travel.


Japan is out of the question, because it would result in a devastating American attack. Last I checked, the American/Japanese defense pact is still in place. And while Chinaís eyes are turned to the Pacific, any bets on who might or might not want to take advantage of that further inland?


The only real option is south; specially Southeast Asia. Nobody would likely break a sweat if they took Burma, maybe even North Korea. But Vietnam, South KoreaÖthereís that specter of US intervention again.

That opens up the concept of transporting troops en masse by air or sea. Depending on where they were headed, the US could deny them landing. As it stands, we can drop more troops into Taiwan than China can.

And of course Taiwan is the lynchpin in all this. Would the US go all out if China took the island? Likely not, but we could make keeping the island VERY painful for them.


And as far as China not caring about war with the US, yes they would care. YES they would. Because our economies are linked enough that thereís no way either of us would survive it economically. The US arsenal running in overdrive could make their population of 1 billion plus into a few thousand stragglers, no matter what happens to the US. China would not just be damaged, China would be forever dead as a nation, and unlike the Islamic cuckoos, China would be under no illusion theyíre going to heaven as a dead nation.



« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 07:07:45 AM by The Overlord »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2009, 11:39:27 AM »
 Overlord, you are making the mistake of thinking the Chinese thinks as Westerners do. They don't.  You seem to be insisting that will look at things as we, and you do. They don't. They will act as they want and  if they think damaging their economy is worth it, they will start a war. Casualties mean nothing to them. They are not Westerners. Period. As long as they are victorious, it's likely to be worth the cost.

 What does China want? As I see it, they want Taiwan and will make a play to get it. Forcefully if they have to. This is one thing the Chinese military, the navy in particular, is gearing up for. To defeat the US Navy if they do make that forceful attempt. They want oil and other resources. So far they don't have to use military force to get it, but if they have to and they feel they can do it, they will do so. Also, Russia  is much weaker than it was during the 1980's. If they felt they could take a bite out of Russia or out of the former Soviet republics in Central Asia, they would.

 China has it's eye on the South China sea and it can expand south into Southeast Asia. The Vietnam, Myamar and Thailand area.

 The only land opponent they face that could seriously hurt them is Russia. India is to fragile and their military isn't up to par with the Chinese. India might have more peopel now, but that does not translate to a strong and effective military.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2009, 12:01:17 PM »
It's not only the fighting force that needs to be considered.  There's the entire infrastructure that goes with a military campaign, spread over the expanse of Asia.  You have to be able to get your soldiers into place.  You have to be able to supply them.  Even if you don't care about casualties, you have to replace troops that fall.  You have to keep hold of whatever territory you've already taken.  All of this while dealing with people familiar with the terrain and defending their homes.

Land wars in Asia - historically, a bad idea.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2009, 01:55:42 PM »
Ground forces wise.. no one in the surrounding areas could stop a chinese advance. Period. They have the numbers, the gear, the planning and most of all they have the will power to do what they want.

Taiwan.. oh you BET they want it, but they want it INTACT. The economic benefits of getting that 'renegade province' back intact are the only reason they havent done anything militarily yet. YET.

The Chinese army is a MASSIVE force.

The Chinese navy..not so impressive. Right now.

And the Chinese aren't like westerners who look in 'short time' view. They are more than wiling to way 10, 20 or 30 years to make their move. Cause once they do.. you know they aren't going to be stopped by anything short of the other side literally pounding them into mush.

Offline SleepyWei

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2009, 02:00:31 PM »
Quote
Land wars in Asia - historically, a bad idea.

That's only if you don't know the terrain. The Vietnam War was partially so difficult for the US because of the fact that US troops knew nothing about the layout while the Vietnamese did. I think that China, being much closer to the Southeastern countries, would have a much easier time invading them.

And as for that matter, how the hell did this thread change from Chinese internet censorship to "China is going to invade everyone and what the hell is US going to do about it?"

Point remains that China's policies to their own populace is their business and other countries should just butt out. Raising a big stink about this only shows that people can't mind their own business and the US should be focusing on their own troubles instead of looking for the wrongs of another country.

Quote
And the Chinese aren't like westerners who look in 'short time' view.

And that basically sums up the cultural thought of the Chinese. They don't look for short time answers. They always look into the future and decide if their decisions would remain beneficial to themselves in decades to come.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2009, 02:05:45 PM »
And that basically sums up the cultural thought of the Chinese. They don't look for short time answers. They always look into the future and decide if their decisions would remain beneficial to themselves in decades to come.

EXACTLY. That is why the Chinese aren't really 'communist' anymore. The party leadership (the guys on top) don't care what you call them. (As long as it's 'Boss', or 'Guy in Charge'). They will do whatever they have to do to grow in strength, improve their conditions and most importantly. STAY ON TOP.

Right now, they got NO reason to expand. (except maybe to the north for those resources). They are the worlds LARGEST growing economy and marketplace.  They are only going to become bigger and more financially influential. Why worry about sending your tanks into India..when you can outproduce them?

Offline SleepyWei

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2009, 02:12:04 PM »
Well... economically, China hasn't been communist since 1978 when Deng Xiaoping made those reforms. Also while people seem to think that China's leadership is totalitarian, the real power lies not in their politicians, but in the business leaders. Chinese leaders can't even raise a finger against the business tycoons in China because if they do, those companies can threaten to fire their workers. Now that China actually has a large population in the middle class, they aren't willing to threaten the business of large corporations. It's kind of like the US and their problems with big business in the past.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2009, 02:15:59 PM »
Well... economically, China hasn't been communist since 1978 when Deng Xiaoping made those reforms. Also while people seem to think that China's leadership is totalitarian, the real power lies not in their politicians, but in the business leaders. Chinese leaders can't even raise a finger against the business tycoons in China because if they do, those companies can threaten to fire their workers. Now that China actually has a large population in the middle class, they aren't willing to threaten the business of large corporations. It's kind of like the US and their problems with big business in the past.

The only 'dark spot' on the Chinese horizon as far as I can tell is keeping the various ethnic groups happy. (A lot of folks don't realize just how ethinically diverse China is.. or how much some of them hate one another) and the fact that some scientists project as much as an 8 to 10 to 1 disparity in some regions between males and females. (Realistic figures are closer to 4 to 1 over the next 20 years, I once jokingly pointed out there will be 'no ugly chinese women' one day.. all of them will have LOTS of men after them)


Offline Zakharra

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2009, 03:24:12 PM »
And as for that matter, how the hell did this thread change from Chinese internet censorship to "China is going to invade everyone and what the hell is US going to do about it?"

 It's the internet!  ;D

Offline Oniya

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Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2009, 04:39:48 PM »
And as for that matter, how the hell did this thread change from Chinese internet censorship to "China is going to invade everyone and what the hell is US going to do about it?"

It's the internet!  ;D

http://xkcd.com/214/  [/hijack]

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2009, 04:54:43 PM »
People forget we have one threat on the table if we go to war to counter a major engagement - our nuclear arsenal.

We could obliterate China as a nation with just several ballistic missle submarines not to mention our land based and bomber dropped nuclear weapons, cruise missles and others options. Mutually Assured Destruction is frankly our best defense from such a war.

Online HairyHeretic

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Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2009, 06:08:11 PM »
And the whole mutually assured destruction thing means that you don't have the nuclear arsenal as a tactical choice. You hit the button, so do they, and it's game over for everyone.

Even the prospect of a tactical nuclear weapons can easily get out of control, and escalate to a strategic level very quickly.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2009, 06:31:56 PM »
Overlord, you are making the mistake of thinking the Chinese thinks as Westerners do. They don't.  You seem to be insisting that will look at things as we, and you do. They don't. They will act as they want and  if they think damaging their economy is worth it, they will start a war. Casualties mean nothing to them. They are not Westerners. Period. As long as they are victorious, it's likely to be worth the cost.

 

Somehow youíve apparently appointed yourself as the forum expert on how the Chinese think, but more important than that, in a war with a major power like Russia or the United States, they will NOT be victorious. They have no chance at victory with a power that size. Victory being defined as something more than having your country reduced to ashes and 90% of your population gone.

Period. End of story.

Offline SleepyWei

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2009, 07:25:43 PM »
Somehow youíve apparently appointed yourself as the forum expert on how the Chinese think, but more important than that, in a war with a major power like Russia or the United States, they will NOT be victorious. They have no chance at victory with a power that size. Victory being defined as something more than having your country reduced to ashes and 90% of your population gone.

Period. End of story.


Just so you know, China has the world's largest military. In terms of military power, I think China stands a chance in fighting US and Russia.

And for your argument on survivability, well like Hairy said:
And the whole mutually assured destruction thing means that you don't have the nuclear arsenal as a tactical choice. You hit the button, so do they, and it's game over for everyone.

Even the prospect of a tactical nuclear weapons can easily get out of control, and escalate to a strategic level very quickly.


Offline consortium11Topic starter

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2009, 08:35:15 PM »
People forget we have one threat on the table if we go to war to counter a major engagement - our nuclear arsenal.

We could obliterate China as a nation with just several ballistic missle submarines not to mention our land based and bomber dropped nuclear weapons, cruise missles and others options. Mutually Assured Destruction is frankly our best defense from such a war.

Em, even without the nuclear mad, China can cripple the US and in fact pretty much the entire world by either simply not buying or recalling all the t-bills.

The US's entire system is funded by China... if the Chinese ever felt the need to press that button the entire US system stops... right there... right then. The US's only option would be to default which means that no-one would buy US treasury notes... and the US falls apart.

China hasn't funded America's spending for no reason at all.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2009, 08:40:57 PM »
Em, even without the nuclear mad, China can cripple the US and in fact pretty much the entire world by either simply not buying or recalling all the t-bills.

The US's entire system is funded by China... if the Chinese ever felt the need to press that button the entire US system stops... right there... right then. The US's only option would be to default which means that no-one would buy US treasury notes... and the US falls apart.

China hasn't funded America's spending for no reason at all.

Yup.. Economic warfare.. Ah.. lovely fun

Offline Zakharra

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2009, 09:14:19 PM »
Somehow youíve apparently appointed yourself as the forum expert on how the Chinese think, but more important than that, in a war with a major power like Russia or the United States, they will NOT be victorious. They have no chance at victory with a power that size. Victory being defined as something more than having your country reduced to ashes and 90% of your population gone.

Period. End of story.

 No. I'm no military expert, but I do know, that China does not think like us. A fact you seem to be ignoring or not getting. They do not think like westerners and do not have our sensabilities. You insist on saying they would look at things as we do. It's been pointed out by me and others, that they do not think that way.

 The US's only military power overseas is the Navy. Against Russia and China, the nuclear option isn't a factor in a war. Unless We, the US, launch the first one. China's savy enough to know we would not respond in a nucleaer fashion unless provoked, and even then it's iffy if we would respond. China's been building to take on the US  Navy and if they could defeat or reduce the Western Pacific Naval forces, they'd have effectively free reign for awhile.

 In a war against Russia, there'd be horrific casualties but again, what they deem acceptable and we deem acceptable are two very different things. China's army is much larger than Russia's and fairly well equipped.
 
 
And the whole mutually assured destruction thing means that you don't have the nuclear arsenal as a tactical choice. You hit the button, so do they, and it's game over for everyone.

Even the prospect of a tactical nuclear weapons can easily get out of control, and escalate to a strategic level very quickly.

 Exactly. As long as they didn't use tactical nukes, we wouldn't either.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2009, 09:15:55 PM »
Em, even without the nuclear mad, China can cripple the US and in fact pretty much the entire world by either simply not buying or recalling all the t-bills.

The US's entire system is funded by China... if the Chinese ever felt the need to press that button the entire US system stops... right there... right then. The US's only option would be to default which means that no-one would buy US treasury notes... and the US falls apart.

China hasn't funded America's spending for no reason at all.

 Which Chjina would do if they thought they's come out of any turmoil on top of the heap.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2009, 09:30:35 PM »
No. I'm no military expert, but I do know, that China does not think like us. A fact you seem to be ignoring or not getting. They do not think like westerners and do not have our sensabilities. You insist on saying they would look at things as we do. It's been pointed out by me and others, that they do not think that way.

 The US's only military power overseas is the Navy. Against Russia and China, the nuclear option isn't a factor in a war. Unless We, the US, launch the first one. China's savy enough to know we would not respond in a nucleaer fashion unless provoked, and even then it's iffy if we would respond. China's been building to take on the US  Navy and if they could defeat or reduce the Western Pacific Naval forces, they'd have effectively free reign for awhile.

 In a war against Russia, there'd be horrific casualties but again, what they deem acceptable and we deem acceptable are two very different things. China's army is much larger than Russia's and fairly well equipped.
 
 
 Exactly. As long as they didn't use tactical nukes, we wouldn't either.

Valid points.

My first cruise in the Navy, we spent a good chunk of the deployment off the coast of Taiwan while they held elections. The Chinese played it as 'if we decided to act, you'd be on the bottom of the sea before sunrise'.

A lot of folks seemed to agree (in the media anyway) and if you thought their army was their navy you'd have to agree. Historically though, the Chinese haven't ever been big into naval action (Why do you think the Japanese aren't another province? The weather between the two countries sank more than a few fleets and in the end China didn't need the trouble for so little a country.)

The Chinese KNOW that navy wise they are weaker than us. And they are working on it HARD. One of the points that worried me as an ASW aircraft tech (Anti-Sub Warfare) was the attitude outside the community that with the russian navy out of business that there was no need for us anymore. All I had to think was..the Chinese bought over a dozen subs from the Russians, quiet stealthy diesels, half of which were promptly taken apart so they could build their own.

Oh yeah, the long view is coming into play. The Chinese aren't always going to be a 'weak' naval power, and when it comes time for the Dragon to flex it's claws.. well I hope that we have SOME asw skills left.

Offline Serephino

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2009, 09:38:36 PM »
My this particular thread has been active today...  My thoughts are this...

First of all, the Chinese are crazy.  That opinion comes from things I've seen on the news, and from dealing with internet farmers playing WoW (pauses for the collective groan).  They actually have office buildings full of people in diapers playing these online games to farm and sell that game's currency.  How do I know this?  My boyfriend actually knew one of these people.  They 'work' 48 hours straight with no breaks for very little pay.  Us Westerners would consider this crazy, but to them, it's a legitimate business and a good job, which goes to the point that they don't think like us.  This Chinese woman told my boyfriend about hacks they have, and that if you buy from them a few times, they'll sneak in a few extra charges, hoping you either won't notice or think you bought a third time and just forgot.  Basically, they steal from us stupid lazy Americans and don't bat an eyelash. 

It was speculated that part of why China imposed internet restrictions was to try and deal with these internet farmers.  Our economies are closely tied, and these thieving little bastards are causing a major headache for the companies that run these games. 

Also, people tend to forget that even though we may have a powerful military, it's spread pretty thin right now.  We've been focusing on Afghanastan and Iraq.  We've been sending our National Guard over there for crying out loud, and they're not supposed to leave the country.  Not a day goes by that I don't see an Army commercial because they need the manpower badly. 

I'm not trying to start up a debate about Iraq, but rather point out that the war is not only killing us with the cost, but has left us sitting ducks.  A large majority of our military is in the Middle East right now.  I suppose we could fight China, but we'd have to pull out of the Middle East, which is so unstable right now that would most likely bite us in the ass somehow. 

And was no one paying attention in school when they talked about the Korean War?  Everything was fine and dandy until the North Koreans got pushed into China, then came back with the Chinese army.  History books tell us how well that went.  And you may say that this was almost 60 years ago, but even then our military was considered more advanced.  But unlike us who actually care about bringing our soldiers home alive, the Chinese government doesn't, and they outnumber us like 6 to 1.  Look at what they do to their own people.  They can afford heavy losses.  Hell, they'd probably see it as a good way to exercise a little population control. 

They've become and industrial nation and are competing for resources.  And like I said before, they're theiving little bastards.  If they think they have something to gain by say, invading Taiwan, and it would only cost them like 1/3 of their population, chances are, they might think it was worth it. It might cripple their economy short term, but they'd probably think that by gaining those extra resources they could rebuild.   

Offline The Overlord

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2009, 10:04:42 PM »
No. I'm no military expert, but I do know, that China does not think like us. A fact you seem to be ignoring or not getting. They do not think like westerners and do not have our sensabilities. You insist on saying they would look at things as we do. It's been pointed out by me and others, that they do not think that way.

 The US's only military power overseas is the Navy. Against Russia and China, the nuclear option isn't a factor in a war. Unless We, the US, launch the first one. China's savy enough to know we would not respond in a nucleaer fashion unless provoked, and even then it's iffy if we would respond. China's been building to take on the US  Navy and if they could defeat or reduce the Western Pacific Naval forces, they'd have effectively free reign for awhile.

 In a war against Russia, there'd be horrific casualties but again, what they deem acceptable and we deem acceptable are two very different things. China's army is much larger than Russia's and fairly well equipped.
 


Youíre still making some very bland and blunt assumptions about what China may or may not do. One of the crucial axioms of war is that a clever enemy never does what is expected of him.

Youíre also making a hell of a gamble that the US would not use nukes if pushed to the brink- I understand that that is the general opinion of many terror groups today; that the US will not go nuclear to win the terror war.

Interesting gamble- itís an all or nothing bet, really. If youíre right youíre right, but if youíre wrong youíre fucked.


I am reminded of a quote by British journalist Tony Parsons not too long after 9/11-


Quote
AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength.

American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for.  How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11?  How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world.  I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war.  Not a "war on terrorism".  A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell", if America attacks Iraq.  Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.


In some ways I still think we should have cut a burning path through them for it all, but thatís the angry and conservative Mr. Hyde in me that surfaces here and there, and needs to be pushed back into his place.

The point is, America showed the world restraint eight years ago, when the world didnít really deserve our restraint or mercy. Do you dare, Zakharra? Do you really care to see if we will show that level of restraint again if a major power threatens us?


I sure the hell donít.


And we wouldnít need to actually use nukes. We have enough other weapons besides nukes that could cripple China and effectively end it as a modern nation. Donít fool yourself. Somehow you seem to think that Chinaís size or philosophy makes it exempt from Mutually Assured Destruction, or at least a deathblow.


Iím still trying to figure that one out, to no avail. Debating with you is twice as curious as watching a dog chase its tail, but not nearly half as fun. Iíve said my peace on this one, and further watching our opinions bounce back and forth over the net like a tennis ball is pointless.

*exits thread*

« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 10:08:29 PM by The Overlord »

Offline SleepyWei

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2009, 10:21:09 PM »
My this particular thread has been active today...  My thoughts are this...

First of all, the Chinese are crazy.  That opinion comes from things I've seen on the news, and from dealing with internet farmers playing WoW (pauses for the collective groan).  They actually have office buildings full of people in diapers playing these online games to farm and sell that game's currency.  How do I know this?  My boyfriend actually knew one of these people.  They 'work' 48 hours straight with no breaks for very little pay.  Us Westerners would consider this crazy, but to them, it's a legitimate business and a good job, which goes to the point that they don't think like us.  This Chinese woman told my boyfriend about hacks they have, and that if you buy from them a few times, they'll sneak in a few extra charges, hoping you either won't notice or think you bought a third time and just forgot.  Basically, they steal from us stupid lazy Americans and don't bat an eyelash. 

It was speculated that part of why China imposed internet restrictions was to try and deal with these internet farmers.  Our economies are closely tied, and these thieving little bastards are causing a major headache for the companies that run these games. 

Also, people tend to forget that even though we may have a powerful military, it's spread pretty thin right now.  We've been focusing on Afghanastan and Iraq.  We've been sending our National Guard over there for crying out loud, and they're not supposed to leave the country.  Not a day goes by that I don't see an Army commercial because they need the manpower badly. 

I'm not trying to start up a debate about Iraq, but rather point out that the war is not only killing us with the cost, but has left us sitting ducks.  A large majority of our military is in the Middle East right now.  I suppose we could fight China, but we'd have to pull out of the Middle East, which is so unstable right now that would most likely bite us in the ass somehow. 

And was no one paying attention in school when they talked about the Korean War?  Everything was fine and dandy until the North Koreans got pushed into China, then came back with the Chinese army.  History books tell us how well that went.  And you may say that this was almost 60 years ago, but even then our military was considered more advanced.  But unlike us who actually care about bringing our soldiers home alive, the Chinese government doesn't, and they outnumber us like 6 to 1.  Look at what they do to their own people.  They can afford heavy losses.  Hell, they'd probably see it as a good way to exercise a little population control. 

They've become and industrial nation and are competing for resources.  And like I said before, they're theiving little bastards.  If they think they have something to gain by say, invading Taiwan, and it would only cost them like 1/3 of their population, chances are, they might think it was worth it. It might cripple their economy short term, but they'd probably think that by gaining those extra resources they could rebuild.   


I'm Chinese too. Does that make me crazy? Does that make me a thieving little bastard? I'm more than a little offended that you go and type that the Chinese are crazy and thieves just because they became industrialized and are now finally becoming a world power.

Just because the Chinese government does what it does, the people still persevere, they keep drudging on and they survive, supporting their families and whatnot. Just because they're out there trying to make a honest living doesn't make them thieves. I think the thieves might be big business like Wal Mart that goes and practically makes them work for less than two bucks an hour while their corporation makes millions. Doesn't that seem like thievery to you?





Offline Zakharra

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2009, 01:26:27 AM »
Youíre still making some very bland and blunt assumptions about what China may or may not do. One of the crucial axioms of war is that a clever enemy never does what is expected of him.

Youíre also making a hell of a gamble that the US would not use nukes if pushed to the brink- I understand that that is the general opinion of many terror groups today; that the US will not go nuclear to win the terror war.

Interesting gamble- itís an all or nothing bet, really. If youíre right youíre right, but if youíre wrong youíre fucked.


I am reminded of a quote by British journalist Tony Parsons not too long after 9/11-AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength.

American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for.  How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11?  How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world.  I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war.  Not a "war on terrorism".  A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell", if America attacks Iraq.  Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.


 I know enough that China will not do what WE, the US, would do. They simply do not think that way. I know they want Taiwan in a bad way and if they had to, would take it militarily. You seem to be thinking we're fighting sometihng like the old Soviet Union. Which we aren't. The Soviets were more European than Asian in their outlook and we understood their stratagy. The Chinese are a different culture altogether.

 I can say with confidence that the US would never use nukes first, and with the President and Congress's wanting the world's good opinion, it's not likely we'd respond with nukes. Right now, the only weapons we have that can reach China are the US Pacific Fleet (carrier battle groups and subs) and some of the Air Force. The army and Marines are not a factor in any military conflict atm. Simply because there's no way for those two forces to reach China.


 
In some ways I still think we should have cut a burning path through them for it all, but thatís the angry and conservative Mr. Hyde in me that surfaces here and there, and needs to be pushed back into his place.

The point is, America showed the world restraint eight years ago, when the world didnít really deserve our restraint or mercy. Do you dare, Zakharra? Do you really care to see if we will show that level of restraint again if a major power threatens us?


I sure the hell donít.


And we wouldnít need to actually use nukes. We have enough other weapons besides nukes that could cripple China and effectively end it as a modern nation. Donít fool yourself. Somehow you seem to think that Chinaís size or philosophy makes it exempt from Mutually Assured Destruction, or at least a deathblow.


Iím still trying to figure that one out, to no avail. Debating with you is twice as curious as watching a dog chase its tail, but not nearly half as fun. Iíve said my peace on this one, and further watching our opinions bounce back and forth over the net like a tennis ball is pointless.

*exits thread*


 Unless we can reach China, we can't harm it. We don't have a MAD with China. Unless they attacked us first, with nukes. there's no way we would use nukes in retaliation. The nation that uses them first will be condemned by the entire world. And any nation that responds with as nuclear attack will be almost as soundly condemned. China's been working to prepare it's military to face down and defeat the US Navy. We loose the western fleet, we've lost the opening of any war.

 Me, personally, I'd use the conventional military and use the nuclear option as a last resort. Except in the case of high alttitude airbursts for the EMP effect and that only as a last option.

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Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2009, 03:48:05 AM »
Let's keep things civil folks. Points can be made without resorting to slurs upon an entire people.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Note: Don't go on the internet too much in China...
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2009, 04:57:53 PM »
Its always been sound military doctrine to respond to an overwhelming military conventional force with the use of tactical nuclear weapons and larger weapons if needed. And its legal to do as long as the targets are military ones.

But really why worry about China we don't have to defend Taiwan treaty or not and we don't have to fight for them. They are not the Japanese in WW2 as long as we can utterly destroy them if they decide to invade the United States that is enough. And I'm confident if their fleets were coming here with that kind of force to seriously invade I would expect our nation to hit the fraking bastards with everything we have. MAD can work I just feel it should be clear you mass to invade or use WMD's on us first you die. Otherwise you leave us alone we will leave you alone.

As for this issue its noe of our business this is an internal Chinese matter.